Lost Sheep, Israel, Context of Jesus' Earthly Ministry

[jabcat]

TOPIC SPLIT FROM 'NO ETERNAL HEAVEN, THEN NO ETERNAL HELL' PER REQUEST DUE TO "BEING OFF TOPIC".....

I agree with that Sarah, we don't have any power apart from God.  Do you think it's God then doing what needs to be done, even though the people themselves never knew Him?  That's what it looks like...then those folks are cast away...hmmm.

One thing I thought of after my last post is, I have a point of reference that I believe most if not all of Jesus' earthly ministry was directed at and for the Jewish nation ["I came not except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel"].  Wonder how that fits into this whole situation? 

[ScarletWren]

Hi Jabcat,

So who do  you feel Jesus meant when he said the "lost sheep of the House of Israel?"  Just the Jews who were living in Israel at that time?  It didn't include any (well very few anyway) of the 'lost' tribes who were assimilated among the other nations when the northern part of Israel were conquered and taken captive by Assyria.  Steven Jones did a fascinating paper on tracing many of those captives into surprising countries of the world.  I can't testify to the veracity of his studies but it certainly was interesting.  There are probably descendants of them in about every country in the world.  Do you not consider them to be included in the lost sheep of Israel?  I'm not saying which would be right.  Just wondered if you considered this?  Couldn't these people be part of who the prodigal son is?  Also Paul spoke of spiritual Israel.  And there are many of that house presently 'lost.' 

Peace


 

[Molly]

Hi Jabcat,

So who do  you feel Jesus meant when he said the "lost sheep of the House of Israel?"  Just the Jews who were living in Israel at that time?  It didn't include any (well very few anyway) of the 'lost' tribes who were assimilated among the other nations when the northern part of Israel were conquered and taken captive by Assyria.  Steven Jones did a fascinating paper on tracing many of those captives into surprising countries of the world.  I can't testify to the veracity of his studies but it certainly was interesting.  There are probably descendants of them in about every country in the world.  Do you not consider them to be included in the lost sheep of Israel?  I'm not saying which would be right.  Just wondered if you considered this?  Couldn't these people be part of who the prodigal son is?  Also Paul spoke of spiritual Israel.  And there are many of that house presently 'lost.' 

Peace


 

I agree and find that fascinating, too.  Those lost tribes never returned to Israel--so they really were lost.  And, they were Hebrews, not "Jews."    The tribe of Judah (and Benjamin which stayed with Judah) and some Levites were taken into captivity later, and many of them returned to Judah.   But the ten tribes of Israel were lost.

Many forget that the blessing was split between Joseph and Judah--Judah was given the sceptre of rulership, but Joseph--the lost tribe-- was given the other blessings.


"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his" (vs. 10)


22"Joseph is a fruitful vine, a fruitful vine near a spring, whose branches climb over a wall. 23With bitterness archers attacked him; they shot at him with hostility. 24But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed supple, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel, 25because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb. 26Your father's blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient mountains, than the bounty of the age-old hills. Let all these rest on the head of Joseph, on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

--



The blessing of Abraham is passed down through Joseph's sons---



13And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near unto him.

14And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

15And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

16The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

17And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

20And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

--48

[jabcat]

"Quick" answer SW without thinking a lot more about it than I already have...I'm not sure of all the details of who exactly that is/was, but, it seems to me He talked to the Jews of His Kingdom prior to His crucifixion and resurrection, which means prior to the Good News going to the Gentiles through Paul...who's message to us is of reconciliation, grace, faith, the free gift of God...not the Jewish nation's accept/reject Him as their Messiah...maybe the "thousand year reign" enters into this too somewhere (sheep/goats, depart workers of iniquity) including when "all Israel shall be saved". 

I certainly don't have all the details worked out, but I DO think we often take words Jesus spoke to the Jewish nation and try to cram them into an exact fit of context for us, the Gentiles, now benefiting from His grafting us in through His death and blood of the cross...we Gentiles, who were never given the Law...again, I certainly don't have it all figured out, but I think we mix it all up sometimes...

