The Christian Bible..."Hard Sayings", Things That Make You Say "Hmmmmm"

[Nathan]

Yes, yes YES!!  They were blind all right, but to the wrong thing.  They were blind to the Truth Christ was trying to convey.  The fact that their minds convinced them of seeing, actually caused them to be blind . . .that's what the mind does . . .it veils the truth . . .that's hows come I pound on it so much . .it's destructive in nature, not something to trifle with as it is an addiciton in and of itself.  It's a leach.  It's very life is to attach itself to any living form of Christ and suck the life out of it until all that's left is the shell of what it once was.

"You search the Scriptures because in them YOU THINK . .  ."  Truth does not come by way of reason, only by way of revelation from the Father through relationship with the Son.  Flowery words?  Perhaps . .but nectar nonetheless.

[Taffy]

Hence they were DEAD to HIM, For to be carnally MINDED , is DEATH.

The carnal MIND is enmity ( Hatred) ..

[Nathan]

Hence they were DEAD to HIM, For to be carnally MINDED , is DEATH.

The carnal MIND is enmity ( Hatred) ..

BINGO!!

(oh, you guys use that slang in England?  It means DEAD ON BRO . .or ABSOLUTELY . . .it's also a card and chip game the Catholics play in the beer tent.) :laughing7:

[Doc]

I believe the UK phraseology would be "spot-on!"  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

THERE'S A LOT OF GOOOOOD THINGS HERE...I HOPE YOU'LL REALLY READ THIS AND MEDITATE UPON IT....THEN COMMENTS/REVELATIONS?

John 12:37-40   Yet while He had done so many signs in front of them, they weren't believing in Him, so that the word of the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled, when he said, "Master, who has believed the news that was heard from us;  and to whom has the arm of the Master been revealed?" [Isa. 53:1],  For this reason, they couldn't believe, because Isaiah said again,  "He has blinded their eyes, and calloused their hearts;  so they shall not notice with their eyes, and comprehend with their hearts, and turn, so I will heal them" [Isa. 6:10]

John 12:46-48  I have come into the world as a Light, so that whoever is believing in Me, shall not stay in darkness,  Now whoever hears My Declarations and doesn't maintain them, I'm not judging him,  for I didn't come to judge the world, but to save the world [from Destruction].  Whoever is rejecting Me and doesn't accept My Declarations, has something that is going to judge him;  the Word that I spoke; that will judge him on the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age].

Eyes blinded...Yesu not come to judge...however,

John 12:31 states;   judgment is now upon this world [John 3:19, 9:39]; the chief of this world will now be thrown out [John 16:7-11].

and this beautiful verse...not crucifixion alone, but resurrection?  As far as I know, I've never seen this translated this way before...and the TCB is supposedly the most literal/accurate to the Koine Greek.........

John 12:32  Now when I am elevated out of the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Praise God for His Word!  God's blessing, James.

[jabcat]

Read this this morning...

"Stop letting your hearts be disturbed!  You must be continually believing God, and be continually believing in Me!  In My Father's house there are places for many to stay.  Otherwise, I definitely wouldn't have told you that I am going away to make a place ready for you, would I?  Now if I go away and make a place ready for you, I'm going to come again, and will take you along with Myself;  so that where I am, you shall be also.  John 14:1-3, The Christian Bible

Related to end time events ("doomsday")?  Orthodox Heaven?  Connected to 70 AD since Jesus' earthly ministry was to the Jews and He was speaking to His disciples?

[WhiteWings]

Even the website is a learning point...
http://christianbiblesociety.org/gdisc.shtml

Moreover, in 1611 the KJV translators of the Bible followed the syntax of Classical Greek.  However, we now know that the language of the New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek, because it is Koine Greek.  Plus, make no mistake – this makes a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated.

So, for over a century now, scholars have known that the original New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible wasn't written in the Classical Greek of Aristotle like most of the other ancient Greek literature. There is absolutely no controversy about this any longer – scholars are in universal agreement that the original New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible was written in everyday Koine Greek, the common language used by the people throughout the Roman Empire during the First Century A.D. 

That would mean classical Greek can't be used to verify words like aion aionios.


Another great page to read: What exactly is the name of Father/Son/Holy Spirit?
http://christianbiblesociety.org/names.shtml

[WhiteWings]

John 6:43,44;  ...You must not be grumbling with one another!  No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him;  and I will raise him up on the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age].  It has been written in the Prophets, "and they will all be taught by God    [Isa. 54:13].

I would like some help with understanding the above quote from your secon post jabcat.

If you are not drawn in this lifetime you are "lost" (I know... not the correct wording)?
Are the "lost" the ones that are  raised on "the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age]."?
Is the Last Day:
- the last day of the last age. So at the very very end of ages. -> 24 hours
- just another name for the Last Age -> could 1000's of years

I guess the "lost" get some corrective punishment/teaching.
If a day is just a day then the correctional phase is very short of duration.

Comments?

[jabcat]

I do want others to comment, but this strikes a chord with me...I don't believe everyone at death just sort of sweetly float heavenward and all is instantly forgiven like some are saying.  I could be wrong, but I just don't see that fitting with scripture.  Could that be our carnal mind's wishful thinking and creating our own doctrine that feels good :dontknow:?  If I'm wrong, great, but I don't see that fitting the whole context of scripture right now.  My  :2c:.

[Doc]

Even the website is a learning point...
http://christianbiblesociety.org/gdisc.shtml

Moreover, in 1611 the KJV translators of the Bible followed the syntax of Classical Greek.  However, we now know that the language of the New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek, because it is Koine Greek.  Plus, make no mistake – this makes a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated.

So, for over a century now, scholars have known that the original New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible wasn't written in the Classical Greek of Aristotle like most of the other ancient Greek literature. There is absolutely no controversy about this any longer – scholars are in universal agreement that the original New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible was written in everyday Koine Greek, the common language used by the people throughout the Roman Empire during the First Century A.D. 

That would mean classical Greek can't be used to verify words like aion aionios.


Another great page to read: What exactly is the name of Father/Son/Holy Spirit?
http://christianbiblesociety.org/names.shtml

I looked at the second article. Interesting and informative, although they took it to some unnecessarily legalistic conclusions in places.

At the end of the day, I think it makes more difference to "Yesu" (and Father) whether or not we have a relationship with Him than how we pronounce his name. I do think our traditional English pronunciation does kinda suck though...  :mblush:

[jabcat]

I looked at the second article. Interesting and informative, although they took it to some unnecessarily legalistic conclusions in places.

At the end of the day, I think it makes more difference to "Yesu" (and Father) whether or not we have a relationship with Him than how we pronounce his name.

I agree with that...I also personally feel the following, explained in this excerpt from a post I made last night on another thread..

"Although I feel the same way (pertaining to the other thread), I also often slip and use words I really don't believe in.  In the Forward of The Christian Bible, there's a list of about 100 words that aren't used in the translation....does this save or lose mine or anyone else's soul, or should it be a source of conflict or condemnation?  I think not!   However, I personally find it very interesting to know more the accurate origins of the words/terms, and especially their meanings...some of it for me has to do with being called out of churchianity and my desire to bring with me as little of it as possible."

[WhiteWings]

Doc,

although they took it to some unnecessarily legalistic conclusions in places.

I had a hard time understanding tehir conclusion and just assumed it was my lack of knowledge.
The article is not by one of the translators.

Doc and jabcat,

At the end of the day, I think it makes more difference to "Yesu" (and Father) whether or not we have a relationship with Him than how we pronounce his name.

I have mixed feelings about that. Firstly names often have a deeper meaning that goes lost in sloppy translation.
Another thing is the levels in the Bible. Some student with decent Greek knowledge can translate the NT.
At least it looks nice. Word for word things seem correct. The verse looks logical. Things get a little harder if the verses are rephrased in another part of the Bible. Then the translation should be in such a way the verses still means the same. Everything crossreferences to something else. A complex web. When 'talking' with someone of a forum the facial expressions, hand gestures and tone of the voice are missing. That's even a minus in the jokes section. It adds depth to the joke. Somehow the Bible uses the words in such a way there is body language of God in it. (also the case with the good human writers) But that body laguage is the first the vanishes when the translation fails to lock the 'feeling' of words.
Maybe Jesus, Yesu, Yesuha (lets call him Freddy...) isn't the best example of this but if you start with a simple name where does it end? It quickly turns into doctrine of men. Look at the KJV. A poetic masterpiece (for its time) As UR is concerned it only/mainly translated 2 words the wrong way. Most of the time the translation looks good within the verse. So what's the fuss about? The other 99.9% is translated correctly. It's like a legal document. One wrongly placed comma can make a huge difference. For a good example look at the "Women Speakers" article.

[WhiteWings]

I do want others to comment, but this strikes a chord with me...I don't believe everyone at death just sort of sweetly float heavenward and all is instantly forgiven like some are saying.  I could be wrong, but I just don't see that fitting with scripture.  Could that be our carnal mind's wishful thinking and creating our own doctrine that feels good :dontknow:?  If I'm wrong, great, but I don't see that fitting the whole context of scripture right now.  My  :2c:.

Can't say I disagree with your conclusion.
Does that automatically mean that "The Last Day" is just another name for "Last Age"
I wrote 'name' because they are written with caps. A bit like lord/Lord. son/Son

[jabcat]

I'll look at the women's speaker thing again...for an example of what you're talking about, look at my sentence in my post to Doc; "I personally feel this way"....  I was really trying to say I basically agreed with Doc, but then also trying to say, "but I also/further feel the way I'm about to show in the excerpt that follows...the words are also very important to me"....but what I realize I actually wrote was "I personally feel this way", which in retrospect, sounds like I'm not bringing anything further to the discussion as to how I feel about the use of words...maybe re-read the quotation part of my post now in the framework of words and how they're used are extremely important to me...I bet the failure to communicate what we really mean happens thousands/millions of times a day, especially on discussion boards.

ah....communication.

I went back and modified my previous post we're addressing, and I think now it makes more sense.

[jabcat]

I do want others to comment, but this strikes a chord with me...I don't believe everyone at death just sort of sweetly float heavenward and all is instantly forgiven like some are saying.  I could be wrong, but I just don't see that fitting with scripture.  Could that be our carnal mind's wishful thinking and creating our own doctrine that feels good :dontknow:?  If I'm wrong, great, but I don't see that fitting the whole context of scripture right now.  My  :2c:.

Can't say I disagree with your conclusion.
Does that automatically mean that "The Last Day" is just another name for "Last Age"
I wrote 'name' because they are written with caps. A bit like lord/Lord. son/Son

I tend to think so, but I may be missing something...for one thing, I've read there are yet to be many ages  :dontknow:.  I WONDER...if the CB translators filtered this s/w through their lense and interpreted it as last as opposed to THE Age or Age of Ages, which I've read is the greatest age, if not necessarily the last.  I'm going to check the greek words on that and get back on this.

[jabcat]

it looks like the greek actually is "Last Day"...OK, so Bible scholars, what does that mean?  I think orthodoxy says it's "resurrection, judgment day, then heaven or hell..that's it...the "last day"......

[WhiteWings]

I'll look at the women's speaker thing again...for an example of what you're talking about, look at my sentence in my post to Doc; "I personally feel this way"....  I was really trying to say I basically agreed with Doc, but then also trying to say, "but I also/further feel the way I'm about to show in the excerpt that follows...the words are also very important to me"....but what I realize I actually wrote was "I personally feel this way", which in retrospect, sounds like I'm not bringing anything further to the discussion as to how I feel about the use of words...maybe re-read the quotation part of my post now in the framework of words and how they're used are extremely important to me...I bet the failure to communicate what we really mean happens thousands/millions of times a day, especially on discussion boards.

ah....communication.

I went back and modified my post...makes more sense.

The communication failure seems to be on my side. Likely due to the longwinded answer that looks like I'm debunking your claim. So the short answer:

I agree with you and Doc that we won't be doomed because of wrong spelling.
But I also added that, IMO, the translators must take great care not to use this "doesn't really matter" logic to often because it can wreck the whole message.

[jabcat]

I agree, and I think it extremely matters...for instance, I would tend to read "The Message" only as "light" reading, not expecting to really get the meat...in that regard, and along with what you're saying, and also, something that I remember Martin saying once...EVERY word (original) came out of the mouth of God, so it carries substance we can't even imagine.  My  :2c:.

[WhiteWings]

it looks like the greek actually is "Last Day"...OK, so Bible scholars, what does that mean?  I think orthodoxy says it's "resurrection, judgment day, then heaven or hell..that's it...the "last day"......

I don't know if I can apply this kind of logic to Greek but:

- In the day of Jesus means more like the generation of Jesus.
- The days of Abraham doesn't mean he lived only a few days or the verse is going to state his lifespan in days instead of years.
- In the days of the dinosaur means the whole period that species walked the earth.

