The Christian Bible..."Hard Sayings", Things That Make You Say "Hmmmmm"

[Taffy]

BOT (back on topic)

John 6:43,44;  ...You must not be grumbling with one another!  No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him;  and I will raise him up on the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age].  It has been written in the Prophets, "and they will all be taught by God    [Isa. 54:13].

Just thought about the following. Likely not relevant. But I usually don't care about such futilities :laughing7:

And there was evening [Erev: chaos] and there was morning [Boker: order, clarity], a fifth day. Again a climb in the level of order of life on earth, erev giving way to boker.

If the last day is the daytime part of the day it could also be read as "the last order" or "end of chaos"

yes--that's too cool!!  And an end to those folks who like to create chaos so they can bring their own order out of it.  No more chaos.  No more night.


23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

--Rev 21

Kinda like moving from DARKNESS to Light....Night to day..evil to Good.......Death to Life..old C to new C....

gee I sound Like a recor on rewind... :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

I wonder what 'no night' means.
No more romantic sunsets or....

25 And the gates shall never be shut anymore because there is no Erev=chaos=danger to keep outside.
Meaning a perfect world in and outside of the city.


Edit: That contradics verse 23 that states there is no sun because God is light now.

[Taffy]

I wonder what 'no night' means.
No more romantic sunsets or....

25 And the gates shall never be shut anymore because there is no Erev=chaos=danger to keep outside.

dya Know the Gates of hell can equally mean..the Lips of your mouth..,...one can speak from the grave...yaDONT have to be LITERALLY dead to be there :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

dya Know the Gates of hell can equally mean..the Lips of your mouth

But only for people with braces I assume because hell has bars of iron. :reachout:

[Taffy]

dya Know the Gates of hell can equally mean..the Lips of your mouth

But only for people with braces I assume because hell has bars of iron. :reachout:

Nah..not for folk who wear da braces....But for sure those BARS  of Prison, speaking to those in Hades Maybe, dead but not knowing it :icon_flower:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

[WhiteWings]

I was asked by PM how the Christian Bible translated these verses   Here's my answer also posted here, as it fits this thread....
Gal. 1:5  and may God be glorified for the remaining ages [the present age and the Last Age' of the ages!  Amen ["let it be true"]!

Matthew 25:46  Then these will go away into the Punishment of the Last Age [Destruction by the Fire of the Second Death], yet those who were just, into Life in the Last Age."

Romans 16:26  yet now has been made apparent in accordance with the requirement of the God of the ages, and through the Writing of the Prophets, and has been made known to all the pagans to result in obedience by faith,

Does the Companion Reference Guide have some additional insightful information about those verses?

[Tony N]

Hence they were DEAD to HIM, For to be carnally MINDED , is DEATH.

The carnal MIND is enmity ( Hatred) ..

Dear Taffy,

I agree with you wholeheartedly about "they were dead to Him."
However . . .
the words, "carnally minded" are not in any Greek text.

Rom 8:6 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,

flesh is as you already know: sarx
disposition is: phronema
Mind is: nous

People might get the mistaken notion that you are saying "if you use your mind it will bring spiritual death." Or they might think you are saying "if you use your sinful mind you will die spiritually."

Neither is the case.

The disposition of the flesh is that it leads one away from God. That disposition makes one dead *to God* in that it make one not care about the things of God.

Just thought you'd like to know what others are thinking (not using their carnal mind of course).

[Taffy]

Hence they were DEAD to HIM, For to be carnally MINDED , is DEATH.

The carnal MIND is enmity ( Hatred) ..

Dear Taffy,

I agree with you wholeheartedly about "they were dead to Him."
However . . .
the words, "carnally minded" are not in any Greek text.

Rom 8:6 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,

flesh is as you already know: sarx
disposition is: phronema
Mind is: nous

People might get the mistaken notion that you are saying "if you use your mind it will bring spiritual death." Or they might think you are saying "if you use your sinful mind you will die spiritually."

