I feel I don't love Jesus at all... Yes, really!

[B_T]

I haven't been here for quite a long time... And actually, I don't want to discuss anything with Christians. The reason is - I actually don't love Jesus.

Why? With or without the lake of fire, the Bible remains full with violence.

What do I mean? Situations like this:

1. If you don't hate your parents, you are unworthy to me...

2. The situations when a man had to bury his father and Jesus told him - you must abandon everything and you must not look back... Really, this disgusts me!

3. The situation in Acts - when a person and his family is killed because he took some money for himself...

So what? If I have to be honest, I don't love Jesus and I don't want to follow him, because he is a brutal and cruel sadist...

[CHB]

Boy, the ET'rs would have a field day with what you just said  :grin:   I hear some of them say all the time that "there are some people who just don't want nothing to do with God, they don't want to be saved. Therefore they send themselves to hell".

CHB

[martincisneros]

I haven't been here for quite a long time... And actually, I don't want to discuss anything with Christians. The reason is - I actually don't love Jesus.

Why? With or without the lake of fire, the Bible remains full with violence.

What do I mean? Situations like this:

1. If you don't hate your parents, you are unworthy to me...

2. The situations when a man had to bury his father and Jesus told him - you must abandon everything and you must not look back... Really, this disgusts me!

3. The situation in Acts - when a person and his family is killed because he took some money for himself...

So what? If I have to be honest, I don't love Jesus and I don't want to follow him, because he is a brutal and cruel sadist...

ok

[B_T]

It's not exactly OK, because I still do care about what's going on with me...

For example, I realize that he's indeed our savior, that he died for us... and he wants us to love him... and that's the problem

[Nathan]

Could it be that it's your mind that has conjured up images that God didn't intend?  Could it be that it's not my physical parents . . but my carnal ones . . .the origin of my carnal self?

The dead burying the dead could also have a deeper meaning than what's implied . . .spiritual dead burying their own dead.  Those upon whom their enforced labor and laws eventually killed . .spiritually.


When I see a man and wife in Scripture, it speaks to me of my soul and spirit . . .they're married to one another.  And when there is wickedness in me to the core, as the picture portrays there in Acts . . .death occurs.

I'm not convinced you don't love Jesus  . .because of your own confession that you "do care what's going on in you" . . . .that is not an experience flesh can create on it's own without the light of the Father igniting it.

The truth is . . .Christ is in you whether your mind acknowledges it or not.  All you need here is a change of vision . . .rather than seeing death and hate in these passages . . .look for the life and love that the veil of the natural realm covers.  It's always there . .and once you "behold" it . .once you fix your attention on the light that shines on you, you will become like the light you behold so that everything you see and read will have light in it rather than death.  It's not a matter of understanding . . it's just a matter of faith . .of "letting".  "Let" God reveal it to you.

It's not Jesus that you don't love . . .it's the "image" that your mind has conjured up of a Jesus you don't love.

[martincisneros]

B_T,

I meant "ok" in the sense that I heard you, wasn't judging, and have understood others to have felt that way before.  Perhaps I've even felt that way before during seasons of my life that I'm not in touch with any more.  He defines loving Him as obeying Him throughout the New Testament.  John chapters 13-17 come to mind.  Colossians 3:12-17, 1John 2:5; 4:17, et. al.  Is the bottomline of your relationship with Him that you'll do everything He tells you to do when you understand that it's Him telling you to do it, and as He makes it clear exactly how He wants this or that put into practice?  From His perspective, that's loving Him, whether your emotions have fully caught up with the experience of His Word and Spirit yet or not. 

There's never been and perhaps never will be a relationship where people maintain their honeymoon emotions, and many people think that they're not in love with one another because they're not in some type of heat or ecstacy or whatever that they assume is supposed to happen on an emotional level when they're still fulfilling the roles of looking out for the interests of one another fervently, enthusiastically, etc.  The emotional side will always periodically flow with anyone that you spend the most time with, but it won't necessarily stay at an emotional boil. 

If you're wanting more enthusiasm about your time, relationship, experience with God, then that's where extra time in thanksgiving, praise, fasting, etc. comes in.  If you're defining love as feeling good about all that He's ever done, is doing, or will ever do, then I'm not sure if anyone in the history of the world has that kind of relationship with either Him or anyone else.  In every relationship that I've ever known anything about, it's when people actually got all of the dirty details out into the open between each other that then the relationship had the beginnings of a chance of working out.  If you can't see yourself ever having another god before Him, then that's also love for Him, whatever you're feeling, not understanding of His ways, etc.

[WhiteWings]

I very well understand you B_T. I wanna add the flood and Sodom and Gomorra to the list.

Martin

then that's where extra time in thanksgiving, praise, fasting, etc. comes in.

I think thanksgiving is very hard when you feel there is nothing to thank for. Or even much to be angry about....?