So perhaps "The Day" is just as strechable as the Hebrew yom or the Greek aion/age ?

[Taffy]

it looks like the greek actually is "Last Day"...OK, so Bible scholars, what does that mean?  I think orthodoxy says it's "resurrection, judgment day, then heaven or hell..that's it...the "last day"......

Seven days In a week, the last day refers to the Eigth day, or New Beginnings, which if ya Think, Is the FIRST day of the following week as well, The first Day, The Third day , The Sabbath Day(7) , The Eighth day and The Last\Great day\  AND To Day are synoumous...THEY ARE A ***********************WHO******************************* :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: FIRST THE SHADOW SHOWN IN THE old..THEN..WELL YOU KNOW WHAT COMES NEXT BY NOW.

Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Note the Feasts of the LORD in Levicticus

Lev 23:36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it [is] a solemn assembly; [and] ye shall do no servile work [therein]. 


2Ch 29:17 Now they began on the first [day] of the first month to sanctify, and on the eighth day of the month came they to the porch of the LORD: so they sanctified the house of the LORD in eight days; and in the sixteenth day of the first month they made an end.

Neh 8:18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day [was] a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.


This is that LAST DAY MENTIONED IN THE NEW

t 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so [Abraham] begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac [begat] Jacob; and Jacob [begat] the twelve patriarchs. 

Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

Christ is this very LAST DAY( eighth day as is HE is the First Day , TO DAY, THE Third day, The Seventh day, The Eight DAY, AND THE LAST DAY, also known as the Great DAY...

Jhn 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.


Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Are we not raised with him on that Very DAY, Tis Likened to the THIRD DAY,which ***is***the First day which these things BE DONE

Lev 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.



Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day [shall be] a sabbath, and on the eighth day [shall be] a sabbath.

The First day\THIRD DAY....Risen of the **Son***?

r 16:2 And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done


If we Consider the DAY being more of a WHO, oppossed to a time span , striving to fit in in just when such event will unfold, and begin to see this as NOW...

Luk 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

A day is Likened to a 1000yrs...This day TOO, is Christ... the scripture testify to HIM, he being the context of all of it.

we move from generation to generation ,( BOTH ages TESTIFYING TO HIM)the AGE of Darkness, as ONE under LAW,likened also to a Child or Babe, moving from DEATH to LIFE,as a SON or heir, living in the LIGHT of DAY in HIM who is LIFE.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 
:icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

Is that Last Day the start of the kingdom of Father or Son?
Personally I think Sons kingdom.

[Taffy]

Is that Last Day the start of the kingdom of Father or Son?
Personally I think Sons kingdom.

Yes ww..spot on :icon_flower:
but here lays another contented issue...

some are waiting for a Future Kingdom ,while some of us SEE it within US..as In, TO DAY IS THE SALVATION of your souls. :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

And that kingdom ends when you die?
Then you sorta step out of the Sons kingdom in that of Father?
If so there are 2 kingdoms simultainiously?

[Taffy]

And that kingdom ends when you die?
Then you sorta step out of the Sons kingdom in that of Father?
If so there are 2 kingdoms simultainiously?

Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

The concept of Eternal Life( live of this age of the Fleshy body we dwell in) for mine ,differs to that of Immortality..Having PUT ON Christ, the Corruptible has NOW put on Incorruption..if ya will, awaiting a time for a spirit Body

The Kingdom is a realm..the Realm( reign) is over DEATH itself...for me Death was deafeted at the Cross ..


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Therefore we too for those who believe , reign as Kings and Priest with him OVER DEATH....

two Kingdoms..mm, realms over two deaths?...cant quite see that bud.. :icon_flower:maybe others have somut to add there :icon_flower:

[CHB]

Christ is this very LAST DAY( eighth day as is HE is the First Day , TO DAY, THE Third day, The Seventh day, The Eight DAY, AND THE LAST DAY, also known as the Great DAY...

Something came to mind while reading this.

(Rev.1:11) I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.  (Rev. 1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

(Isaiah 41:4) Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and the last; I am he.

I was thinking, does this mean Christ will come in the eighth day?  Most look for Christ in the sixth day, which is in this generation. If it is in the eighth day, that would mean two thousand more years, that is if one believes in the return of Christ?

CHB