The "second death" what exactly is it?

[Zeek]

The first Adam brought death into the world.

The last Adam brings life into the world.

The last Adam undoes what the first Adam did.

The first death is the death and everything associated with it that Adam introduced on the day he sinned.

The second death is the death of that first death and everything associated with it.

The second death undoes what the first death did.

The second death, that consuming lake of fire, is none other than the Lord himself, expressed through his body on earth, who, by his death on the cross, started a process of sending fire on the earth that extends to every human. We are those who dwell in the everlasting fire, as Isaiah points out.

There is more to it than that, but this is just one facet of what scripture teaches about it. Everyone goes through the second death now, but only those who go willingly, spoken of as overcomers, will not be hurt of it, nor will it have power over them. For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

Ron

Noah spent years building the ark, having his faith tried, while being persecuted by those not given faith. 

same as here:  Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

He was rewarded when the "rain/fire"' came, being raised above the waters, receiving the end of their faith; the salvation of their souls

1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.  

If we are all in the LOF now, then when was the trial of believers faith prior to the "fire/rains"? 

[WhiteWings]

For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

If we are all in the LOF now, then when was the trial of believers faith prior to the "fire/rains"? 
[/quote]

And when do those knees bow?
I don't see much knees bowing. And most of the bowing knees bow to false gods.
And it stays that way until those people die (except for the few that convert before death)
So when and how are they convinced to bow if they are out of LoF?

[gregoryfl]

The first Adam brought death into the world.

The last Adam brings life into the world.

The last Adam undoes what the first Adam did.

The first death is the death and everything associated with it that Adam introduced on the day he sinned.

The second death is the death of that first death and everything associated with it.

The second death undoes what the first death did.

The second death, that consuming lake of fire, is none other than the Lord himself, expressed through his body on earth, who, by his death on the cross, started a process of sending fire on the earth that extends to every human. We are those who dwell in the everlasting fire, as Isaiah points out.

There is more to it than that, but this is just one facet of what scripture teaches about it. Everyone goes through the second death now, but only those who go willingly, spoken of as overcomers, will not be hurt of it, nor will it have power over them. For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

Ron

Noah spent years building the ark, having his faith tried, while being persecuted by those not given faith. 

same as here:  Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

He was rewarded when the "rain/fire"' came, being raised above the waters, receiving the end of their faith; the salvation of their souls

1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.  

If we are all in the LOF now, then when was the trial of believers faith prior to the "fire/rains"? 

Hey Zeek,

From what I understand, the trial of faith that Peter speaks of IS the lake of fire, spoken of as "fiery trials." This fire is the very presence of God, the life we live in him, and the message we bring to the world. I see Noah as a type of Christ, who, like Christ, was persecuted while preparing the ark, and as Christ prepared a baptism. He gathered all that would be saved into the ark, just as Christ gathers all who will be saved into God. The flood waters come, and while those in the ark are IN the water, they are not hurt of it. Only those outside are. Likewise, when the fire came in Pentecost, those gathered in Christ into God are IN the fire, but not hurt of it. Only those outside are. I do not see us as a type of Noah, but rather of all forms of life gathered by him into the ark, representing God. Of course, I am by no means above having my thinking adjusted, so please, if you see something that I am not, feel free to continue to evaluate this.

Thanks,

Ron

Ron

[gregoryfl]

For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

If we are all in the LOF now, then when was the trial of believers faith prior to the "fire/rains"? 

And when do those knees bow?
I don't see much knees bowing. And most of the bowing knees bow to false gods.
And it stays that way until those people die (except for the few that convert before death)
So when and how are they convinced to bow if they are out of LoF?
[/quote]

Hi WW,

In time every knee bows, from what I understand. For some, it happens in their life, but for most, it happens after physical death. The best way I can describe it is that now, believers have the spirit in us, which is represented as tongues of fire. The message we bear is one of fire that purifies those who receive it, and torments those who don't. To be in the very presence of a believer as he or she lives their life is like a fire to them. Like you said, the vast majority do not bend the knee in this life. When they die, what I understand is that they are then brought to that place of bowing and acknowledging the Lord by being in his very presence, a consuming fire that is unbridled and at it's fullest. No one will be able to withstand seeing and experiencing his love and glory without change taking place. I do not see the bowing of the knee as a one time event that everyone does, but rather, as something everyone does over time, each in their own order.

Maybe you might not agree, but can you at least understand where I am coming from?

Ron

[WhiteWings]

Ron,

Let's say I'm neutral about your answer. :winkgrin:

Tell me when I'm wrong.
Can i summarize your answer as follows:
Everyone is in LoF right now.
Some choose to kneel in this life/LoF
Those who don't will do so after death.

If a religious noob so an extra question.
The ET understanding is simple. Kneel in this life=heaven. Don't kneel=eternal hell

The UR understanding of some is equal to the above ET vision but with spiritual fire/teaching
But you seem to have another version. "Hell on earth" plus some extra afterlife teaching.
Again I'm not arguing. Just collection diffrent opions....

"Fear the Lord" etc.
Eternal ET hell is kinda extreem.
But what I understand from your explanation is the other extreme.
Live like the devil. Die. Meet Jesus. Hi dude; You are real! All sins are forgiven.

You are not the first one on this forum to write such an opion; but I stil don't understand  :dunno:

[Zeek]

The first Adam brought death into the world.

The last Adam brings life into the world.

The last Adam undoes what the first Adam did.

The first death is the death and everything associated with it that Adam introduced on the day he sinned.

The second death is the death of that first death and everything associated with it.

The second death undoes what the first death did.

The second death, that consuming lake of fire, is none other than the Lord himself, expressed through his body on earth, who, by his death on the cross, started a process of sending fire on the earth that extends to every human. We are those who dwell in the everlasting fire, as Isaiah points out.

There is more to it than that, but this is just one facet of what scripture teaches about it. Everyone goes through the second death now, but only those who go willingly, spoken of as overcomers, will not be hurt of it, nor will it have power over them. For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

Ron

Noah spent years building the ark, having his faith tried, while being persecuted by those not given faith. 

same as here:  Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

He was rewarded when the "rain/fire"' came, being raised above the waters, receiving the end of their faith; the salvation of their souls

1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.  

If we are all in the LOF now, then when was the trial of believers faith prior to the "fire/rains"? 

Hey Zeek,

From what I understand, the trial of faith that Peter speaks of IS the lake of fire, spoken of as "fiery trials." This fire is the very presence of God, the life we live in him, and the message we bring to the world. I see Noah as a type of Christ, who, like Christ, was persecuted while preparing the ark, and as Christ prepared a baptism. He gathered all that would be saved into the ark, just as Christ gathers all who will be saved into God. The flood waters come, and while those in the ark are IN the water, they are not hurt of it. Only those outside are. Likewise, when the fire came in Pentecost, those gathered in Christ into God are IN the fire, but not hurt of it. Only those outside are. I do not see us as a type of Noah, but rather of all forms of life gathered by him into the ark, representing God. Of course, I am by no means above having my thinking adjusted, so please, if you see something that I am not, feel free to continue to evaluate this.

Thanks,

Ron

Ron

Hi Ron, I respectfully disagree, but me too could be wrong. 

1Pe 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

for me, flood is similtude of LOF/second death

2Pe 2:6  And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly;

2Pe 2:7  And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

2Pe 2:8  (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds);

2Pe 2:9  The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Pe 2:12  But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2Pe 2:13  And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

2Pe 2:17  These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest: to whom the mist of darkness is reserved forever.

2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; an

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

[Zeek]

Psa 21:8  Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.

Psa 21:9  Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.


Psa 1:1  Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.


Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[Zeek]

Ok, last post for now, i think people get tired of the "scripture" only approach. 

Psa 6:10  Let all mine enemies be ashamed and sore vexed: let them return and be ashamed suddenly.

Psa 7:8  The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.

Psa 7:9  Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Psa 7:10  My defense is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

Psa 7:11  God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Psa 21:9  Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.



Psa 9:3  When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

Psa 9:5  Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name forever and ever.

Psa 9:6  O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.

Psa 9:13  Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Psa 9:14  That I may show forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.

Psa 9:15  The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.

Psa 9:16  The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.

Psa 9:17  The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Psa 9:18  For the needy shall not always be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish forever.

[Zeek]

If the lake of fire is now, then no one can repent and enter the ark, as the door is shut:


Gen 7:16  And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.


prior to the RAIN,

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

but once the door is shut:

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

[gregoryfl]

Zeek,

Much to think about there, and I for sure will be considering and trying to understand what you are sharing. Thanks so much.

