Sin And Pursuing Jesus; A Scriptural, Spiritual Balance?

[jabcat]

*Disclaimer—This may go without saying, but I'll try to defuse a couple things up front;  This is as I understand it right now.  I am a flawed believer, in need of constant mercy, no better than any other, there but for the grace of God go I...and many times I do (go I).  So, that said;


Does pursuing Jesus mean I don't have to pay any attention to my sin?  Even that I can sin with abandon and count on the grace of God to take care of it for me?

Paul did say "all things are lawful".  But He also said , "not all things are expedient" and  "God forbid that I should sin that grace may abound".

He said "it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that dwells in me".  But again, he also said, "how shall we who died to sin still live in it?"

I've seen it taught on one side, "you better watch every moment of every day, or you might sin, backslide, and split hell wide open".  On the other hand, it's been said, "don't worry about your sin.  You're still a Christian, and God doesn't care about your sin.  Just keep on sinning, even with abandon, but pursue Christ". 

IMO, these are both extremes.  I don't believe legalism on one side is beneficial (or scriptural), however, I also don't believe extreme "whateverism" on the other side to be beneficial (or scriptural) either.  Isn't the path of righteousness somewhere between these two extremes?  And not our righteousness, by the way.  His righteousness. 

Giving the benefit of doubt, perhaps most supporting either extreme are sincere and attempting good things with their beliefs.  But IMO, either extreme can offer occasion to cause someone to stumble.  I've personally seen the legalistic side make being a believer seem so hard, the person just lives in defeat and condemnation, continuing in their sins rather than attempt to "earn it".  I believe there is also a reaction to the other extreme of "whateverism", of "so you're telling me I can just go ahead and sin, don't worry about it?  Even sin more if I want to?  OK...I don't get it, but whatever then."  Either, an occasion to stumble.

So simply put;  aren't we to
1)  detest our sin (Paul said "I do what I don't want to, and don't do what I want to do...oh wretched man that I am..who will deliver me?"); 
2) not focus on our sin and allow it to bury us in condemnation and steal our victory;  and certainly
3) keep our focus, our desire, and our love directed at Jesus.  Keeping our eyes and heart set on Him, giving all over to Him for Him to change within us; but WANTING to be changed ("create in me a clean heart, Oh God. And renew a right spirit within in me").   In essence, yes, pursuing Him, having Him change us, but yet not just being accepting of our sin and even increasing it so grace might abound.    

Isn't there a balance, a sensible approach that is scriptural;  that is neither one unscriptural extreme or the other?

And one last thought.  As I understand it, the first step is believing on Jesus as our Savior.

God's blessing as we pursue Him.  James.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes there is. God looks at the motive of the heart. Without the shedding of blood (repentance) there is no remission for sin. If you are truly repentant, you're not interested in becoming a member of the "greasy grace" club. That doesn't mean you may not slip up again, but as you decrease (repentance) He will increase with more of Himself, until you find that one day you can't imagine why you were ever even tempted in the first place, because a NATURE change has taken place.

Can I go one step farther? When there has been enough of a nature change within, your heart only wants to do that which pleases your Father; not because you did anything but repent, but because He did the work in you. Then He sets you free of the law of sin and death in shoe leather, because that law cannot be over the One who is within. This is a real spiritual experience just as real as the day you knew something happened and you were born from above. The Word is alive, and not just alive in that all of a sudden we understand some part of scripture, but alive, in that meeting the Spirit of the Word is experiencing that part of the Word. Blessings....

[jabcat]

:cloud9: Yes there is.  Can I go one step farther?  When there has been enough of a nature change within, your heart only wants to do that which pleases your Father; not because you did anything but repent, but because He did the work in you.

Yes  :thumbsup:.

[Paul Hazelwood]

*Disclaimer—This may go without saying, but I'll try to defuse a couple things up front;  This is as I understand it right now.  I am a flawed believer, in need of constant mercy, no better than any other, there but for the grace of God go I...and many times I do (go I).  So, that said;


Does pursuing Jesus mean I don't have to pay any attention to my sin?  Even that I can sin with abandon and count on the grace of God to take care of it for me?

Paul did say "all things are lawful".  But He also said , "not all things are expedient" and  "God forbid that I should sin that grace may abound".

