Eternal Torture: purpose beyond "mistranslation"?

[sven]

a few weeks ago, i came across the translation of the famous German Pietist and Universalist Johann Albrecht Bengel and anyway he translated eternal pain! in Matthew 25 and all occurances of both hades and gehenna with hell.

i think some of the Pietists, maybe Bengel himself said,
who doesn't know universalism (is the truth) is an ox, but who teaches it, is an jackass

[jabcat]

i think some of the Pietists, maybe Bengel himself said,
who doesn't know universalism (is the truth) is an ox, but who teaches it, is an jackass

:pointlaugh: :LH:

Boy do I get this.  I've been fearfully expecting repercussions from sharing the "Hell Test" on the TM home page with a pastor this week.  BUT...although I certainly understand the sentiment in your post and can relate to it, I keep thinking of this..we know what I Tim. 2:4 says (Jesus, savior of all men)...but 2:5 says "charge these things and teach"...so I'm thinking here...maybe there were many through history that believed it but didn't "charge and teach" it for a variety of reasons...I'm thinking we are supposed to (according to the Lord's leading, not arguing, etc.) and just expect "the world to hate you, they hated Me first" and to be "thrown out of their synagogues"...maybe that's often what goes with the truth, and we're not to "hide our candle under a bushel" just because of the potential consequences...easier said than done, I'm personally a chicken...I'm just sayin'  :happygrin:.....

God's blessing, Js.

[alihaymeg]

Good stuff  :thumbsup:

[ScarletWren]

Keep us informed on what transpires with that pastor, Jabcat, if it doesn't break any confidences.  Would be interested to see what he says.

[jabcat]

I will.  It's the pastor of the very large Baptist church to which I used to belong.  I already shared with him once, and he respectfully said "I disagree with most, if not all of it".  I have noticed though that he's backed off his "hell" stuff some, and I just seem to have a burden for him, like God has laid him on my heart...like there's something there, he is on the verge of seeing some things.  We'll see, and I'll let you know.  Thanks.

[CHB]

Boy do I get this.  I've been fearfully expecting repercussions from sharing the "Hell Test" on the TM home page with a pastor this
week.  BUT...although I certainly understand the sentiment in your post and can relate to it, I keep thinking of this..we know what I Tim. 2:4 says (Jesus, savior of all men)...but 2:5 says "charge these things and teach"...so I'm thinking here...maybe there were many through history that believed it but didn't "charge and teach" it for a variety of reasons...I'm thinking we are supposed to (according to the Lord's leading, not arguing, etc.) and just expect "the world to hate you, they hated Me first" and to be "thrown out of their synagogues"...maybe that's often what goes with the truth, and we're not to "hide our candle under a bushel" just because of the potential consequences...easier said than done, I'm personally a chicken...I'm just sayin'  .....

There you go...:thumbsup:..I believe this also.  :teaching: :shout:

Paul was imprisoned a lot and he didn't get to preach like he said he should (Eph. 6:19-20) (Col. 4:4).

(Col. 4:17) And say to Archippus, take heed to the ministry which thou hast received in the Lord, that thou fulfil it.

Would not God use those who believe in the salvation of all to teach it to others? How can those who don't believe in the salvation of all know any thing about it, if no one ever mentions it?

Paul said, " (Rom. 10:14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not bwlieved? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?  and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Is it our responsibility to teach the good news/gospel to others?  Are we laying down on the job, so to speak? I have wondered why there aren't more out there teaching the salvation of all any way they can? When Jesus gave out the talents and gave some one, five, and ten, talents and some increased their talents and some didn't even use theirs and hid it. Is this what we are doing, hiding our talents?

Just some questions that were running through my mind while reading jabcats post.

CHB

[jabcat]

When Jesus gave out the talents and gave some one, five, and ten, talents and some increased their talents and some didn't even use theirs and hid it. Is this what we are doing, hiding our talents?
CHB

Me, a million times  :thumbdown:....