Neither is the case.

The disposition of the flesh is that it leads one away from God. That disposition makes one dead *to God* in that it make one not care about the things of God.

Just thought you'd like to know what others are thinking (not using their carnal mind of course).

No bro...relate the term carnal, elsewhere..makes as much sense to me in   * to be of the Flesh *, (we in HIM  being NOTof the flesh)..for the Fleshy Minded can not comprehend that which is above , tis Known as the WISDOM below for mine Bro, soulish wisdom....NOT comprehending HE and the WISDOM above....

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

So, That which dont see\hear remain In death..Hence..to be Carnally minded is DEATH ..the Carnal mind is enmity..Hatred toward the Truth....

such young babes in Christ suffered for their carnality..seeing only the wisdom below,and desiring at times to stay there

1Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. 
1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 

Desiring the ways of old, as were the Galatians......

The disposition of the flesh is that it leads one away from God. That disposition makes one dead *to God* in that it make one not care about the things of God

Not Quite for mine Bro but Close

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be

if ya wish..^ the disposition of the Flesh can not comprehend the ways OF HIM ,therefore DEAD to HIM ,Not able to KNow who HE IS......" :icon_flower:...DEAD in their Graves....Dead men walking....LET the ^^dead^^ BURY THE **DEAD**.......NOW HOW can the dead bury the Dead...?..more Mystical ways of the word aye bro?

To say it makes one not care for the ways of God, surely doesnt Hold, as for sure those in Moses seat CARED for the ways of the LAW, persecuting such folk endeavouring to UPHOLD IT.

If ya been around Tent for a few seasons and seen the times Ive posted this ..time and time again explaining it..youd know otherwise Bro :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

I was asked by PM how the Christian Bible translated these verses   Here's my answer also posted here, as it fits this thread....
Gal. 1:5  and may God be glorified for the remaining ages [the present age and the Last Age' of the ages!  Amen ["let it be true"]!

Matthew 25:46  Then these will go away into the Punishment of the Last Age [Destruction by the Fire of the Second Death], yet those who were just, into Life in the Last Age."

Romans 16:26  yet now has been made apparent in accordance with the requirement of the God of the ages, and through the Writing of the Prophets, and has been made known to all the pagans to result in obedience by faith,

Does the Companion Reference Guide have some additional insightful information about those verses?

This won't be all inclusive, but a few notes from The Christian Bible Companion Guide.  (WW, mailed a contact letter to CBsociety today).

They list several different variations/contexts;

aiwn(ion) the longest time period known in the Bible:  the Gr. literally means a time period during which things "exist" in a "constant" state;  the first age was from Adam to the flood;  the present (second) age is from the flood to the destruction of this earth by fire;  and the third (last) age is fro the creation of the new earth (Paradise) and has no end....[Jabcat says   Mat. 12:32, 39, 40, 49, Mark 4:19 are a few examples of usage of this variation..]

aiwnoc twn aiwnwn (ionoston ionon)  Age of the ages (Last)..period of THE UN-IF-BE-periods"  literally, the most important age of the ages, which means;  the Last Age....Eph. 3:21   "One Yesu for all the eras of the Last Age of the ages!  [Jabcat says a few examples are Mat. 21:19, Mark 3:29, John 4:14, I Co. 8:13 2John 2. in us, and will be with us even to the Last Age]

Age (of/in the Last) of the ages AIWNIOC (ionios)  Examples; Mat. 18:8 feet and to be thrown into the Fire of the Last Age!, Mat. 19:16, John 3:15,16 but shall be having life in the Last Age..

[jabcat]

Civilasations dating back to 5300 BC (and older) are found)

Can you give me a link to that?  I'm trying to find the oldest known civilizations.

I'm not talking a bunch of neanderthals in caves making stick figures, either.

I'm talking about modern civilization--homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. Adam.

If we're talking 6,000+ years to Adam and Eve, who were these goobers in the caves?  From the "chaos", a prior age/creation?

[Molly]

Civilasations dating back to 5300 BC (and older) are found)

Can you give me a link to that?  I'm trying to find the oldest known civilizations.

I'm not talking a bunch of neanderthals in caves making stick figures, either.

I'm talking about modern civilization--homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. Adam.

If we're talking 6,000+ years to Adam and Eve, who were these goobers in the caves?  From the "chaos", a prior age/creation?

There is no reason to believe that the age of the earth is equal to the creation of Adam.

Adam gets his own two chapters in the Bible and the sequence of his creation is all out of sorts with Genesis 1.

Then the rest of the Old Testament is about the generations of Adam within very specific parameters (that is, leading to Jesus).

[Tony N]

Taffy, what if the flesh has nothing to do with the mind?

[Taffy]

Taffy, what if the flesh has nothing to do with the mind?

well for a starters T..lets dispense of these :icon_flower:

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

:icon_flower:

Maybe a Renewing of the MIND come the NEW C..is needed...As Indeed all that is , IS HIM...we sure dont glory in the Flesh. :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

Civilasations dating back to 5300 BC (and older) are found)

Can you give me a link to that?  I'm trying to find the oldest known civilizations.

I'm not talking a bunch of neanderthals in caves making stick figures, either.

I'm talking about modern civilization--homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. Adam.

If we're talking 6,000+ years to Adam and Eve, who were these goobers in the caves?  From the "chaos", a prior age/creation?

There is no reason to believe that the age of the earth is equal to the creation of Adam.

Yeah, I don't believe it does...I'm saying I wonder about the cave dwellers, the extinct animals (saber tooth tiger for instance), "prehistoric" man, etc...I wonder who/what these things were, not really "man", some sort of prior creation, ages before Adam, stuff going on for millinea then the "chaos/earth became without form and void"?  This just interests me, and I think many Christians reject all that based on the young earth theory.."Adam/Eve, 6k years, everything else is lies" sort of thing...

[Molly]

Civilasations dating back to 5300 BC (and older) are found)

Can you give me a link to that?  I'm trying to find the oldest known civilizations.

I'm not talking a bunch of neanderthals in caves making stick figures, either.

I'm talking about modern civilization--homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. Adam.

If we're talking 6,000+ years to Adam and Eve, who were these goobers in the caves?  From the "chaos", a prior age/creation?

There is no reason to believe that the age of the earth is equal to the creation of Adam.

Yeah, I don't believe it does...I'm saying I wonder about the cave dwellers, the extinct animals (saber tooth tiger for instance), "prehistoric" man, etc...I wonder who/what these things were, not really "man", some sort of prior creation, ages before Adam, stuff going on for millinea then the "chaos/earth became without form and void"?  This just interests me, and I think many Christians reject all that based on the young earth theory.."Adam/Eve, 6k years, everything else is lies" sort of thing...

It is interesting and I don't have the answers lol.

We are told that Adam is subjected to futility [death] in hope that all of creation will be liberated into the glorious freedom of the sons of God...I assume that means life, no more death, no more predatory practices, lion lying down with the lamb sort of thing.  I can see this as a physical thing (although I hear you spiritual folks).  So is Adam, are we [in Christ], some type of deliverers of all creation?

Something happens between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1: 2.   I don't think God would create something without form/chaos and empty/void--something rendered it to that state.  It's like the timeline is all messed up.


28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

--Gen 1

[jabcat]

Yep  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Jabcat, Molly,

I have an answer to the cave dweller question.
A few months ago I wanted to start a thread about the first chapters of Genesis. Because the interpretation in kinda unconventional (but not rejecting God). I PMed Martin about it but didn't recieve a reply yet.
Let me summarize it as: Genisis doesn't contradic science. Lots is based on translation errors/interpretation. Some things are of the same maginitude as the forever/age thing. Perhaps even bigger when speaking of snakes.
I can PM the summary. Yep it's a summary of a book I made for my own use. So none of the research is my own.