He said "it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that dwells in me".  But again, he also said, "how shall we who died to sin still live in it?"

I've seen it taught on one side, "you better watch every moment of every day, or you might sin, backslide, and split hell wide open".  On the other hand, it's been said, "don't worry about your sin.  You're still a Christian, and God doesn't care about your sin.  Just keep on sinning, even with abandon, but pursue Christ". 

IMO, these are both extremes.  I don't believe legalism on one side is beneficial (or scriptural), however, I also don't believe extreme "whateverism" on the other side to be beneficial (or scriptural) either.  Isn't the path of righteousness somewhere between these two extremes?  And not our righteousness, by the way.  His righteousness. 

Giving the benefit of doubt, perhaps most supporting either extreme are sincere and attempting good things with their beliefs.  But IMO, either extreme can offer occasion to cause someone to stumble.  I've personally seen the legalistic side make being a believer seem so hard, the person just lives in defeat and condemnation, continuing in their sins rather than attempt to "earn it".  I believe there is also a reaction to the other extreme of "whateverism", of "so you're telling me I can just go ahead and sin, don't worry about it?  Even sin more if I want to?  OK...I don't get it, but whatever then."  Either, an occasion to stumble.

So simply put;  aren't we to
1)  detest our sin (Paul said "I do what I don't want to, and don't do what I want to do...oh wretched man that I am..who will deliver me?"); 
2) not focus on our sin and allow it to bury us in condemnation and steal our victory;  and certainly
3) keep our focus, our desire, and our love directed at Jesus.  Keeping our eyes and heart set on Him, giving all over to Him for Him to change within us; but WANTING to be changed ("create in me a clean heart, Oh God. And renew a right spirit within in me").   In essence, yes, pursuing Him, having Him change us, but yet not just being accepting of our sin and even increasing it so grace might abound.    

Isn't there a balance, a sensible approach that is scriptural;  that is neither one unscriptural extreme or the other?

And one last thought.  As I understand it, the first step is believing on Jesus as our Savior.

God's blessing as we pursue Him.  James.

Several things in my life I have found.  Living under the shroud of guilt did nothing for my spiritual well being, did nothing for my depression, it did not make me love anyone more. In fact it had the opposite effect, it caused me to hate anyone I saw finding freedom that I desired.   Because I was in the bondage of trying to make my flesh something that it is not.

When it comes to Pleasing God, that is one of the things that creates so much depression in people of faith.  Constantly thinking that God is there tapping his foot in displeasure at us and withholding his blessing as we go to and fro in and out of his will.

The reality is that God is already pleased with us and the measure of our earthly life is if we recognize an importance to do our best.   I do not drink and smoke, not because God now shines his rays down on me, it is because I will not die a gruesome death from lung cancer and maybe I will not kill someone while behind the wheel of my car.   Thats worth something.

I wish to stay true to my wife, not because God will bless me for being faithful  because SEX is the great big BANNER sin that causes convulsions in all the believers really wishing they had lots of it,  but because my wife is a precious human being and BETRAYING her trust of an agreement to be true to her is a far worse issue to contend with even on a human level.   The reality is that my flesh entertains such notions a lot and I am not going to feel guilty for it,  I simply know that I must focus more on my wife despite that.


This does not mean I do not pursue God, it means in my human condition, God is the only one who can cause me to get it right in the first place.  So if sin dwells within me as Paul says and even he says "I do the things I do not want to do" then God is responsible and if he can't handle it, he's not worth my time.

[martincisneros]

Jabcat, if you've got a Pentecostal background and if you were there for years and years, then what I'm about to say will click in your mind, will, emotions, understanding, meditations, etc.  For anyone that doesn't have a Pentecostal or Charismatic or Word of Faith background, I genuinely don't know if I'd be able to get through to them with this if I gave them hundreds of thousands of words about this.  So, others without the aforementioned backgrounds might get this or they might not.  Not sure if I'll be able to get through to them with this, with millions of words.  I could recommend resources, although I'm not sure if they're still available.  From Jerry Savelle it would be a DVD called "Increase By Association" and from Kenneth Copeland, it would be ...I guess a CD nowadays, if it's still available, called "Partners in Power."  I know that Tim Storey has taught this a billion, billion times, but I'm not sure that he's as well known or as easy to track down for any materials that would explain this kind of thing.  Anyway, enough rambling and here's my statement on this particular subject:

Some things are caught instead of taught.