Ron

[gregoryfl]

Ron,

Let's say I'm neutral about your answer. :winkgrin:

Tell me when I'm wrong.
Can i summarize your answer as follows:
Everyone is in LoF right now.
Some choose to kneel in this life/LoF
Those who don't will do so after death.

If a religious noob so an extra question.
The ET understanding is simple. Kneel in this life=heaven. Don't kneel=eternal hell

The UR understanding of some is equal to the above ET vision but with spiritual fire/teaching
But you seem to have another version. "Hell on earth" plus some extra afterlife teaching.
Again I'm not arguing. Just collection diffrent opions....

"Fear the Lord" etc.
Eternal ET hell is kinda extreem.
But what I understand from your explanation is the other extreme.
Live like the devil. Die. Meet Jesus. Hi dude; You are real! All sins are forgiven.

You are not the first one on this forum to write such an opion; but I stil don't understand  :dunno:

Well, everything except the "Meet Jesus. Hi dude; you are real! All sins are forgiven" part is what I see. While not totally clear to me, I do see scripture speaking of mental torment and anguish, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and punishment being spoken of. Exactly how it all fits in I have such a finite understanding of it. What I see is that after death there will be a period of time where one will still be in the lake of fire, for I don't simply see it as expressed on earth by God, but that it ultimately is God himself, in Christ. How long that will be I don't know. Scripture speaks about it as a "portion" that those who are thrown into it receive. I also see this expressed by the Lord speaking of some receiving many stripes, and others few. Not literal stripes, but nevertheless a punishment of various degrees and for various lengths of time.

And so we all still sit under the Master's feet to learn of him.  :happygrin:

Ron

[WhiteWings]

Ron, thanks for you view on this confusing topic (for me).

I'll store the view in my head with the other puzzle pieces. I'm sure that suddenly all pieces fall together.
They usually do  :thumbsup:

[Zeek]

Zeek, I enjoy your posts, but it is hard to make the resurrection in 1 Corithians 15 all about coventual change and nothing about post-mortem life. The point of 1 Corinthians 15ish seems to be comforting those who think that fellow Christians who have died have missed out on the resurrection. I understand that those coming out of their graves written in Ezekial was a national resurrection, which I believe was accomplished during the 'silent years', but that doesn't negate the reality of a resurrection of the individual person in the after-life. Paul then goes on to verify that Christ is raised presently, even though He isn't seen, He is risen. He comforts them in saying that those standing there would in fact not preceed those who have passed on. He also says that if our hope is in this life only 'we of all men are most pitiable.' Sorry, just my little rant. When I try to make that group of scriptures all about 'covential change' it feels forced if you will.

love, Sarah

Hi Sarah,

I'm reading through this PDF book, thot u might be interested.  or anyone else here,

re: Israel's resurrection vs. individual bodily resurrection

http://gospelthemes.com/res.htm

[claypot]

"Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all SLEEP, but we SHALL all be CHANGED, ...in a moment, in the twinkling of any eye, ...AT THE LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet SHALL SOUND, and the DEAD SHALL be raised INCORRUPTIBLE, and we SHALL all be CHANGED. 

For THIS CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION and THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY... so WHEN ...this corruptible SHALL have put on incorruption, AND THIS MORTAL shall have put on IMMORTALITY, then shall be BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that IS WRITTEN:  DEATH is swallowed up in victory..."

IMO I again see all of Scripture as explaining the process from the beginning of creation to the finished Masterpiece, Jesus Christ, of each individual person. It includes much more than that but my main concern is seeing Gods message to me as a person. Scripture is meaningless to me otherwise. It would be like having a very good refrigerator manual when I need to know about my car if the Bible isn't God speaking to us about what and who we are.

God is showing us a mystery.

We shall not all sleep, we shall all be changed = we won't always be like we are...corruptible, mortal, carnal minded......

It will all seem like we were in a dream. It will happen that quick. God speaking life is like a trumpet sound. As He speaks we are made.

The rest is all what God is doing to us. He is putting on touches of incorruption and immortality.

cp

[Taffy]

We shall not all sleep, we shall all be changed = we won't always be like we are...corruptible, mortal, carnal minded......

ya Know Cp. This really Bugs me as too me it doesnt FIT...

To sleep means to be DEAD,...dead to KNOWING HIM....OR in the GRAVE, hades.


we speak  of spiritual Talk, BUT then refer to that of the Natural ONCE MORE...No more than that Thread yesterday on WALKING through WALLS etc..

