Daniels' dream and end times

[Nancy]

Hi there all,

What does anyone here think of end times prophesy and whether we are coming up to them or not?
My feeling is that Daniel in his dream interpretation, was talking of the four empires at that time vis, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome; and the 10 horns are the 10 emperors of Rome starting with Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, (the beast) Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian with Titus his son destroying the Temple in 70AD.  To me Daniel was a Jew, prophesying for Jews not for the gentile world.
When i googled on this subject, there are so many different interpretations, if you believed in them all, you go dizzy, and the dates always come and go and nothing happens.
That's not to say that nothing will happen but surely as christians we cannot go on forever hoping that this is finally it and having our hopes dashed all the time.

What are your thoughts?
Godbless
Nancy

[gregoryfl]

Hey Nancy,

I personally have 2 understandings concerning any scripture, one the plain literal surface meaning, and then the spiritual truths which take up many layers underneath.

Regarding Daniel's prophecy, my thoughts are that all scripture has been fulfilled, including of course what you just shared. I see it historically being pretty much what you described there. I do not personally see it having some kind of fulfillment in our time. I see us living now in revelation 21 and 22.

Ron

[martincisneros]

Don't forget about this thread 'cause I want to say a whole lot more about this one before the end of the year, but I really haven't spent enough time with the book of Daniel yet.  Lord Jesus has had me focused on the book of Philemon for the most part, for the last two and a half years.  I've spent quality time in the book of Revelation during that time period and I have read through Daniel a couple of times, but not the kind of time that I wanna spend with it.  I prefer to take a book of the Bible and read it from start to finish aloud several different times in one sitting many, many times.  And I haven't done that yet with Daniel with that really concentrated effort at letting it dwell in me richly for the Holy Spirit to begin to really put it all together for me over several months/years/decades/centuries.  I haven't been with a book of the Bible enough yet until I wake myself up muttering the whole thing and until I've built it into my dreams and until there's little else that I think of in the shower or when I'm under pressure or at other times.  My top priority is being rooted, built up, and established in the whole book on that level, overflowing in it with thanksgiving as it dwells in my heart in all wisdom and becomes a tangible expression of the living Christ within me teaching me everything it's got to offer.

There's little that I could say about the book, at this particular moment in time, that would be relevant to this thread and that would involve no speculations, but I'll have more later.  I'm just now to the point of understanding why I've read Philemon 53,000 times or so.  It was St. Paul's most important epistle.  Now, I'd love to get into that right now, but I'm not hijacking the thread.  Plus, not much that I could write at this stage on that would be coherent 'cause it's still over in the area of my imagination where "I finally 'got it'" but it's too big for me to put into words without just going into a level of the preach that I never have yet mastered being able to do via typing 'cause it comes way too fast and all I can do is blab it out.  I managed to get it out yesterday, partially, and I'll have another opportunity to share it Wednesday evening.  I hope my brain will get enough of a photograph of what I'll say Wednesday night for me to be able to finally start writing a few things.  I have a feeling that it'll be really cool to be able to get into the book of Daniel on that level later this spring or in the summer, depending on when/how this harvest fully materializes.  It's really cool when you're finally at the stage of putting in the sickle.  I'm almost to that stage with Revelation as well.  Almost, but there are parts of it that haven't germinated for me yet.

Off of the top of my head from what I've read so far, Daniel seems to be a picture of Christ to a certain degree.  No sin ever came up in his life.  He is said to have done one of those 21 day partial fasts in his 90s.  When he and the others went into Babylonian captivity he was used by God to outline history until the coming of Christ.  He spoke of the Persian, Greek, and Roman empires that would be after his life.  It's the tiny, tiny segment of the Body of Christ that are Premillenial Dispensationalists that try to make much of Daniel's 70th week as though it hadn't been fulfilled, and they'll claim from that that the abomination of desolation, the anointing of the most holy, and the bringing in of everlasting righteousness haven't happened yet.  Although most Christian groups across the planet laugh that off hysterically, to me, there is the possibility of a time of Jacob's trouble and a time similar to the time that Joseph faced for 14 years, but we've not seen the 7 years of plenty yet for several reasons that I can't get into, if that were how things were to play out leading up to the millenium.  Some people twist the son of man coming with the clouds of glory to the ancient of days as though there were some implication in that in their cosmic rambo scenarios regarding the second coming, but that was talking about His ascension to Father and not some of the other scenarios speculated about.  I'm restraining myself from speaking further about it until I've had intimate quality time with it, as I've said.  Otherwise, I'd resort to the proof texting that many others resort to.  And mine would be on par with anybody else's creative ideas about the book, if I haven't had my time in my Fortress of Solitude about it and with it.