[WhiteWings]

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

--Gen 1

Replenish meant to fill, not refill during the time of writing KJV.
All more recent Bibles, including KJV2000 translate it as fill.

Something happens between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1: 2.   I don't think God would create something without form/chaos and empty/void--something rendered it to that state.  It's like the timeline is all messed up.

Gap theory?
The creation days are not all in chronological order. There is no "The 1st day" "The 2nd day"
But "day one" "day two". Days can overlap. Etc

[jabcat]

hmmmm.....interesting.  Wonder about replenish before the KJV...way before?

I personally think it would be an interesting study as long as it's as you say...within scripture, seeking understanding, revelatory interpretation, honoring the  "God-breathed" aspect ,etc....I can't speak for Martin or the forum as a whole though, this is MY opinion...maybe Martin will be able to get back with you soon...

[WhiteWings]

I personally think it would be an interesting study as long as it's as you say...within scripture, seeking understanding, revelatory interpretation, honoring the  "God-breathed" aspect ,etc....I can't speak for Martin or the forum as a whole though, this is MY opinion...maybe Martin will be able to get back with you soon...

IMO the view is honoring God just as much (or more) than the classical view. It are not just claims without explaining what led to that claim/conclusion. All based on the Hebrew texts.
But as said it's controversial. Bit like URists are heretics because they are no ETs

[Molly]

That word does mean to fill.  It also means to replenish.  I wonder why the KJV scholars picked the word replenish, unless they, too, felt it was the most appropriate for a variety of reasons.

But, we also see that Adam is given no such directive.  He is set apart, fenced off, in the garden, and his directive is to dress and keep the garden, quite different from the 'subdue,' of Genesis 1,  which implies more of a domination, 'treading down,' than a nurturing and tending.  Adam is to be a farmer, 'to till the soil.'

There are other scriptures kicking about, which refer to a time of no Adam--



22For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man [Adam], and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

--Jer 4

[B_T]

The hardest saying is : "Whoever doesn't hate his parents and even his own life, cannot be my disciple".

[jabcat]

That is problematic in a way, but here's the Christian Bible translation...it may help.

Mat. 10:37    Whoever is fond of his father or mother above me, isn't worthy of Me;  and whoever is fond of his son or dauther above Me, isn't worthy of me.  38 whoever isn't taking his stake and continually following after Me, isn't worthy of Me   39  Whoever finds his sentient being [his life], will destroy it [in the Destruction]; and whoever destroys his sentient being on My account will find it [alive in the Last Age]

God's blessing, James.

[WhiteWings]

What version did you quote from B_T?

I checked a dozen versions and they all sound similar to the one Jabcat quoted.
No 'hate' in any of those versions.

[jabcat]

Here's another "hard saying" from TCB... WW, how do you think this fits into one of your caption verses, about those that are disobedient?  This one....Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....Some of these things really do make me say "hmmmmm"

Hebrews 3:12 and onward for several verses (in part).....You must be continually looking out, brothers and sisters, so that there won't be at any time in any of you a wicked, unbelieving heart, in withdrawing from the living God!  ....so that none of you might be hardened by the enticement of wrongdoing!....Today if you hear His voice you must not harden your hearts as in the rebellion!...  For who was it that rebelled when they heard him...  Now with who was He disgusted for forty years?  Wasn't it with those who did things that were wrong, whose carcasses fell in the wasteland? ....to those who were unpersuaded?  So we observe that they weren't able to enter because of unbelief....For we too have had the Good Message delievered to us, just like they also did;  but the Word they heard didn't benefit them, because it hadn't been blended together with faith by those who heard it.  So then, we who are Believers are going to enter into that stopping [Promised land/Paradise of The Last Age], just as He has declared, "As I promised wih an oath in My anger, They will never enter into My stoppping", although His works had come into being at the foundation of the world....so then, since it is left over for some to enter into it, and those who formerly had the good message delivered to them, didn't enter because of their unpersuadableness.