For me your either DEAD or alive..Kinda makes the basic Logic....

My Life HID in HIM, being Born of HIM ,im ALIVE......so whos sleeping...I see those without BEING those sleeping...I also See Christ In All men also sleeping till AROUSED..., IF HES sleeping then we too are DEAD...

THE dead RISE FIRST....Those  IN HIM which SLEEP...HES the GOD OF THE LIVING NOT THE DEAD...

hopefully soon ill be shown clearer , therefore will be able to expound more...

we move from DEATH to LIFE...now...
soory Bud as with talking with Willie...certain things just dont fit for mine...its just where I am Right NOW

:icon_flower:

[claypot]

We shall not all sleep, we shall all be changed = we won't always be like we are...corruptible, mortal, carnal minded......

ya Know Cp. This really Bugs me as too me it doesnt FIT...

To sleep means to be DEAD,...dead to KNOWING HIM....OR in the GRAVE, hades.


we speak  of spiritual Talk, BUT then refer to that of the Natural ONCE MORE...No more than that Thread yesterday on WALKING through WALLS etc..

For me your either DEAD or alive..Kinda makes the basic Logic....

My Life HID in HIM, being Born of HIM ,im ALIVE......so whos sleeping...I see those without BEING those sleeping...I also See Christ In All men also sleeping till AROUSED..., IF HES sleeping then we too are DEAD...

THE dead RISE FIRST....Those  IN HIM which SLEEP...HES the GOD OF THE LIVING NOT THE DEAD...

hopefully soon ill be shown clearer , therefore will be able to expound more...

we move from DEATH to LIFE...now...
soory Bud as with talking with Willie...certain things just dont fit for mine...its just where I am Right NOW

:icon_flower:

Obviously I don't get it all either and I appreciate your thoughts about my thoughts.

Taf, I really looked at sleep here as death also. In my mind it read like God saying......Hey, you all are not going to remain sleeping, you are all going to be changed..........

In my own life this is very true. I once was lost and now I'm found or compared to the finished product I start out dead or asleep.

Where exactly, Taf, are we in disagreement?

PS Hey where you refer to the dead rising first.....this has confused me a bit as I see it is only the dead that will rise at all. The living are already risen!

cp

[Taffy]

We shall not all sleep, we shall all be changed = we won't always be like we are...corruptible, mortal, carnal minded......

ya Know Cp. This really Bugs me as too me it doesnt FIT...

To sleep means to be DEAD,...dead to KNOWING HIM....OR in the GRAVE, hades.


we speak  of spiritual Talk, BUT then refer to that of the Natural ONCE MORE...No more than that Thread yesterday on WALKING through WALLS etc..

For me your either DEAD or alive..Kinda makes the basic Logic....

My Life HID in HIM, being Born of HIM ,im ALIVE......so whos sleeping...I see those without BEING those sleeping...I also See Christ In All men also sleeping till AROUSED..., IF HES sleeping then we too are DEAD...

THE dead RISE FIRST....Those  IN HIM which SLEEP...HES the GOD OF THE LIVING NOT THE DEAD...

hopefully soon ill be shown clearer , therefore will be able to expound more...

we move from DEATH to LIFE...now...
soory Bud as with talking with Willie...certain things just dont fit for mine...its just where I am Right NOW

:icon_flower:

Obviously I don't get it all either and I appreciate your thoughts about my thoughts.

Taf, I really looked at sleep here as death also. In my mind it read like God saying......Hey, you all are not going to remain sleeping, you are all going to be changed..........

In my own life this is very true. I once was lost and now I'm found or compared to the finished product I start out dead or asleep.

Where exactly, Taf, are we in disagreement?

PS Hey where you refer to the dead rising first.....this has confused me a bit as I see it is only the dead that will rise at all. The living are already risen!

cp

Thanks Cp..

If we take the Natural DEATH being hades\the grave , as In the dead KNOW NOTHING for they SLEEP...APPLY THAT now to the spiritual

To me being dead , is dead NOT knowing HIM,? In simple terms.BLIND, DEAF, thsoe NOT HEARING HIS voice

A trumpet, a warning\message or Voice..Says to me, AWAKE from sleep,, moving from the DEATH of the OLD C to the LIFE in the NEW...
WHO OTHER than the DEAD does this speak of?..for those In HIM, The TRUE Shepherd HEAR HIS voice..