[ScarletWren]

I went to a Grace Bible Church for awhile back in Ohio when I was searching for truths that I didn't seem to find in the Church of Christ.  I really connected with the pastor and his wife and they seemed pretty much in line with what my thoughts were at the time.  However I soon found out that he was a dispensationalist.  He gave me some material to read and it was interesting but it just didn't strike a chord within me.  It was about a year later I came upon UR, but I also had been going to several other churches, but didn't find anything there either.  He has emailed me with this and that article since I've moved here and I finally fessed up and told him I believed in UR.  I imagined he would express great concerns about me (He is a calvinist, I realize some UR'ers are also dispensationalists) and my new opinions.  I was quite delighted when he quickly replied back that it didn't upset him and that he had a close ministerial friend who believed in UR, and he didn't hold that as something to exclude fellowship over and hoped that him believing in ET wouldn't cause me to not fellowship with him, lol.  I was taken aback a bit since so many Christians have this knee jerk hostile reaction to UR.

Anyway, it would be great if your influence on your pastor friend would result in some recognition, even though it is God's work, to be used as an instrument is fulfilling, no matter how humble the role.

Peace.

[NinjaWizards777]

i still havent told anyone that ive been leaning towards the idea...idk why its so terrible to people. I think more so because they dont want to take verses diffrently than they had always thought or think that possibly everything in the bible hasnt been translated perfectly according to its original context. I dont really know.

[jabcat]

When my wife shared with her mother, she became tearful and said "are you telling me all the things I've been taught all my life are wrong"?  I think sometimes we'd rather be wrong and comfortable, than be "right" and faced with change.

[jabcat]

I went to a Grace Bible Church for awhile back in Ohio when I was searching for truths that I didn't seem to find in the Church of Christ.  I really connected with the pastor and his wife and they seemed pretty much in line with what my thoughts were at the time.  However I soon found out that he was a dispensationalist.  He gave me some material to read and it was interesting but it just didn't strike a chord within me.  It was about a year later I came upon UR, but I also had been going to several other churches, but didn't find anything there either.  He has emailed me with this and that article since I've moved here and I finally fessed up and told him I believed in UR.  I imagined he would express great concerns about me (He is a calvinist, I realize some UR'ers are also dispensationalists) and my new opinions.  I was quite delighted when he quickly replied back that it didn't upset him and that he had a close ministerial friend who believed in UR, and he didn't hold that as something to exclude fellowship over and hoped that him believing in ET wouldn't cause me to not fellowship with him, lol.  I was taken aback a bit since so many Christians have this knee jerk hostile reaction to UR.

Anyway, it would be great if your influence on your pastor friend would result in some recognition, even though it is God's work, to be used as an instrument is fulfilling, no matter how humble the role.

Peace.

That's exciting and encouraging!  I have a burden for the guy.  He seems to love the Lord, worship Him, is tenderhearted, concerned, tearful at times when preaching.  He's been sick now for about 6 weeks, unable to find what's exactly wrong/how to fix it.  I don't know that it's related, but I do believe that God brought me to a point of brokenness before showing me UR.  I just have him on my heart.  Please pray for him everyone...there's an increasing burden there...

[WhiteWings]

When my wife shared with her mother, she became tearful and said "are you telling me all the things I've been taught all my life are wrong"?  I think sometimes we'd rather be wrong and comfortable, than be "right" and faced with change.

But in this case the new teaching is better than the old one.
It adds to the salvation she allready had.
In the new variation her friends and family will be there too.

[jabcat]

I agree.  So I imagine the reasons we hang onto our old beliefs are multiple..blindness, pride, fear, discomfort, stubbornness to name a few.

[WhiteWings]

I think you forgot the most common one: Misguided.

Why would someone doubts a scholar that has the Bible as a proffesion?
Not all have the time and/or brains to really study the Bible.
If I look at the time of my parents. Most families where poor. Education was low because kids started full time jobs at the age of 13 or so. And before that they often helped out a little after school.
So the only thing was the Sunday sermon and Bible study at school.
The older generation of your mother was also missing many study resources.
Or at least they where far harder to come by.
In the twenties/thirties. How many Bible stores in a town? How many editions?
Today I goto amazon.com and find more Bible related stuff than I can count.
Internet improved things greatly too. Without internet personally I wouldn't be beyond the level how to spell "Bible"

[jabcat]

yeah, you're right, and I'd personally link misguided and blinded together...

[WhiteWings]

yeah, you're right, and I'd personally link misguided and blinded together...

Me too, until I came on this forum...
Isn't misguided an act of man (false teachings/understanding) and blinded an act of God (not drawn yet)?

[jabcat]

yeah, I see your point  :thumbsup: