shall i fight against the teaching of hell

[sven]

when i was afraid of hell and quite suicidal, i asked in a help forum what christians think, i had luck and got to know the annihalitionist view on hell.

now where i have enough knowledge i registred in this forum, i want to help people who have depressions and fear death and so on, there are some christians, they are no fanatics but i´m not sure if i shall openly oppose the teaching on hell there at any opportunity, i wrote some private messages with some there, there is also a former christian who believed in universalism but who is no christian any longer and a former Jehova Witness who also rejects hell. what do u think, shall i do?

[Shadow]

I'm still going through a nightmare, that I neither wanted or asked for which started almost a year ago, I cannot justify the concept of an eternal hell under any circumstances, what's worse (unlike many on here) I'm not convinced it doesn't exist

I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men.,I would not for my life destroy one star of human hope, but I want it so that when a poor woman rocks the cradle and sings a lullaby to the dimpled darling, she will not be compelled to believe that ninety-nine chances in a hundred she is raising kindling wood for hell, What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena

If God created man -- if he is the father of us all, why did he make the criminals, the insane, the deformed and idiotic?
     Should the mother, who clasps to her breast an idiot child, thank God?

Robert Ingersoll

I may not agree with Robert Ingersoll's atheism, but I stand united with him on the one issue I have quoted in bold, what makes it strange is that I'm not liberal minded, I support the death penalty under certain circumstances and I think the western world has become far too lenient with criminals, however to me ECT is a penalty that doesn't match the crime, especially as we were all born (without being consulted in any way) into a sinful condition

For the creature was made subject to vanity: not willingly, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope. 21 Because the creature also itself shall be delivered from the servitude of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain, even till now. 23 And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit: even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. Romans 8v20-25

[sven]

if there is an eternal hell how should this happen?: And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1. Corintheans 15,28)

but im sometimes still afraid as well, its a mighty doctrine, but im at least convinced of soul sleep

[B_T]

I hate this doctrine and cannot believe in it. And I fight against it...

[sven]

but is a forum of mainly unbelievers the right place to fight against?

[B_T]

I think yes. A lot of ministers think that the ET teaching is needed in order somebody to repent.

However, such people are unworthy according to the Bible, because they don't serve God because they Love him, but because they have Fear.

Fear, not love.

[sven]

at least i bashed the doctrine of immortal soul, conditional immortality is a strong argument against hell, isnt it? some Lutherans believe in soulsleep till judgement day and then the unbelievers are doomed to hell, but then they must make out of the second death an eternal life in pain, which doesnt make sense.

[sven]

something i cant understand, all my posts there seems to have been completely ignored

a former christian who came to the conclusion Jesus saves all, now accusses God of sending people to hell (though he must know it better), a christian woman didn't read the links i gave to her, but prefers to read about near death experiences.

i just can't understant this, why are they so ignorant both believers and unbelievers?

for me it seems the unbelievers want to accuse christians of believing in an evil God and christians want to threat unbelievers with hell  :dontknow:

[rosered]

 
     Hi Sevn ,
  I was not ignoring you bro

  you have good points and all
  it is just  no one has it all figured out

  not the unbelieves and not the believers  either  no one believes the in same  things we are all trying to get there  though
  even this board has  its divisions , when it comes to the Truth 
why do you think that is ?
  :HeartThrob:

[sven]

I was not ignoring you bro

i didn't meant this forum, i hope it was no missunderstanding

though even this board has  its divisions , when it comes to the Truth 
why do you think that is ?

thats a difficult question, maybe people have different ways of thinking, other imaginations about the afterlife for example or have allready been indoctrinated a lot

i just don't understand this ignorance, it seems for me sometimes as if some christians want to believe in hell while some unbelievers want christians to believe in hell just to have a reason to reject christianity and accuse God of beeing evil.

[rosered]

I was not ignoring you bro

i didn't meant this forum, i hope it was no missunderstanding

though even this board has  its divisions , when it comes to the Truth 
why do you think that is ?

thats a difficult question, maybe people have different ways of thinking, other imaginations about the afterlife for example or have allready been indoctrinated a lot

i just don't understand this ignorance, it seems for me sometimes as if some christians want to believe in hell while some unbelievers want christians to believe in hell just to have a reason to reject christianity and accuse God of beeing evil.

       Hi Sevn ,

    I agree  it is confusing  especially at times 
  for me to even understand

   I think ''hell '' is a word  most folks  dont comprehened , and  take it at face value  , and what they have  heard and been taught / and imaginations go wild 
  not looking  into it  for themselves and asking  Gods Spirit and Truth to open  up their understanding  to the depths of Gods Wisdom
  that we can overcome  fears  and torment and vanity   and go on into perfection , complete   in His love and rest in  trusting faith   in  God' s will and  works  for us  :HeartThrob:  the message is there its just a matter of the   labouers of love  being few and the harvest is   so great   we must pray for Gods increase  of Spirit and Truth  to consume/to use or use up  us

for His purpose  :HeartThrob:

[sven]

it seems i start to convince a christian woman that hell is not biblical, it's a good feeling, a Jehova Witness is a great help there also, i see many of the hell believers no longer as a kind of enemy, they suffer under this belief

this Jehova Witness is a way to rude and got angry, you can't convince people this way but i can understand him in getting angry

[sven]

i discuss in a forum with a woman believing hell, she suffers under this belief and maybe she starts questioning it

but what is interesting, none of her arguments for hell are biblical, she says God is holy - therefore must be a hell for those rejecting Christ - this nowhere is said in the Bible this way, the main focus on Gods holiness is in the Tanakh and there is not a single word written about hell

she is convinced of immortal soul though this is obvious unbiblical, all her arguments for hell, are just her logic, or the logic of the men who indoctrinated her

she admits that i know the bible better, but says i have not the holy spirit which might be true, but i don't know

[martincisneros]

Never build an outreach on a negative that you're going to spend all of your time refuting this or that 'cause then you fall right into the hands of the critics that what you share does nothing to draw people to Christ.  Emphasize the finished work of Christ and the supremacy of it over all other theories of justice and worthiness.  That's what St. Paul did in handling the circumcision and other points of the Judaizers.  Otherwise, a couple thousand years later we'd have 13 to 14 documents in our New Testament that would have no baring to our lives today 'cause they'd be exclusively about refuting the doctrine of circumcision.  What you want to do is to always deal with both the present and the future and to build something that's relevant for the future even when ET's been abolished from the Church. 

Better scholars than either of us have already produced a legacy of writings that refute the ET nonsense and we can point people in the direction of those resources and how to get them through Abebooks.com, concordant.org, tentmaker.org, etc.  But focus on the fact that the most holy has been anointed and everlasting righteousness has been brought in according to Daniel's prophecy, and that as St. Paul put it "if in this life only we have hope, then we're of all men miserable."  Keep on and on and on with the passages about the Blood of Christ speaking better things than the blood of Abel in the book of Hebrews, how it was one sacrifice [for all] to the close of the age of God's dealings with the righteous and the wicked, and how Ephesians 2:13 says that His Blood is what brings us near rather than our self righteousness. 

Yes, Acts 17, Acts 20, and a few other passages do emphasize repentance and passages like Romans 10 and 2Corinthians 5 say that our real salvation begins when we call/cry out to Him, but God has already written the check in the Blood of His own Son to cover the cost that's ever been incured by the sin of anyone and God's not accepting our own eternal punishment as a sufficient replacement in the bank of heaven for our sins instead of the Blood of Christ.  None of us are our own, but all of us have been bought with a price because Jesus Christ is the ransom for all to be testified in due time, therefore we're to glorify God in our spirit, soul, and body and cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.  But God is not pleased in the death of the wicked, but in the recovery of the wicked from their death in trespasses. 

And it's to those that were dead in trespasses that He's ordained that in the ages to come that He'd show them the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towards them through Christ Jesus's High Priestly ministry.  Israel in the Old Testament wasn't judged on their own righteousness, but upon the righteousness of their high priest.  Likewise today, the world isn't judged on their own righteousness, but upon the righteousness of their High Priest.  God's counsel shall stand and He will do absolutely all of His pleasure and He's sworn the oath that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and that in His Lordship they have righteousness and strength.  Be a peddler of the Cross and of nothing else and let the chips fall where they will when it comes to the New Testament pattern of emphasizing the Gospel of Grace rather than all of the other minutia that it's easy to devote the rest of your time on earth to.

[sven]

i wrote a kind but rather cynical email to a teacher of eternal punishment who critizices the Concordant translation, showing him some verses from LXX and NT where aionios impossible can mean eternal while playing kind of uninformed, do you think this is good behavior to ask in such a kind of cynical way?

[WhiteWings]

I checked some sites and YouTube vids.
No matter what you do an ET won't tell you about UR.
If you play unknowing and ask why "all are saved" why church clearly preaches hell they give you the "all of some" explanation.
If you backup your claims with may verses and sound reasoning they ignore you. Call you an heretic. Say you quote out of context. You don't understand.
The usual "Me smart, you heretic/stupid: drill.

BTW LXX is not inspired by God like the masonic text. According to the KJV flock.
On a forum someone mentioned that LXX lines up with the dead sea scrolls. Answer DSS are an hoax.
Anything is allowed to defend your own doctrine. Even saying several NT books are possibly fake and should be ignored.

What I'm trying to say if someone believes banana's are purple you have no way to convince them otherwise.
Unless they are open to good arguments. (like you post about your father in another thread)
Deaf people don't hear no matter how hard you shout....

[sven]

I said no word about universalism, I just asked him questions where I already know the answer (and i quess this was quite obvious in my mail) and bombarded him with greek text, I could have asked him open and not in such a "provocative" way, it's just something I think about if I behaved correctly.

at least I was formally very friendly  :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

I said no word about universalism,

Ok, but when questions are in a certain direction the reader likely will see an UR view shining trough your posts.

i wrote a kind but rather cynical email to a teacher of eternal punishment who critizices the Concordant translation, showing him some verses from LXX and NT where aionios impossible can mean eternal while playing kind of uninformed, do you think this is good behavior to ask in such a kind of cynical way?

Both UR and ET lean heavily on that word. (if they should is another discussion)
So if you start to question the meaning of that word you question ET.
Claiming that "everlasting punishment" actually means "time limited punishment" is a frontal attack on one of the pillars of ET.

[jabcat]

I think the only "right" answer to that question is, if you felt led by the Spirit in the way you did it, then it was right.  My :2c:.  Maybe not exactly the same thing, but Paul talked about being "all things to all men"...I think that at least to some degree means being flexible, willing to try different methods...what works for one guy may not work for the other.

[firstborn888]

What I've observed is that most ETers give only a mental consent to the concept of eternal hell and they can block it out of their reality. The ones who REALLY suffer are those with a deep practical compassion which they cannot divorce from there theological belief system, or those with very vivid imaginations or those with obsessive compulsive disorders.

People have literally gone insane over this so I have no qualms about exposing this ungodly error. It's probably the worst slander and most horrific concept ever put forth by humans, especially the Calvinist "God planned it that way" version. Really really sick  :sigh:

[sparrow]

What I've observed is that most ETers give only a mental consent to the concept of eternal hell and they can block it out of their reality. The ones who REALLY suffer are those with a deep practical compassion which they cannot divorce from there theological belief system, or those with very vivid imaginations or those with obsessive compulsive disorders.

People have literally gone insane over this so I have no qualms about exposing this ungodly error. It's probably the worst slander and most horrific concept ever put forth by humans, especially the Calvinist "God planned it that way" version. Really really sick  :sigh:

Yes. I often wonder about people like Andrea Yates, who killed all of her children... yes she was suffering from depression and was on different prescription anti-depressants etc.. which is a WHOLE other topic.. (the drug companies, ugh.)
But I wonder how much "hell" and "Age of accountability" etc. teachings contributed and just made matters worse for her.  I remember reading how she thought she was a bad mother and that she had to kill her children before the age of accountability so they wouldn't end up in hell. By HER way of thinking, (that HELL is real and the age of accountability is real)...then she actually layed down her own life for her children. People call her a "sick monster" and so many hate her and wish she were dead... it's so sad.  I feel so horribly sad for Andrea Yates. She was a victim, too. Such a needless tragedy for all of those beautiful, special children to have died such a horrible death.... and for their mother to have basically lost her life and herself as well. Depression, mental disorders, prescription drugs that do more harm in some caes than good, and horrible lies about our God... do not mix.

I remember when I was coming to my beliefs about God, I struggled and struggled with the concept of "hell" it's what kept me AWAY from God most of my life. I never accepted it. When I encountered it again when I truly started to seek God, (or when he reached out to ME, however you look at it)  I ended up one night on the floor of my shower, shaking uncontrollably and crying out from the depths of my soul. I couldn't take it. My worse enemy, cancer doctors that basically helped ruin my family's life, HITLER.. I didn't want any of them to suffer for all eternity!!! My GOD!!! MY GOD!!! I couldn't look anyone in the eye, strangers in a grocery store,  I kept crying in public, I kept seeing people and wandering, my GOD! are they going to hell???! I couldn't do it, I was literally LOSING MY MIND.  How can I reconcile the God of love with this horrible teaching?! It was bad enough thinking about the salvation of those I loved, but my enemies, perfect strangers, EVERY HUMAN BEING was on my back weighing me down. They were all there, everyone.... standing on my shoulders. I kept praying about EVERYONE. I started truly learning how to LOVE my enemies. I thought, I have found a loophole! God says he will give us all things... WELL GOD! I want ALL to be saved! That is what I want! Then slowly but surely, God showed me the way... and brought me out of my insanity.... and showed me that YES. He is a GOOD God. HE DOES love all of His creation. ALL. And then and only then is when His plan, (the little jigsaw pieces that I see so far) truly is remarkable and makes perfect sense. And I know it will only become more beautiful and more magnificent as I go along... What a GIFT.
To know how much HE loves us. YES! We need to share what we believe. Share. not force. Everyone has something to offer. Every human being has something to offer another human being. Offer another human being YOUR little piece of the puzzle that you have found... (or that God has given you.)  :icon_flower:

Stand up for the character of our beautiful, Loving God at every opportunity.
Defend His honor.
Don't let people paint a picture of a monster God.
No need to cram stuff down people's throat.
THEY need to walk their OWN path.
Just share your beliefs is all any of us can really do.
You may end up saving someone's life and/or their sanity.

peace.  :HeartThrob:

[sven]

in this forum where I am, there are many people who are no christians but kind of spiritual and believing in God and his love, they all believe in a kind of universalism, some believe in Jesus in a more philosophic way

might Luke 7:9 fit to them:

When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

[firstborn888]

I couldn't look anyone in the eye, strangers in a grocery store,  I kept crying in public, I kept seeing people and wandering, my GOD! are they going to hell???!

I remember reading of a woman who had this exact same experience. Hannah Hurnard maybe?

[sparrow]

I couldn't look anyone in the eye, strangers in a grocery store,  I kept crying in public, I kept seeing people and wandering, my GOD! are they going to hell???!

I remember reading of a woman who had this exact same experience. Hannah Hurnard maybe?

Hannah Whitehall Smith! After I had been drawn into the truth and God lifted the veils and showed me His love for all, God lead me to a writing by Hannah Whitehall Smith.. a SISTER, a person who had gone through the same experience as me! It was one of those weird "conicidence upon coincidence upon coincidences"  :winkgrin: that led me to her writings... it was pretty cool, I must say. I felt like I was reading something that I myself, had written. It was like some sort of bizarre connection I had with this woman through time and space.  :HeartThrob: :icon_flower:

An excerpt:

In every human face I saw, there seemed to be unveiled before me, the story of the misery and anguish caused by the entrance of sin into the world. I knew that God must see this with far clearer eyes than mine, and therefore I felt sure that the sufferings of this sight to Him must be infinitely beyond what it was to me, almost unbearable as that seemed. And I began to understand how it was that the least He could do would be to embrace with untold gladness anything that would help to deliver the being He had created for such awful misery.

It was a never to be forgotten insight into the world's anguish because of sin. How long it lasted I cannot remember, but, while it lasted, it almost crushed me. And as it always came afresh at the sight of a strange face, I found myself obliged to wear a thick veil whenever I went into the streets, in order that I might spare myself the awful realization.

One day I was riding on a tram-car along Market Street, Philadelphia, when I saw two men come in and seat themselves opposite to me. I saw them dimly through the veil, but congratulated myself that it was only dimly, as I was thus spared the wave of anguish that had so often swept over me at the full sight of a strange face. The conductor came for his fare, and I was obliged to raise my veil in order to count it out. As I raised it I got a sight of the faces of those two men, and with an overwhelming flood of anguish, I seemed to catch a fresh and clearer revelation of the depth of the misery that had been caused to human beings by sin. It was more than I could bear. I clenched my hands and cried out in my soul, "O, God, how canst thou bear it? Thou mightest have prevented it, but didst not. Thou mightest even now change it, but Thou dost not. I do not see how Thou canst go on living, and endure it." I upbraided God. And I felt I was justified in doing so. Then suddenly God seemed to answer me. An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, "He shall see the travail of His soul and be satisfied."

"Satisfied!" I cried in my heart, "Christ is to be satisfied!  He will be able to look at the world's misery, and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result; If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him." And with this a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe, and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that "as in Adam all die -even so in Christ should all be made alive." As was the first, even so was the second. The "all" in one case could not in fairness mean less than the "all" in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.

I saw all this that day on the tram-car on Market street, Philadelphia--not only thought it, or hoped it, or even believed it--but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had one questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. God is the Creator of every human being, therefore He is the Father of each one, and they are all His children; and Christ died for every one, and is declared to be "the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations. If it is true that "by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," it is equally true that "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." To limit the last "all men" is also to limit the first. The salvation is absolutely equal to the fall. There is to be a final "restitution of all things", when "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Every knee, every tongue-words could not be more embracing. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed-somewhere and somehow God was going to make every thing right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever.

I hurried home to get hold of my Bible, to see if the magnificent fact I had discovered could possibly have been all this time in the Bible, and I had not seen it; and the moment I entered the house, I did not wait to take off my bonnet, but rushed at once to the table where I always kept my Bible and Concordance ready for use, and began my search.  Immediately the whole Book seemed to be illuminated.  On every page the truth concerning the "times of restitution of all things" of which the Apostle Peter says "God Hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," shone forth, and no room was left for questioning.  I turned greedily from page to page of my Bible, fairly laughing aloud for joy at the blaze of light that illuminated it all.  It became a new book.  Another skin seemed to have been peeled off every text, and my Bible fairly shone with a new meaning.   I do not say with a different meaning, for in no sense did the new meaning contradict the old, but a deeper meaning, the true meaning, hidden behind the outward form of words.  The words did not need to be changed, they only needed to be understood; and now at last I began to understand them.

I remember thinking... ME TOO! ME TOO! Oh my GOSH! Me TOO!!!!!!!!! I was so just.... flabbergasted, is the word... just FLABBERGASTED. I felt like I was floating on clouds for a long time afterwards... :HeartThrob: I was kind of alone in my revelation, but it was as if God had allowed a kind of fellowship with someone who was similar to me in more ways than one. It was a special little gift. And I'll always cherish it.  :icon_flower:

[firstborn888]

Hannah Whitehall Smith! ...
An excerpt:


One day I was riding on a tram-car along Market Street, Philadelphia, when I saw two men come in and seat themselves opposite to me. I saw them dimly through the veil, but congratulated myself that it was only dimly, as I was thus spared the wave of anguish that had so often swept over me at the full sight of a strange face.

That was the one Sparrow. I don't recall how I came upon it - but that was the picture -in the tram-car.