LIFE is who HE IS.......For Mine the GOD of the Living NOT the dead....the DEAD, those NOT knowing HIM roused from sleep TO KNOW  HIS VOICE...

I dont see soul sleep as MY soul is ALIVE NOW IN HIM..I used too, but no more...which opens up other issues..hence im learning...tis what I see NOW..what is ..is now...


As for disagreement Bro..I dont Know , just maybe the terms we use :dontknow:

Arise MY eyes lest I sleep a DEATH

Psa 13:3 Consider [and] hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the [sleep of] death;


Yes Cp...why would those ALIVE be risen ,Tis applicable only to the DEAD surely?

Could it be BOTH the Living and the DEAD are In Christ? for TRUE LIFE is HID in HIM?

Those being withOUT= DEAD to those who are WITH = ALIVE in HIM?

Could It be Paul , Giving HOPE for the Lost? hope TO ALL WHO ARE with and without?

Those DEAD Being risen now  IN the Clouds and those who REMAIN alive ( messengers with HIM) TOGETHER AS ONE?

:icon_flower:

[claypot]

Taf, you wrote....

is dead NOT knowing HIM,? In simple terms.BLIND, DEAF, thsoe NOT HEARING HIS voice

This is key to me. I am being made. I once did not know him as you describe yet now I am seeing and hearing something. I feel kind of alive. I look forward to another home which to me is the spiritual realm, the realm of God, the realm of peace and contentment, the realm of life.

I just re-read your thoughts about the dead rising first. Even that which is alive in me seems trapped in a dead world yet at some point all will rise, first the dead, then the living will rise into newness of life as a whole.

Taf, are you the one who wrote on another thread about the words nowhere and now here? Was it Peacemaker? Anyway, that was interesting. Kind of like evil and live and devil and lived and so on. Words are funny things!

cp

[Livelystone]

Greetings

Christ is the fire within that if we do not "quench the spirit" will do its work in us mortifying the deeds of the flesh so that......... THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST !!!

The first resurrection is for now and blessed are those of the first resurrection and they will reign with Christ (through Christ in them) in this time (our lives on earth and in a body of flesh).

The second resurrection is what happens to everyone immediately following their physical death as all of the dead both small and great are resurrected before the Great White Throne where those not found written in the Book of Life are tossed into the Lake of Fire. This is not a thousand years later as taught by most but "the next day" to everyone as soon as they experience what is normally called to be when after someone dies and has a funeral.

While we have Christ within as one spirit the Lake of Fire is as the voice of many waters with each drop of water being a manifested son of God..........

One is either drowning a second death in this sea of many waters or they are what makes up this "voice of many waters"  aka Lake of Fire but ALL ARE IN THE SAME PLACE (dispensation of His Administration)

The above was prophesied of back in Luke

Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing [them] in [their] hands.[/b]

Blessings

Doug

[jabcat]

A good word from J. Preston Eby;

Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of death and hell and sin, for God shall destroy death in the lake of fire, He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin and rebellion in the lake of fire. How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! when God's Kingdom shall be All in All, and there shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death? How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape? Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire - it is SIN and DEATH and HELL that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH!
The second death undoes all the work of the first death in the same manner that the last Adam undid all the work of the first Adam.   Creation was made subject to vanity for a purpose! Sin was allowed for wise ends, but when those ends have been secured it will have to cease to exist.

God's blessing, James.

[Molly]

Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan." Exodus 22:22
"Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits." Exodus 23:6
"During the seventh year, let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what they leave. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Exodus 23:11
"Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:10
"Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." Leviticus 19:15
"When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 23:22
"If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave." Leviticus 25:25, 35, 39
"If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien's clan, he retains the right of redemption." Leviticus 25:47-48
"He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing." Deuteronomy 10:18
"At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied." Deuteronomy 14:28-29
"However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you." Deuteronomy 15:4
"If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother." Deuteronomy 15:7
"Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near, so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin." Deuteronomy 15:9
"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." Deuteronomy 15:11
"Do not take advantage of a hired man who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother Israelite or an alien living in one of your towns." Deuteronomy 24:14
"Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge." Deuteronomy 24:17
"When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow." Deuteronomy 24:19-21
"'Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.' Then all the people shall say, Amen!'" Deuteronomy 27:19
"He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor." 1 Samuel 2:8
"as the time when the Jews got relief from their enemies, and as the month when their sorrow was turned into joy and their mourning into a day of celebration. He wrote them to observe the days as days of feasting and joy and giving presents of food to one another and gifts to the poor." Esther 9:22
"When daylight is gone, the murderer rises up and kills the poor and needy; in the night he steals forth like a thief." Job 24:14
"because I rescued the poor who cried for help, and the fatherless who had none to assist him." Job 29:12
"Have I not wept for those in trouble? Has not my soul grieved for the poor?" Job 30:25
"If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary." Job 31:16
"The LORD is a refuge for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble." Psalm 9:9
"But the needy will not always be forgotten, nor the hope of the afflicted ever perish." Psalm 9:18
" Because of the oppression of the weak and the groaning of the needy, I will now arise, says the LORD, I will protect them from those who malign them. " Psalm 12:5
"You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge." Psalm 14:6
"This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles." Psalm 34:6
"My whole being will exclaim, Who is like you, 0 LORD? You rescue the poor from those too strong for them, the poor and needy from those who rob them.'" Psalm 35:10
"The wicked draw the sword and bend the bow to bring down the poor and needy, to slay those whose ways are upright." Psalm 37:14
"Yet I am poor and needy; may the Lord think of me. You are my help and my deliverer; O my God, do not delay." Psalm 40:17
"A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling." Psalm 68:5
"Your people settled in it, and from your bounty, 0 God, you provided for the poor." Psalm 68:10
"The poor will see and be glad-- you who seek God, may your hearts live! The LORD hears the needy and does not despise his captive people." Psalm 69:32-33
"Yet I am poor and needy; come quickly to me, O God. You are my help and my deliverer; O LORD , do not delay." Psalm 70:5
"He will defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; he will crush the oppressor." Psalm 72:4
"For he will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the needy and save the needy from death." Psalm 72:12-13
"Do not let the oppressed retreat in disgrace; may the poor and needy praise your name." Psalm 74:21
"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." Psalm 82:3-4
"But he lifted the needy out of their affliction and increased their families like flocks." Psalm 107:41
"For he stands at the right hand of the needy one, to save his life from those who condemn him." Psalm 109:31
"He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor, his righteousness endures forever; his horn will be lifted high in honor." Psalm 112:9
"He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap;" Psalm 113:7
"I will bless her with abundant provisions; her poor will I satisfy with food." Psalm 132:15
"I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Psalm 140:12
"He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets prisoners free" Psalm 146:7
"The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked." Psalm 146:9
"I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Proverbs 13:23
"He who despises his neighbor sins, but blessed is he who is kind to the needy." Proverbs 14:21
"He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God." Proverbs 14:31
"The LORD tears down the proud man's house but he keeps the widow's boundaries intact." Proverbs 15:25
"Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud." Proverbs 16:19
"He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished." Proverbs 17:5
"He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done." Proverbs 19:17
"If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." Proverbs 21:13
"A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor." Proverbs 22:9
"He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich -- both come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16
"Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court." Proverbs 22:22
"A ruler who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain that leaves no crops." Proverbs 28:3
"He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." Proverbs 28:27
"The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern." Proverbs 29:7
"those whose teeth are swords and whose jaws are set with knives to devour the poor from the earth, the needy from among mankind." Proverbs 30:14
"Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:9
"She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy." Proverbs 31:20
"If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still." Ecclesiastes 5:8
"Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow." Isaiah 1:17
"The LORD enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?' declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty." Isaiah 3:14-15
"to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless." Isaiah 10:2
"With righteousness he will judge the needy; with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked." Isaiah 11:4
"The poorest of the poor will find pasture, and the needy will lie down in safety. But your root I will destroy by famine; it will slay your survivors." Isaiah 14:30
"You have been a refuge for the poor, a refuge for the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat. For the breath of the ruthless is like a storm driving against a wall." Isaiah 25:4
"Once more the humble will rejoice in the LORD ; the needy will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 29:19
"The scoundrel's methods are wicked, he makes up evil schemes to destroy the poor with lies, even when the plea of the needy is just." Isaiah 32:7
"The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them." Isaiah 41:17
"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?" Isaiah 58:6-7
"If you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday." Isaiah 58:10
"The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners." Isaiah 61:1
"On your clothes men find the lifeblood of the innocent poor, though you did not catch them breaking in. Yet in spite of all this you say I am innocent.'" Jeremiah 2:34
"I thought, These are only the poor; they are foolish, for they do not know the way of the LORD, the requirements of their God.'" Jeremiah 5:4
"(They) have grown fat and sleek. Their evil deeds have no limit; they do not plead the case of the fatherless to win it, they do not defend the rights of the poor." Jeremiah 5:28
"if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm," Jeremiah 7:6
"This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place." Jeremiah 22:3
"'He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD." Jeremiah 22:16
"Sing to the LORD! Give praise to the LORD! He rescues the life of the needy from the hands of the wicked." Jeremiah 20:13
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." Ezekiel 16:49
"He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked." Ezekiel 18:7
"The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice." Ezekiel 22:29
"This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. They sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals. They trample on the heads of the poor as upon the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name.'" Amos 2:6-7
"Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, Bring us some drinks!'" Amos 4:1
"Hear this, you who trample the needy and do away with the poor of the land." Amos 8:4
"Buying the poor with silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, selling even the sweepings with the wheat." Amos 8:6
"Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other." Zechariah 7:10
" So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,' says the LORD Almighty." Malachi 3:5