[Nathan]

It's been quite a few years for me, but Daniel was one of the first books I began to teach on.  Granted, what I taught was out of another man's lesson book and it was totally tradional as well .  .which ironically is the "tiny part" Martin was referring to.  The 70 weeks are directly connected with the book of Revelation.  So much so that when I completed Daniel, I "had" to go into Revelation because there were so many worms out of the can that Daniel opened.

At any rate, it's all in the past and I've thrown all those notes away.  I to believe what Daniel was seeing was events that would unfold for his people, the Jews.  And that there are actually historical accounts of world tyrants that fit the descriptions of Daniel's detailed predictions to a "t".  Most of it all happened in what is called the 400 years of silence . .which is pretty much the timeframe between Malachi and Matthew.  That's all the natural plain of things.  The book is still very much as relevant as any other book, but it needs to be read in the same plain as all the other books of Script as well . . .spiritually rather than naturally.

[Dallas]

Hello nancy, I would say that is bang on! Good to hear and peace to you.

[Molly]

I've just looked at Daniel 2 and Daniel 7.

Daniel 2 tells of a horrible vision of a man with four parts (which correspond to the four beasts=kingdoms of Revelation).

Each part is associated with a metal, and each metal gets harder and harder--gold, silver, bronze, and iron.

The hardness of the metal corresponds to what metal was important to each of those empires, and particularly in warfare--thus, the last world system, the Roman, is the hardest of all, iron, the most successful in warfare, the most brutal. 

Daniel 2 describes two systems growing side by side--in the days of those kings, the LORD will set up his own kingdom that will never be destroyed.  It does describe the fourth kingdom, Roman, separating into two legs, and ending in feet of clay and iron mixture.  The feet--the foundation--of this kingdom is its weak spot, and it is from the feet that it will finally be destroyed by the stone made without hands.

I see this as prophecy which is yet to happen.

[Molly]

31Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

32This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

33His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.



There will be nothing left of man's world systems when Daniel's prophecy is fulfilled.  It will be replaced by the mountain of God.

[Molly]

When Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world--he meant of this world system --which is built on man, not on God.  The original Roman rulers flat out called themselves God, and although they may not advertise it today, they still think the same way.  The head of Babylon [gold] is the mind of those living in this system.  It is the mind that drives the body, and although the Babylonian empire is gone, the mind-set never went away, neither did the practices of those days but each system of man was incorporated into the next, becoming more and more controlling and brutal.  But, Jesus does have a kingdom, which he told us was at hand during his ministry,  which has now come without observation, and which,  some day, will smite the feet of man's world systems and bring them down--with the mind of Christ.



44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

--Daniel 2

[Molly]

To me Daniel was a Jew, prophesying for Jews not for the gentile world.

Daniel's book was sealed until the last days.


8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

--Daniel 12


It is unsealed for the Gentiles--



1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

--Rev 5



Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

[Dallas]

Molly, have you considered that the system that had to be destroyed was the old covenant, physical temple ritual Mosaic system?

I believe, as Paul wrote in Hebrews describing the temple saying that while it stands it is a symbol that the way to the holy place is hidden, that Rome was the last beast who destroyed the old system in order that the power and authority of it was brought down and he was raised up above it and us with him.

As Jesus said, the kingdom of heaven is neither here nor there, but it is in you... and Paul... the kingdom of heaven is peace joy and righteousness in the holy ghost.

Jesus never taught of a physical kingdom for us to ascend... but that kingdom would come down...