[Raggedy Anne]

B_T - I think the problem is seeing the scriptures with a carnal mind.  I used to be in the same boat.   

Jesus said, "The words I speak to you are SPIRIT and LIFE".  If you read the scriptures with a literal mind-set, you will wind up feeling the way you do.  I think the scriptures are meant to KILL, however -- to kill the carnal man who cannot receive the things of God.  Remember, the word of God is said to be a double-edged sword.  I remember when the scriptures were nothing but death to me.  Ugh!  It was not pleasant.

Peace -
Anne

[Paul Hazelwood]

So what? If I have to be honest, I don't love Jesus and I don't want to follow him, because he is a brutal and cruel sadist...

I certainly understand, whether people agree with me or not I have come to see the bible as a complete metaphor for the destruction of our imperfect ways.  Whether I can compare this verse with that verse whether I know if it was the galations the sodomites the levites the termites, I don't care.

I did throw it all out so I could see love and  know that I don't have to explain it all, understand it all and I am not at the mercy of someone saying "you need to see it my way" (without actually saying it of course)

Seek love, filter everything with love, desire love,  and that will get anyone on a proper course.

[Zeek]

Seek love, filter everything with love, desire love,  and that will get anyone on a proper course.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

RA, (ermmm....  :laughing7:)

Carnal and spiritual. Good I trust you on that.
The things B_T mentioned no doubt have a fantastic spiritual meaning.
But that doesn't blot out that the carnal side of the story is an ugly one....!?

[martincisneros]

WhiteWings, On what you said to me:

Anyone can go there and stay there.  I've been doing it for the last couple of days.  What matters is whether or not we're going to rise above that, or spiritually die of bitterness, unforgiveness, and everything else that's involved in that kind of self poisoning.  God promised me something incredibly beautiful a couple of years ago.  Things look like the exact opposite on every imaginable level right now.  Wouldn't be hard for me to have a book burning today!  But in one sense, Abraham had to wait 25 years for what God promised him.  At least the first phase of it that was right in front of him.  In another sense, Abraham's still waiting. 

I had to decide again last night, or really really early this morning about something God promised me roughly two years ago, that even if it's 25 years from now, I'll still be right where I SAID I'd be a couple of years ago.  I do realize that not everyone's unfulfilled expectations have a number of "thus saith the Lord" right behind it to which all of the heaven of heavens is genuinely obligated for.  But whatever it is, over 90% of it bottomlines in love, protection, provision, a nurturing environment, and an environment where one's genuine gifts can soar like an eagle. 

Some of the things that people want are a little screwy, but they'll bottomline in an idea that they'll provide some or all of the above that I've just listed.  He'll get absolutely all of us there, no matter what.  Even if it means maturing us past certain things.  My central childhood dream was of being a rock star that was bigger than Elvis, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, etc., etc.  That was gone the moment that I was filled with the Holy Spirit.  For some people, it'll only be enhanced through that kind of encounter with God.  But for me, there was an entirely different plan.  But why I wanted what I wanted and why God wanted me where He's moving me -- all of it came down to a view of where these things would be promoted, [whether my view or God's view,]: love, protection, provision, a nurturing environment, and an environment where one's genuine gifts can soar like an eagle.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: B_T, something that made a difference in me was when I had the revelation that I personally couldn't love Him the way I should. When Jesus said you can do NOTHING without Me, He didn't mean a few things, or some things, He meant NO THINGS. So I asked Him to give me the love the love Him with, and He did. Blessings

[Cardinal]

I think thanksgiving is very hard when you feel there is nothing to thank for. Or even much to be angry about....?

:cloud9: Are you breathing WW? For me of late, that is literally something to be thankful for. The thanksgiving that does the most is when you feel that way, because then it's a SACRIFICE of thanksgiving and praise, and He will move more for you then, than when it's all happy and wonderful. God inhabits the praises of His people, and if we keep praising Him until we have a "breakthrough", it is unbelievable the peace and joy that hit. Just my   :2c:  Blessings.....

[WhiteWings]

Martin

then that's where extra time in thanksgiving, praise, fasting, etc. comes in.

I don't want to hijack B_Ts thread so I'll make it quick.
Is it possible that you start a new thread on what those blue words actually mean. I surely can look them up in a dictionary but I feel I'm not getting the full picture.
Assuming it's not personal stuf you don't want to make public I want to know that you actually do or don't think/do when you do those things.

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Are you breathing WW?

Not when reading your posts. They simply take my breath away  :laughing7:

[Raggedy Anne]

I certainly understand, whether people agree with me or not I have come to see the bible as a complete metaphor for the destruction of our imperfect ways.  Whether I can compare this verse with that verse whether I know if it was the galations the sodomites the levites the termites, I don't care.