Mr Aristotle Onassis, the guy that was a billionaire back when a billionaire would probably be like being a trillionaire today said privately one time that if he lost absolutely everything that he'd immediately find out where rich people were hanging out and he'd go and hang out there.  Not to do or say anything in particular to anyone.  But he believed that just by being there that enough of that "energy" that was on those rich people would come on him and opportunities would start coming his way again as if by magic, just by being there.

Elisha didn't get what he got from Elijah just because of a call upon his life, God's Sovereignty, or whatever.  He wouldn't let that man out of his sight!  The 12 Apostles came back to Jesus, [before they were ever born again and filled with the Holy Spirit,] rejoicing that in His Name even the demons were subject to them.  The Scriptures say similar things with regards to Joshua and Moses as they say regarding Elisha and Elijah.  St. Paul wrote to Philemon saying about Onesimus, "if you count me a ministry partner, receive him as you would me."  Though we don't have a record of it, I fully expect that while Onesimus was teaching the Word that handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched his body could be taken to the sick and oppressed and their illnesses would leave 'em and demons would leave them as well.

Pray about it and continue in the Scriptures always as first priority and final authority.  But anyone that you're aware of that seems to have a handle on this particular revelation that you're after, or anyone that God brings across your path that's enjoying a demension of liberty from both sin and condemnation about sin, then really press in with them.  You'll always catch more in the Kingdom of God by association than you'll ever catch merely by someone's rhetoric.  Association can be through someone's writings without a doubt. 

Hundreds of very very similar ministries to the ministries of Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, etc., etc., etc. around the world have been launched through their association with those ministries even though they never heard a specific prophetic word from them, per se, but they caught what's worked in their lives as a part of what God was doing in their lives through calling them.  Some things will come in chapter and verse and additional things that'll never contradict chapter and verse will come in the Kingdom of God to you almost as if they were bacteria or a virus that you'd really want.  And I'm not speaking regarding the veracity, integrity, or Scriptural weight of any of the aforementioned contemporary individuals.  I'm talking about the process of catching something by association that's not often emphasized in Christian Universalist circles.  Any good thing you can think of in someone else's life, if it's something you're sufficiently interested in but seem to always fall short on your own of coming up to that level, you can literally catch/capture it as your own or be infected with it, in a good way.

On the subject of this thread, unless others come to mind, I personally can think of no one better to spend time with their videos than Joseph Prince from Singapore.  I got delivered through his ministry last year of areas of condemnation in my life that I wasn't even aware were still there.  I thought it had all gotten purged out through my association with Kenneth Copeland's ministry in the 90s and then the UR, Animal Gospel, and Postmillenial messages that God had brought me into in the 21st century thus far.  But last year, particularly in the Spring/Summer, I really got a deep, deep, deep, deep cleansing through watching Joseph Prince's daily television program faithfully for weeks and weeks.  www.josephprince.org

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's a very true principle Martin; made possible by the ministers close association to the Lord Himself.  :thumbsup:  Blessings....

[jabcat]

Interesting...in fact, I find that whole topic fascinating, i.e., "believe on the Lord and you and your whole household will be saved", and again, a believing wife "purifies/sanctifies her husband".   OK, more to think about and "catch"  :Sparkletooth:   

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I should have added, the same principle as when the head of the house (hold) would make the sacrifice, ie. be the priest for the others before the tabernacle was built. The oil flows from the head down to the feet. This is why we have the right to claim our whole household. The only question is; how big of a household do you want to claim, as all our brethren? Blessings....

[Akira Takahashi]

Interesting...in fact, I find that whole topic fascinating, i.e., "believe on the Lord and you and your whole household will be saved", and again, a believing wife "purifies/sanctifies her husband".   OK, more to think about and "catch"  :Sparkletooth:   

I've never heard a pastor tackle that one before, but taken literally, it would mean that my belief in God would save my entire family.  Is it correctly translated?

Anyway, my reply to the original post is that you can be sinful and pursue Jesus.  Why?  Because, by nature, we are sinful creatures, and our only chance is to pursue Jesus.  He died for us because we're sinful, and because we can never hope to be perfect.

However, we aren't supposed to sin just because we know that our sins are covered by the blood.  For example, I can't go murder my neighbor in the summer when he sits up on his roof and plays his music so lound I can hear it (and I live in the country!), just because I know that my transgression will be forgiven.

"God forbid that I should sin that grace may abound," means don't just go doing things you know are sinful just to get forgiveness.  You've already gotten forgiveness, so there's need to act stupid.

Rasputin, the infamous Russian peasant, believed that you should be as sinful as possible so that God can bestow more grace upon you, and that's what Paul is talking about.  Look at Rasputin's life; he slept with anyone who had a female's body, drank himself into a stupor on a regular basis, exploited the Tsarina's trust in him for personal gain, etc.  He was quoted saying, "Sin is also from God. The more you sin, the stronger is your repentance, the closer to God you become."

All in all, don't live your life being paranoid of messing up, because that will happen.  You'll never be perfect, so you have to accept that.  However, you shouldn't excuse every one of your sinful behaviors by saying, "Hey, I'm covered!  God'll pick up the tab."

[jabcat]

Sounds to me like the scriptural/spiritual balance as I too understand it...taking into account both our human frailty, and God's grace...without abusing either.

[claypot]

Interesting...in fact, I find that whole topic fascinating, i.e., "believe on the Lord and you and your whole household will be saved", and again, a believing wife "purifies/sanctifies her husband".   OK, more to think about and "catch"  :Sparkletooth:   

Household IMO clearly means each individual. You and your household will be saved. In other words your entire being will be saved. A mans enemies are those of his own household, Jesus said. Out of the heart of a person comes all sorts of evil, Jesus said. What is this saying but that out of a persons 'household' comes these things.

A household is a person.

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's good cp. I never saw that as being total salvation of an individual before, but I can see it now. Blessings...

[Nathan]

Great conversation happening here . . .and cp's last comment kind of ties it all together with the household being "in" me . .but the two major thoughts that seem to be surfacing here is sinning while pursuing . . .and just how far out does this salvation reach in a family.

First . . .I am one that does tell people . . .if you're focusing on the sin, you're not really pursuing Christ.  The "glory" was to be given to Christ.  In doing so . .the power of sin is diminished greatly at the onset . .and removed all together in the maturity.  God is not nearly as sin conscious as man is . . .otherwise, there never would have been the prophetic question of God given to Adam . . "Who told you, you were naked?"  Nakedness is a picture of sin/shame and even though Adam was naked, he was not ashamed . .until the tree of knowledge affected his thinking.  There also was no such thing as fear . . .until he ate of the tree of knowledge . . .hmm .  . . could "knowledge" invoke fear?  

Knowing what is wrong and what is right is given to all due to the tree of knowledge . . and our response to that knowledge is where the problem lies.  We want to "protect' ourselves and others from doing what is wrong . .so we establish and enforce a code of laws which by following them, is to keep us from doing that which is wrong . . .which just doesn't work.  Because with that goes the idea that keeping the law is what keeps us in Christ . .and we know that isn't what does it at all.

That's leading away from the original thought so I'll stop it there.  But I will say that your personality was not taught to you, it was birthed in you when God called your spirit into existance.  So for you to try to change your personality to someone else's standards or interpretation of Scripture isn't any healthier than the sin itself.  It's not you that changes you, but it is Christ "in" you.  So again, to pursue Christ is to turn from focussing on whether you're sinning or not.  If the Spirit of the lord is in you . ..then rely on Him letting you know what is good and what is bad . . ."for you".  And the things that God points out in you as missing the mark, let him remove them  . . . but if "you" attempt to remove it, the fact that you're focusing on the bondage . .only makes it stronger in you and harder to let go of.  

And as for the entire house being saved . . . I believe that it has natural and spiritual applications both.  Just because your offspring are not adhering to your brand of life in Christ, is not to say that they won't manifest freedom at all.  If Scripture is telling this guy that his entire house would be saved, I believe that he was to take that literally . . .and if he could, we can also . . .but to cp's point, the spiritual application to that is that "my" entire being will be saved once my heart is rightly aligned and then my mind is renewed, my body will come into that freedom of alignment as well.