Keeping sharing, I'd like to understand more about this...God's blessing, James.

[Molly]

"Quick" answer SW without thinking a lot more about it than I already have...I'm not sure of all the details of who exactly that is/was, but, it seems to me He talked to the Jews of His Kingdom prior to His crucifixion and resurrection, which means prior to the Good News going to the Gentiles through Paul...who's message to us is of reconciliation, grace, faith, the free gift of God...not the Jewish nation's accept/reject Him as their Messiah...maybe the "thousand year reign" enters into this too somewhere (sheep/goats, depart workers of iniquity) including when "all Israel shall be saved". 

I certainly don't have all the details worked out, but I DO think we often take words Jesus spoke to the Jewish nation and try to cram them into an exact fit of context for us, the Gentiles, now benefiting from His grafting us in through His death and blood of the cross...we Gentiles, who were never given the Law...again, I certainly don't have it all figured out, but I think we mix it all up sometimes...

Keeping sharing, I'd like to understand more about this...God's blessing, James.

The gentiles were not given the law but, before the law, the blessing and  the promise was given to Abraham--a gentile--to be father of many nations [gentiles].

Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

[ScarletWren]

Good points, Molly.

I don't have all the information in my mind right now Jabcat.  It's been a long time since I read that paper by S. Jones.  I just think tho that part of what Jesus said was for the remainder of the 'House of Israel' but since He knew that they MUST reject Him for the larger picture and redemption of the WORLD, that those words were meant for all, else what real use would it have been for the Holy Spirit to cause the apostles to remember ALL that Jesus had said while He walked the earth as a man?  And like Molly said, the promises were given first to Abraham and he was a gentile. 

I don't have all the answers on this.  Just this dispensationalist stuff sounded interesting for awhile but I couldn't stay with it.  That definitely doesn't mean there isn't more to it than I credit it with, just like the spiritual/natural issues.  Either not my time to see it or something is missing in the way I interpreted what I've read about it, which boils down to about the same thing I guess, lol.  Molly seems to have a better handle on this than I do.

I do seem to recall that Jones said that some of the epistles were addressed to these 'lost' tribes and the Hebrews--NOT the Jews. 

Here is a link to something he's written on this though I don't think it's what I initially read years ago.  His site has changed somewhat.  I don't agree with everything Jones' writes, (surprise surprise, lol, duh) but he is interesting.  He has a great study on barley in the Bible which he says symbolizes the overcomers.  Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/coldfusion/booklet.cfm?PID=97

Hope it works

[ScarletWren]

Ok,

I was skimming through the article I gave you the link for and found the original one I mentioned.  This is very long...you can decide if it seems of interest to you.

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/second_coming/index.cfm

[jabcat]

I believe I remember the context of the verse where Jesus said He came not except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  There was a woman (not a Jew) wanting something of Him, and He didn't respond to her as she requested, then stated that verse  :dontknow:...sounds to me as if He was saying "this isn't why I'm here [right now], not who I came for [right now]".

There are some that teach that pretty much ALL of what Jesus said during His earthly ministry was addressed to the Jews, and that most of it came about by 70 AD...I'm no expert on it, I do wonder though, and think at the very least, the context of it is important.  An example of that is the very elaborate description by J. Preston Eby of Lazarus and the rich man...all the references to Israel, their inherited position of privilege, the color purple (royalty/priesthood), the dogs licking sores (the gentile nations 'round about), the allusion to the 12 tribes...I mean it's very elaborate, and according to some, NOT addressing heaven and hell as orthodoxy would contend...but painting a picture of Israel, their upcoming loss of privilege, etc. which occurred and culminated in 70 AD with the destruction of Jeruselam, the temple, making it impossible to follow the law to the letter...thus destroying temple worship.  Again, I sure don't have it all figured out, but I believe there's a LOT there that 'we' miss and mix up all together when there's really a vital context to it...

I'm calling out Nathan right here...NATHAN, you got anything here?

Js.

I'm getting ready to check out the link right now..thanks!

[Molly]

I do seem to recall that Jones said that some of the epistles were addressed to these 'lost' tribes and the Hebrews--NOT the Jews.

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

--James 1

[jabcat]

Wasn't Peter's ministry basically to the Jews, and Paul's and others (James?) more to the Gentiles/those scattered abroad?  Peter talked of law, works, circumcision etc., Paul and others of grace, mercy, the free gift, being grafted in, etc?  There's a nifty chart on this I've been looking for...if I find it I'll post it...

jabcat, aka, James The Lesser  :laughing7:

[Molly]

It's all very mysterious. :laughing7:


1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

--1 Peter 1

[jabcat]

It's all very mysterious. :laughing7:
[

What do you mean?  Are you poking at me by saying it's obvious and I've got my shades on :cool:, or saying it really is hard to separate out?  It could either one for all I know...

[Molly]

It's all very mysterious. :laughing7:
[

What do you mean?  Are you poking at me by saying it's obvious and I've got my shades on :cool:, or saying it really is hard to separate out?  It could either one for all I know...

I'm saying it's mysterious.  We start with Abraham the Gentile, then move to the Hebrews who are given the law then to the Jews (Juhudites) who are given Jesus then back to the Gentiles who become the inheritors of the orignal promise to the gentile Abraham.

But everyone seems to think the Gentiles and the Hebrews are Jews.  And the Jews, who reject the leader of their tribe, the Lion of Judah, are the only ones who call themselves 'Jews.'

God is a jokester, yes?

[jabcat]

Ooh, holy smokes (pun intended).  Good, I'm glad that's what you're saying, because I really do think it's hard to divide it...I think it's mostly Peter to Jews Paul to Gentiles, but you know what Molly, there's very few things I'll "swear to"  :happygrin:.  Maybe Peter to Jews are these guys too (to the strangers scattered), because that would seem to fit the next verse you quote.."elect".. :dontknow:

[Zeek]

does this article help


.......

Who Comprises the "All Israel" in 11:26?

There has been much discussion about the meaning of "all Israel" in this verse. But the context shows that Paul uses 'Israel' here the same way he uses it throughout chapters 9-11, as a reference to Jacob's physical lineage. Changing here to a 'spiritual' usage to include Gentile believers (as some hold) would counter the point Paul makes.  Paul was not replacing Israel with the church.  He was not attempting to prove the supposed 'spiritual identities' of Jew and Gentile in 11:26.  Instead, he was establishing for his Gentile audience that God had not cast away Israel and that "all Israel" will be saved.

Our task, then, is to see the connection between the coming in of the fullness of the Gentiles and the salvation of not just part of Israel, but of "all Israel."

Importantly, Paul links the salvation of the Gentiles and the salvation of all Israel.  To see this connection, one must observe what Paul says in 11:26-27: "as it is written, The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is my covenant with them, When I take away their sins."  With whom is this covenant made?  To whom does the Deliverer come? Whose sins are taken away?  Paul quotes from Isaiah 27:9 and 59:20-21, and this prophetic text is closely linked to the covenant that Jeremiah speaks of the in 31:31-34; i.e., the New Covenant that God would make, not with part of Israel, but with both "the house of Israel" and "the house of Judah."  So, how does Paul's mission to the Gentiles fit in with God's fulfillment of His covenant with both houses, Israel and Judah?

Historically speaking, Christ came in the flesh to the house of Judah—the tribes of Judah and Benjamin in Judea. But where was the house of Israel? We know the answer to that. The ten tribes of the northern kingdom fell to the Assyrians in 721 BC, never to be restored to their former tribal "people of God" status in Palestine. The few who were left in Samaria intermarried with non-Jews who were imported to occupy the vacated land and cities of Israel. Out of this amalgamation grew the Samaritan people despised by Second Temple Jews.  Apparently a few managed to join with Judah either before Judah's Babylonian captivity or at the time of her return and the restoration of Jerusalem. As for the rest of the captives who were scattered among the nations, nothing is recorded about what became of them.

But this much we do know. God's casting away of Israel was not His last word concerning the ten tribes.  The prophets foretold that in the days of the Messiah, Ephraim/Israel/the ten tribes would be gathered or assembled with Judah and become one nation. God instructed Jeremiah, "Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 'For behold, the days are coming,' says the Lord, 'that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,' says the Lord" (Jeremiah 30:2-3). And again, "I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people ... He who scattered Israel will gather him, And keep him as a shepherd does his flock" (Jer. 31:1, 10).

Through Micah, God said, "I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together like sheep of the fold, like a flock in the midst of their pasture; They shall make a loud noise because of so many men" (2:12).

The clearest, most graphic prophecy of Israel's recovery and reunion with Judah is recorded in Ezekiel, chapters 36-37.  In chapter 37 Ezekiel saw a valley of dry bones. He was told that these bones were "the whole house of Israel." They depict Israel's condition in captivity saying, "Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!" (37:11). Then God spoke to them saying, "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves" (37:12-13).

Next, Ezekiel was instructed to take a stick and write on it, "'For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.' Then take another stick and write on it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.' Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand" (37:15-17). Ezekiel is told that this means that Judah and Ephraim (the ten northern tribes) will become one in God's hand. "Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone ... and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountain of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again" (37:21-22).

more here

http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php

[Molly]

Ooh, holy smokes (pun intended).  Good, I'm glad that's what you're saying, because I really do think it's hard to divide it...I think it's mostly Peter to Jews Paul to Gentiles, but you know what Molly, there's very few things I'll "swear to"  :happygrin:.  Maybe Peter to Jews are these guys too (to the strangers scattered), because that would seem to fit the next verse you quote.."elect".. :dontknow:

well, that's why it gets so mysterious. Those 'strangers scattered,' those 'elect' are Gentiles, which is by implication the definition of 'stranger' from the Old Testament.  Yet, by calling them 'scattered,' he echoes James opening line to the scattered tribes--which implies they are members of the twelve tribes.

To make any sense out of it--you have to look at God's original promise to Abraham--

Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

That's a lot of people--as many as the stars Abraham could see in the sky.  Common sense tells us that can't be the group that call themselves "Jews" today, as they are a small group and always have been.

But, then God takes us down this rabbit hole through the generations, picking and choosing, narrowing things down smaller and smaller, more set apart and more set apart... until Jesus---then  KA-BOOM the whole thing explodes.


Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

[ScarletWren]

I've been skimming through Jones' 'Who Are Israelites' and it is quite interesting.  Lots of OT scriptures and history woven through it.

One thing that I recalled is that Paul first went to the Jews in the cities he visited.  At one point, he decided enough was enough and he stated that he would no longer visit the synagogues and offer them his gospel message but he would go to the gentiles first.  This didn't preclude the Jews from hearing the message, but they would have to go to where the gentiles were to hear it.  So Paul was offering both Jews and gentiles alike Christ's gospel message.  I think the confusion comes in with the difference in the salvation message and the Kingdom message.  First of all, sinners are in need of the knowledge that God is not mad at them and that he has made provision for their reconciliation to Him.  This is not all there is though to being a child of God.  There is a kingdom to be inherited and that is what Christ was mostly preaching about to the Jews.  But it is not limited to the Jews.  If you read the first link, a much shorter read but still lengthy, it gives more in detail.  Most Christians confuse the salvation message with the kingdom message, they think salvation is all about 'going to heaven'.  I don't think I'm equipped to explain it at this time, but reading the link MAY enlighten you to some degree. 

I sure have been posting a lot for someone who said she wouldn't post much any more, sigh.

[Molly]

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

--Rom 9



Why Isaac?

Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Acts 2:39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

[jabcat]

I think the confusion comes in with the difference in the salvation message and the Kingdom message.   There is a kingdom to be inherited and that is what Christ was mostly preaching about to the Jews.  But it is not limited to the Jews.    Most Christians confuse the salvation message with the kingdom message, they think salvation is all about 'going to heaven'. 

I sure have been posting a lot for someone who said she wouldn't post much any more, sigh.

You think maybe you're supposed to be posting after all? :laughhand:

THAT (yes I'm screaming) is what I'm trying to get at...kingdom, Jews, Gentiles, salvation...when was which being talked about where and to whom ... yikes, did I really say that?

Anyway, that's the crux of all I've been wandering around in the wilderness here about...the stuff of "Jesus' earthly ministry", "context", all that...it's related to what you say above SW...now...putting all of what we've said into a concise answer I'm not so sure about...but IMO, that's where it's at  :thumbsup:.

[jabcat]

I see you've posted again Molly while I was posting...still adding to the mystery...thanks  :laughing7:.  OK, I need to sit back and read this last page or two and see where the connections are...this is something I'm quite interested in but may be dumb as a rock with it...maybe I'll learn something about what I've been saying all this time  :pointlaugh:

[Molly]

I think the confusion comes in with the difference in the salvation message and the Kingdom message.   There is a kingdom to be inherited and that is what Christ was mostly preaching about to the Jews.  But it is not limited to the Jews.    Most Christians confuse the salvation message with the kingdom message, they think salvation is all about 'going to heaven'. 

I sure have been posting a lot for someone who said she wouldn't post much any more, sigh.

You think maybe you're supposed to be posting after all? :laughhand:

THAT (yes I'm screaming) is what I'm trying to get at...kingdom, Jews, Gentiles, salvation...when was which being talked about where and to whom ... yikes, did I really say that?

Anyway, that's the crux of all I've been wandering around in the wilderness here about...the stuff of "Jesus' earthly ministry", "context", all that...it's related to what you say above SW...now...putting all of what we've said into a concise answer I'm not so sure about...but IMO, that's where it's at  :thumbsup:.

Part of the problem, also, is the word 'Jew.'  That's a relatively new word, as I understand, coined sometime in the 16 century or so.  I think Shakespeare was the first or one of the first to use it.  The twelve tribes were Hebrews, not 'Jews.'  Only one tribe, the tribe of Judah, which was also the tribe of Jesus, could qualify to call itself 'Jew.'    But we see Paul referring to himself as a 'Jew' (Juhudite), even though he also tells us he is from the tribe of Benjamin, because he lived in Judah--so that would be like me saying I'm American, which tells you nothing about my lineage.  

So Christians today get it all mixed up--thinking that Jew means Hebrew or Israelite, or somehow refers to all twelve tribes, which, technically, it does not and never has.

It's like that silly word 'anti-semite' which people are supposed to think means anti-Jew even though the arabs are semites as well.


semite

a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs; descendant of these ...

[ScarletWren]

supposed to be?   hmmmm   lol

and yeah, I hope to some day put it all together too,  :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

"supposed to be"...I know that sometimes what I want and where the Lord takes me is 2 different things...I enjoy talking with you...don't stop unless He tells you to  :thumbsup:

[Sarah]

So who do  you feel Jesus meant when he said the "lost sheep of the House of Israel?"  Just the Jews who were living in Israel at that time?

The stick of Ephraim was given TO the stick of Judah and they became one stick. Judah contains all the tribes within itself. At the time, Jesus wasn't referring to lost tribes, but lost sheep; those lost because of the ravenous wolves in the temple.

[ScarletWren]

If you read the link I posted, you might find some evidence to the contrary, Sarah.  Then again, many would just see these as physical reasonings and dismiss them.   :icon_flower:

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/COLDFUSION/booklet.cfm?PID=96

It's very interesting reading about 'Jews'.

Peace