The TERMITES!  Too funny.  I'm a TERMITE because my MORTALITY is TERMINAL!  On a more serious note, I feel that I would like to start a new thread on DEATH soon because we seem to be having a lot of varying thoughts around here on the purpose of death, and nothing is without a good purpose, including death.    Were it not for death, how would sin in the flesh find an end?  Death is the wages of sin.   I think the wages of sin are always the same as is the gift of God (eternal life), which is to KNOW GOD and have fellowship with him.

More later -
Anne

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: Are you breathing WW?

Not when reading your posts. They simply take my breath away  :laughing7:

:cloud9: Awwww........you're quick, I'm going to have to keep my eye on YOU  :winkgrin: :icon_jokercolor:

[Molly]

I had to decide again last night, or really really early this morning about something God promised me roughly two years ago, that even if it's 25 years from now, I'll still be right where I SAID I'd be a couple of years ago.

I'm ten years counting and still waiting... :cloud9:

My central childhood dream was of being a rock star that was bigger than Elvis, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, etc., etc.  That was gone the moment that I was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Really? I disagree.

:Urock:


And, Jesus is wonderful!

[MacPherson]

I haven't been here for quite a long time... And actually, I don't want to discuss anything with Christians. The reason is - I actually don't love Jesus.

Why? With or without the lake of fire, the Bible remains full with violence.

What do I mean? Situations like this:

1. If you don't hate your parents, you are unworthy to me...

2. The situations when a man had to bury his father and Jesus told him - you must abandon everything and you must not look back... Really, this disgusts me!

3. The situation in Acts - when a person and his family is killed because he took some money for himself...

So what? If I have to be honest, I don't love Jesus and I don't want to follow him, because he is a brutal and cruel sadist...

BT, this is exactly the position that my cousin took a stand on, and it was bothering me too. I had a conversation on the radio with a truly fantastic guy named Steve Gregg, who hosts the "The Narrow Path". http://www.thenarrowpath.com/
Go to the site, and click on the Radio Program Archive. Then select February 18, 2009. I will be the third caller. Steve brings up some if the situations you brought up, and  really nails this issue.

[MacPherson]

I haven't been here for quite a long time... And actually, I don't want to discuss anything with Christians. The reason is - I actually don't love Jesus.

Why? With or without the lake of fire, the Bible remains full with violence.

What do I mean? Situations like this:

1. If you don't hate your parents, you are unworthy to me...

2. The situations when a man had to bury his father and Jesus told him - you must abandon everything and you must not look back... Really, this disgusts me!

3. The situation in Acts - when a person and his family is killed because he took some money for himself...

So what? If I have to be honest, I don't love Jesus and I don't want to follow him, because he is a brutal and cruel sadist...

1. Is the strife that will develop in Jewish households, when a Jew converts to the Way. It's not that he's supposed hate his parents, but they may hate and disown him. Or we are to hate everything in this world in comparison to our love for Christ. That isn't to be taken literally. God told us we are to honor our parents. But, we are to put Christ first, and hate everything in this world, figuratively speaking, in comparison to our devotion to Him.

2. Is Jesus simply saying that He has to come first, before anything of this world, or else our discipleship won't work. There will always be something holding us back, if we don't put Him first.

3. Ananias and his wife weren't killed because they took some money for themselves. Peter made it clear that it was their money earned from selling a plot of land, and they could have kept as much as they wanted to. But when Peter asked them, "is this the full amount you received?", Ananias lied to God and said "Yes". Was that a harsh punishment? Sure. But like Steve said when talking to me, every day God allows us despicable people to live, He is showing us incredible mercy.

[chuckt]

3. The situation in Acts - when a person and his family is killed because he took some money for himself...

good thing that was a one time deal eh?  :happy3:

hang in there the day star is about to shine.

chuckt

[IceDash]

BT, God know what you were going to said

God knew Eve will take the fruit

I want you to think about this:

The almost God create your soul, He knew that day you posted here you don't love him, but yet he still create you and still love you, he know what wrong with you

Yes the bible full of violence, God did this for a reason, I am not God but I know one thing for sure, God want us to be free

[Nathan]

BT, God know what you were going to said

God knew Eve will take the fruit

I want you to think about this:

The almost God create your soul, He knew that day you posted here you don't love him, but yet he still create you and still love you, he know what wrong with you

Yes the bible full of violence, God did this for a reason, I am not God but I know one thing for sure, God want us to be free

Preach it bro!! Right on!!!  Let freedom RING!!!!

[IceDash]

BT, God know what you were going to said

God knew Eve will take the fruit

I want you to think about this:

The almost God create your soul, He knew that day you posted here you don't love him, but yet he still create you and still love you, he know what wrong with you

Yes the bible full of violence, God did this for a reason, I am not God but I know one thing for sure, God want us to be free

Preach it bro!! Right on!!!  Let freedom RING!!!!

Sadly, some church-goer think that freedom mind people is a act of "rebellion" against God, we should be lucky because the devil doesn't grant freedom because if he does, he will make the whole world look like it was done by Joker from the dark knight.