Revelation 21:10 "And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God"

This cant be a future event for if it is then no one has been included into the cross of christ.

And we have been included because the kingdom has come because his will has been down on earth as it was predetermined in heaven. We have been given our heavenly bread for he delivered us from our tresspasses and has delivered us from the evil one, for his kingdom is of peace, joy and righteousness in Christ Jesus forever and ever.

[Nathan]

Dallas . . .AMEN BRO!!!
I fully believe that Daniel's prophetic vision that was sealed was specifically for the Jews . .the 70 weeks makes that very clear.  I believe that the seal was broken and the book was not only opened, but fulfilled by Christ through the work of the cross . . .and as far as this idol of Daniel 2 . . .that again, was not only world leaders . .but those who ruled over Israel . .it was a message "to" Israel, "about" Israel's demise.  And the 70 weeks set aside specifically for the purpose of wooing Israel back . . .ended in the book of Acts with the first martyr . . .it's where Jesus was seen "standing".  It was closing the chapter on sending the gospel solely to the Jews . . .and turning to the Gentiles . ..Paul explains this on several occasions in his ministry.

He was not called to the Jew, but to the Gentile . . .Peter . . who was not called to the Gentiles, but to the Jews, saw the closure come when the sheet was lowered and revelation came to him that the spirit no longer was just for the clean, but now, God was declaring the unclean to be clean as well.

It's not for a future event . . .I really wish we could get that which was ingrained into our minds by our wayward forefathers back out . .because our church  forefathers allowed the enemy to come into their doctrines and plant tares amongst their wheat . . .and now, the infants and toddlers in Christ can't tell the difference between wheat and tares because they've never seen a church's field that ever had just wheat in it. 

Meaning . . . the traditional church doesn't know what it's like to have only pure truth birthing from it because it's had these false teachings in it for hundreds of years.  God is simply calling out to those who would but listen, to get us back to our original state . .before all of the junk came in and perverted everything to what it is today. 

UR is not "the" truth . . it's just a strand of it.  But yet there are many who embrace "UR" while also holding on to the church's other renditions of it's image of truth.  Once the foundation is off . . .the rest of the structure is off as well.  When there is one room in the leaning house that is squared up . . .the rest of the house must either be also aligned, or all will collapse. 

If you can see UR to be true, then your foot is in the door to the kingdom . . .finish what's been started, let go of the rest of the things that the church has ingrained . . .would God ask you to give up something if he didn't have something better and greater in store for you?  Same thing here . . . just because the mind can not "see" many of the spiritual things that have been shared out, does not mean they are not real and true.  Remember what pleases God?  Faith.  Believing that what you can not see actually exists.

[Dallas]

Hey Nathan;

The two biggest things in my life that have been revealed concearning stands is;

1. The cross includes all people
2. The Kingdom of Christ has also been established and fulfilled

This has definatley settled my soul and brought rest and peace... I honestly don't know how it gets better, but I openly acknowledge that like you said... many strands... I can't wait for the next great revealing to my soul.

Peace.

[peacemaker]

Daniel a book of warning ...

"But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end...."

And John was told, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand!"

At hand as in near in time, or will be happening very soon!

Is it not more than interesting, that which Paul said, "I know a man in Christ, who, fourteen years ago, whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not, God, knoweth, such a one as this, caught away, as far as the third heaven; And I know such a man as this, whether in the body or apart from the body,  know not – but God, knoweth – How that he was caught away into paradise, and heard unspeakable things, which it is not allowable for a man to utter:" (2 Corinthians 12:2-4)

So, who was this certain man? Want to guess ... was it Paul?

Or was it John who was caught up into the third heaven, and saw the temple therein, the ark of the testimony of Christ coming down to a new earth; a new people.  A man "in Christ" wrote the Revelation of Christ fourteen years before, as Paul stated, thus, it was written before 70 A.D. Not afterward, as Paul's first letter to the Corinthians was written, approximately in 56 A.D., the second, 57 A.D. (?)

So, the Revelation (an uncovering or unveiling) was given to John by the Spirit of Christ, approximately fourteen years (plus, or minus) after the crucifixion, fourteen to Paul's (second) letter to the Corinthians, and on to the Abomination of Desolation. If, Christ was crucified in 29-30 A.D., then the destruction would have been within three generations (or, to the third and fourth).

And, who is it that was worthy to open the book, which is not allowable for a man to utter, and was not to be sealed because the time – is at hand?

Only "The Lamb is/was worthy" to open the seal of Judgment which took place. 

"Come out of her my people ... lest you share in her plagues, for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her as she herself has rendered, and repay her double for her deeds ... and she will be burned with fire. Alas, alas, you Great City, in one hour your judgment has come." (Revelation 18:4, 6, 8, 10)

Revelation the book of comfort ...

For me, or mine, I cannot use the futurist perspective in justifying the prophets (profits) of end-time scenarios that contradict the Scriptures, and which are based on the imagination of men. As the Spirit of the comforter resides within!

"for the letter brings death, but the Spirit gives life."

This is just a personal quote:   :drummer:

"No one knows the hour, if they don't look at the clock!"

peacemaker

[peacemaker]

Jesus the Lord of Glory was beaten, whipped, crucified, and stabbed with a spear.

Matthew died from a sword wound.
Mark was dragged to death by horses.
Luke was hung by the neck.
John, boiled in oil, but survived to die an unusual natural death of being buried alive.
Peter, crucified up-side-down.
James was killed with a sword, most likely, beheaded.
Bartholomew (Nathaniel) was flayed (skinned alive) to death by a whip.
Andrew, crucified on an x-shaped cross, after being whipped.
Thomas was stabbed with a spear.
Jude died from multiple arrows.
Matthias was stoned and beheaded, who replaced Judas Iscariot.
Barnabas was stoned to death.

Paul was imprisoned, tortured and beheaded in 67 A.D.

The Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel, 70 A.D.

"Christ is now here or He is nowhere presently, depending on how you separate the letters!"

Just another personal quote ... :violin:

peacemaker

[Zeek]

AMEN.  PRAISE GOD.

:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance:

[Zeek]

Mat 20:23  And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

[Zeek]

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[Molly]

"He answered, 'The crowd neither wants nor seeks knowledge, and the leaders of the crowd, in their own interests,  try to strengthen its fear and dislike of anything new and unknown.  The slavery in which mankind lives is based upon this fear.  It is even difficult to imagine all the horror of this slavery.  We do not understand what people are losing.  To understand the cause of this slavery, it is enough to see how people live,  what makes the aim of their existence, the object of their desires, the passions and aspirations of what they think, of what they talk, what they serve, and what they worship. 

People are machines.  Machines have to be blind and unconscious.  They cannot be otherwise.  And, all their actions have to correspond to their nature.  Everything 'happens.'  No one does anything.  Progress and civilization, in the real meaning of these words, can appear only as a result of conscious efforts.  They do not appear as a result of unconscious, mechanical actions.  And, what conscious effort can there be in machines?  And, if one machine is unconscious, then 100 machines are unconscious, and so are 1000 machines, or a hundred thousand, or a million.  And, the unconscious activity of a million machines must necessarily result in destruction and extermination.  It is precisely in unconscious, involuntary manifestations, that all evil lies.  You do not understand yet, and cannot imagine, all the results of this evil, but the time will come when you will understand.'

--In search of the miraculous






23And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

24When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

--Mat 27

[peacemaker]

"The tumult reached its height during those days, as the placid facade failed to conceal
the violent, noisy commotion, or disturbance of the crowd and mob within his mind."  :crywipe:

peacemaker

[Nathan]

Jesus the Lord of Glory was beaten, whipped, crucified, and stabbed with a spear.

Matthew died from a sword wound.
Mark was dragged to death by horses.
Luke was hung by the neck.
John, boiled in oil, but survived to die an unusual natural death of being buried alive.
Peter, crucified up-side-down.
James was killed with a sword, most likely, beheaded.
Bartholomew (Nathaniel) was flayed (skinned alive) to death by a whip.
Andrew, crucified on an x-shaped cross, after being whipped.
Thomas was stabbed with a spear.
Jude died from multiple arrows.
Matthias was stoned and beheaded, who replaced Judas Iscariot.
Barnabas was stoned to death.

Paul was imprisoned, tortured and beheaded in 67 A.D.

The Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel, 70 A.D.

"Christ is now here or He is nowhere presently, depending on how you separate the letters!"

Just another personal quote ... :violin:

peacemaker

John was buried alive in the end?  I hadn't heard that before.

[martincisneros]

Just like it depends on which James you're talking about in the New Testament with how some view there being 3 different James's in the New Testament, there's more than one John.  The Apostle John wasn't buried alive, but the evangelist was, who was an early disciple.  This, of course, for many, wanders into the whole "did the same author write all 4 books attributed to John and the Apocalypse?"  But to know that the Apostle John didn't die like that is enough for me.

John was buried alive in the end?  I hadn't heard that before.

As far as the Apostle John, there's always been rumors ever since Jesus said to Peter "if I want him to remain until I come, what's that to you?"  But many are quick to quote St. Paul as having said that Jesus alone has immortality.  I personally won't touch that one with a ten-foot pole.

[Molly]

"...that although the factors for engendering in their presences the sacred being impulses of faith, hope, and love are already quite degenerated in the beings of this planet, nevertheless, the factor which ought to engender that being impulse on which the whole psyche of beings of a three brain system is in general based, and which impulse exists under the name of objective conscience, is not yet atrophied in them, but remains in their presences almost in its primordial state.  Thanks to the abnormally established conditions of external ordinary being existence existing here, this factor has gradually penetrated and become embedded in that consciousness which is here called, subconscious , in consequence of which it takes no part whatever in the functioning of their ordinary consciousness. 

Well then, it was just then that I undoubtedly understood, with all the separate ruminating parts representing the whole of my eye, that if the functioning of that being factors still surviving in their common presences were to participate in the general functioning of that consciousness of theirs, in which they pass their daily, as they hearsay, waking existence, only then would it be possible to save the contemporary three brain beings here from the consequences of the properties of that organ which was intentionally implanted in their first ancestors.  My further meditations then confirmed for me that it would be possible to attain this only if their general being existence were to flow for a long time under foreseeingly corresponding conditions.  When all of the above mentioned was completely transubstantiated in me, I decided to consecrate the whole of myself from that time on to the creation here of such conditions that the functioning of the sacred consciousness still surviving in their subconscious, might gradually pass into the functioning of their ordinary consciousness.

May the blessing of our Almighty, omni-loving, common Father, uni-being, Creator, endlessness, be upon my decision.  Amen."

---Georges Gundjieff




1 Cor 13:13
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

[Nathan]

Hey Molly . . .have you ever seen "Quote-a-main"?  :laughing7:

I have a feeling this guy you quoted has been around a while . . . his words take much chewing to digest.

[peacemaker]

Jesus the Lord of Glory was beaten, whipped, crucified, and stabbed with a spear.

Matthew died from a sword wound.
Mark was dragged to death by horses.
Luke was hung by the neck.
John, boiled in oil, but survived to die an unusual natural death of being buried alive.
Peter, crucified up-side-down.
James was killed with a sword, most likely, beheaded.
Bartholomew (Nathaniel) was flayed (skinned alive) to death by a whip.
Andrew, crucified on an x-shaped cross, after being whipped.
Thomas was stabbed with a spear.
Jude died from multiple arrows.
Matthias was stoned and beheaded, who replaced Judas Iscariot.
Barnabas was stoned to death.

Paul was imprisoned, tortured and beheaded in 67 A.D.

The Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel, 70 A.D.

"Christ is now here or He is nowhere presently, depending on how you separate the letters!"

Just another personal quote ... :violin:

peacemaker

John was buried alive in the end?  I hadn't heard that before.

Some say John did not die, rather, he ascended like Elijah. Augustine briefly records a legend of tradition that - when John was buried, "the ground heaved" as if the Apostle were still breathing.

Interesting, how Peter made an unusual request, himself!

peacemaker

[peacemaker]

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

:boyheart:

It is, and so be it!