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/poor.htm

[WhiteWings]

In every case above the word TORMENT is

928 basanizo { bas-an-id'-zo}

from 931; TDNT - 1:561,96; v

AV - torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1; 12

GK - 989 { basanivzw }

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture
3) to torture
4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5) to be harassed, distressed
5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Strong's Enhanced Lexicon.

The second defenition may be right in secular use but not when describing the acts of God.
God already knows everything so He doesn't need torture to get questions answered.

[Chris]

Willie,

you and i are on different pages when it comes to "physical, bodily" death.  I don't think that physical death has anything to do with second death or "first death" or any scriptures regarding those deaths,

other than physical things reflecting/symbolizing the spiritual. 

I agree! To me the "two" death have to do with the "two" men (in whom we are all summed up)... the first Adam and the last Adam.

And just as we have all been baptized into the death of the first Adam (as a result of sin) we have all been baptized into the death of the last Adam (through whom comes the resurrection of the dead).

It is by "dying" and "being buried" WITH CHRIST (the "second death" or the death of "the second man") that we can also know THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION (LIFE)!! Amen?

I agree with Graham! The lake of fire is a very NOW experience, for NOW is the judgment of this world.

Christ came "to send fire on the earth"!! (For we are recompensed "in the earth". Pro 11:31)

So many quote Heb 9:27 out of context, claiming that this passage says that men are not judged until after they die (meaning after they PHYSICALLY die) but is that what the passage says? Whose death is that passage speaking about? Men, in general? Or the death of Jesus Christ ("the second man") specifically?

Heb 9:24-28 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, but AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Christ came ONCE (in the end of the world) TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) and AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT!

We are judged BY THE CROSS OF CHRIST!!

It is not until we are baptized into HIS death that we can know the power of HIS resurrection. Amen?

As I see this applies both before and after the cross, as Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. But that which is spiritual had to be made manifest in the physical and so it was made manifest "in the end of the world".... though Abraham, not having received the promise (Christ in the flesh) died IN FAITH having seen His day from afar off. (God is the God OF THE LIVING, not the dead!! And He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!!)

As I see it, we all have our "part" in the lake of fire; but if we walk with Him through the fire we shall not be hurt. (Ref: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who were cast into the fire BOUND but were, afterward, seen walking LOOSE with one like unto the son of God... the fourth man in the fire... the resurrection and the life... the one by/through whom we overcome sin/death and become children of the resurrection... passing from death to life).

Just one understanding among many, though, I know.  :bigGrin:

[Chris]

If you look at the above quote it would seem that the first death is in Adam, the second death is to be dead in Christ. You know..first Adam, second Adam...two deaths...dead in both Adams. I hope this makes sense.  :grin:

(2Cor.5:14) "if one died for all then were all dead".  (Rev. 14:13 "BLESSED are the dead which DIE IN THE LORD FROM HENCEFORTH: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them".

Perfect sense!!!  :thumbsup:

Should have read onto the next page before posting.  :mblush: (trying to make my way through the thread - only on page 2 so far.  :msealed: )

[Chris]

OK, up to pg 3 now and see that I have already posted to this thread.  :grin: