4 "types" of universalists - which view do you have

[sven]

I think there are 4 views hold on universalism

- allmost no punishment after death, people go directly to heaven, i think this view is hold by ultra liberal christians or more philosophic christians who believe in Jesus in a way, but not really in the bible, i think this view does more harm than it helps.

- thousands of years in a literal hell fire, this is a view that was hold by some conservative German universalists, but this view is worse than annihilationism in my view

- the unbiblical mystical view, i think Sadhu Sundar Singh and the German Mystics Lorber and Greber teached something like that, a spiritual hell, not really a terrible hell with fire and torture, but a more or less uncomfortable realm of souls according to the lifetime until all are saved by changing themself in the afterlive

- a kind spiritual punishment on judgement day, no afterlive before ressurection, no immortal soul, i think this is the view hold by the concordant publishers which i consider the most biblical.

see Romans 2

But to those that are contentious, and are disobedient to the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there shall be wrath and indignation, tribulation and distress, on every soul of man that works evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek; but glory and honour and peace to every one that works good, both to Jew first and to Greek:  for there is no acceptance of persons with God. [...] For when those of the nations, which have no law, practise by nature the things of the law, these, having no law, are a law to themselves;  who shew the work of the law written  in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts accusing or else excusing themselves between themselves; in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my glad tidings, by Jesus Christ.

This reminds me on Ecclesiastes 12,13

Let us hear the end of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil.

I think this will happen before the White Throne

are there any other views on this topic, which view do you have?

[WhiteWings]

The 2nd one I don't believe.

I don't see any difference between 1 and 4
The only thing that matters is the punishment. And that's small in both cases.
Instant resurrection or after 5 trillion years, immoral or none immoral soul. That all the same.
I look at it like this. When I die it's like I fall asleep. When I sleep I'm not aware of anything.
When I open my eyes I'm in teh afterlife. Because during my sleep I wasn't aware of time I can't tell the difference between instantly and 5 trillion years.

The way I see it the 3rd view can very well fit in the 4th view (perhaps even the 1st).

[sven]

the view of Ellen G. White has something, she believed in a body resurection of all wicked, they see Jesus, every evil what they have done they will realise and regret, then they will be annihilated by fire, some suffer in the fire only a moment, others some days - everyone according to his deeds

though she believed in annihilation this view fits good to UR in my opinion, a kind of spiritual punishment in front of the White Throne (Rev. 20,13), second (literal) death by the lake of fire (Rev. 20,14), destroying the old earth (2 Peter 3,7) and then resurection from the second death at the end of the ages (1. Corinthians 15,26) and God beeing all in all (1. Corinthians 15,28).

I like the Jewish concept of Ge'Hinnom a bit, though I'm not sure if one year "hell" is enough for people like Hitler, but I can't imagine the punishment to last longer than a lifetime, If I had been an ancient Rabbi, I think I would have written something like this, refering to the jubile year: The gates of Gehenna open in the 50th year, liberty is proclaimed throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

[WhiteWings]

Hitler the measuring stick of evil... Don't forget his mad red friend.
About how long a year takes. Or how long it seems to take I should say.
Kiss your girlfriend for 5 minutes. It feels like 2 seconds.
Now hold you hand in the flame of a candle for 5 minutes. It feels like 2 years.....

But that's about pain. I think people will not repent when they are engulfed by flames.
Repenting means overthinking what you done. Drawing conclusions from it. Etc.
Sven, I don't know about you, but I can't concentrate (repent) very well when burning. :laughing7:

[sven]

don't get me wrong, i don't believe in a hell fire; maybe a literal fire, burning people to ashes but no fire which are people kept alive in.

sure one year can be long, maybe it's no matter of time but of intensity, I think people must realise the evil they have done (especially to others), this could last 50 years for Hitler or longer.

[martincisneros]

I came into UR from a Charismatic, Prosperity Theology, particularly Word of Faith perspective and though I've explored each of the perspectives mentioned in the opening post of this thread, I've been coming back to a Mark chapters 4 and 5, Luke chapter 8, etc., etc. parable of the sower perspective that all of my previous theology was built around and upon and where all of my beliefs are still rooted.  When the seed of the Word of the Kingdom comes to harvest, then it'll mean the Universal Restoration. 

Some may choose to prematurely pounce on my saying that, with Matthew 13, in saying that that's when the wicked are removed from the righteous, but that doesn't preclude future harvests beyond that.  The Matthew 13 harvest of this age being analogous to the 7th year of release in Leviticus 25 where in the 6th year God gives 3 years worth of harvest to get His people through, but yet another harvest beyond that at the end of the next world that would be a Jubilee harvest analogous to the "ages of ages" would be a spiritual harvest in the 48th year that would provide for the 48th, 49th, 50th, and 51st years which would be the transition time period for Christ delivering up the Kingdom to the Father in 1Corinthians 15:28 after all that He's thus far subdued and subjected is then reconciled back to the Father so that Father is all in all after that. 

I see the whole thing from beginning to end related to the Biblical laws of sowing and reaping and it simply being a matter of when that still larger harvest is brought into God's barns; when His house is made full.  From start to finish it's the Word that's the treasure to be protect, pruned, fertilized, and caused to bare more fruit.  It's the Word that divides between spirit and soul, according to Hebrews 4:12, and it'll be the Word that subdues all of our iniquities according to Micah 7:19 and starve all of the false gods according to Zephaniah 2:11.  All of the passages of Scripture that I've been looking at where people place the focus on punishment, suffering, and pruning, I'm finding [contextually] an outpouring of the Holy Spirit instead and all of this other stuff as having already been accounted in the Cross of Christ rather than in anybody else going to any type of Cross. 

Colossians 1:20 says that it's peace that He's made by His Blood at the Cross rather than by the suffering of any of us in Hell.  And Ephesians 2:13 says that it's the Blood of Christ that draws us near, and that's of course and always through the High Priestly ministry of Jesus and the Word going forth that He mediates in the power of His Spirit.  Transformation from cover to cover in the Bible is through the Word and not through any type of strange fire, etc.  Everything from Genesis 1:1 to 1Corinthians 15:28 and beyond is summed up in the process of Mark chapter 4.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I don't consider myself a Universalist, anymore than I consider myself exclusively a Baptist for believing in water baptism or a Pentecostal for believing in the baptism in the Spirit and all that it entails. But I fall in the category 3 you listed, which is not unbiblical, it merely depends on your understanding. Blessings.....

[jabcat]

Mixture of 3 and 4 for me...I believe our Father can sufficiently "torture" (test/try, cleanse) us by being in whatever amount of His direct presence He places us in  (Consuming Fire/Lake of Fire)...I don't believe He needs literal fire to toss us in, that He is plenty 'fire' enough  :thumbsup:.

[sheila]

   
    Hi,

   Not sure where I fit in...none of the above...

    I beleive Jesus did only what He saw His Father doing

    in heaven. So Father is opening the eyes of the blind,

   the ears of the deaf,casting out demons and unclean spirits,

   raising the dead, rebuking the thoughts of any Pharisee or

  Sadduceee spirits up there.and forgiving the worlds sins...

                       IN HEAVEN

   The only torment will be for the demonic or unclean spirits

  that will not rise to heaven...but perish in the wilderness

  of this earth.[scapegoats /sin in our flesh]

   When men die and are raised up to heaven, there will be no

  record of sin...for Jesus blotted that out..there will be

  a giving of the free gift of immortal life.Love does not keep

count of the injury   There will be  a spiritual education so that

the spirits of just men will be  made perfect.

   W hatever level of partial understanding or error

we may hold to will be cleared up, and all will have the mind of

   Christ and Father .Any reproving will be like oil on our heads.

    I think that all will receive this. Also incorruptible spiritual

   bodies which we will be clothed in.

     Also, I am an avid reader and beleiver in the Bible..and the

   WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH

     Only the Son can show you the Father..look at the son...

    and the works of him...and you shall see your Father's work

       Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath?

                                 Sheila                                         

[Doc]

I came into UR from a Charismatic, Prosperity Theology, particularly Word of Faith perspective and though I've explored each of the perspectives mentioned in the opening post of this thread, I've been coming back to a Mark chapters 4 and 5, Luke chapter 8, etc., etc. parable of the sower perspective that all of my previous theology was built around and upon and where all of my beliefs are still rooted.  When the seed of the Word of the Kingdom comes to harvest, then it'll mean the Universal Restoration. 

Some may choose to prematurely pounce on my saying that, with Matthew 13, in saying that that's when the wicked are removed from the righteous, but that doesn't preclude future harvests beyond that.  The Matthew 13 harvest of this age being analogous to the 7th year of release in Leviticus 25 where in the 6th year God gives 3 years worth of harvest to get His people through, but yet another harvest beyond that at the end of the next world that would be a Jubilee harvest analogous to the "ages of ages" would be a spiritual harvest in the 48th year that would provide for the 48th, 49th, 50th, and 51st years which would be the transition time period for Christ delivering up the Kingdom to the Father in 1Corinthians 15:28 after all that He's thus far subdued and subjected is then reconciled back to the Father so that Father is all in all after that. 

I see the whole thing from beginning to end related to the Biblical laws of sowing and reaping and it simply being a matter of when that still larger harvest is brought into God's barns; when His house is made full.  From start to finish it's the Word that's the treasure to be protect, pruned, fertilized, and caused to bare more fruit.  It's the Word that divides between spirit and soul, according to Hebrews 4:12, and it'll be the Word that subdues all of our iniquities according to Micah 7:19 and starve all of the false gods according to Zephaniah 2:11.  All of the passages of Scripture that I've been looking at where people place the focus on punishment, suffering, and pruning, I'm finding [contextually] an outpouring of the Holy Spirit instead and all of this other stuff as having already been accounted in the Cross of Christ rather than in anybody else going to any type of Cross. 

Colossians 1:20 says that it's peace that He's made by His Blood at the Cross rather than by the suffering of any of us in Hell.  And Ephesians 2:13 says that it's the Blood of Christ that draws us near, and that's of course and always through the High Priestly ministry of Jesus and the Word going forth that He mediates in the power of His Spirit.  Transformation from cover to cover in the Bible is through the Word and not through any type of strange fire, etc.  Everything from Genesis 1:1 to 1Corinthians 15:28 and beyond is summed up in the process of Mark chapter 4.

The more I go along, the more I believe that our God is LOVE and that he is GOOD. Whatever it ends up looking like, I have a feeling that it will be far better than we imagined it to be, because God is so much better than any of us could ever imagine.

I think you're right, Martin. There will certainly be the law of harvest/ sowing and reaping applied, and because we have a God who works out his perfect will for the ultimate good, it will ultimately make sense to everyone and everyone will benefit from it.

[Apocatastasis]

Well, when it comes to prophecy and eschatology, I fall into the idealist (a.k.a. spiritualist) view.  I believe that the lake of fire, as well as all other imagery in Revelation, to be a metaphor for a spiritual truth that is applicabe throughout time.

[sparrow]

DISCLAIMER: Right now this is where I am on my own path. I probably will not debate you, so I'm sorry if you are looking to debate my beliefs. These are my beliefs, feel free to take what you want and leave the rest.  :HeartThrob:

I don't fall into any of those categories. I believe when you die you do not fall asleep for a time. I believe you go onto the afterlife and are with God. Death is merely a door you walk through. I have very personal reasons for believing this. Part of the reason, (just part of the reason not the whole reason) I believe this is because of things that have transpired after witnessing deaths of loved ones.

I believe that we are being "punished" here on earth as individuals and as a whole, all of creation. All of our actions affect us, for good or bad, and our actions affect other humans, other creatures, this earth, this planet, etc. Everything that is BAD in this world can be traced back to some sort of sin. Sin being something that is outside of LOVE.  Sin isn't a set of rules. Sin is turning your back on love. From the very miniscule things we do to the things we do on a grand scale. It all affects everything in this world. The punishments are being felt NOW. For example, it's not to say that you are ill because YOU sinned... it's acknowledging that somewhere along the line, the reason for the illness is something that has occurred in this fallen state to bring about the problems that CAUSE the illness.

This is why we are all "one" because what ONE person does... trickles down and really sort of affects ALL. We damage the earth. The earth ends up damaging us. We damage and abuse creatures, it ends up damaging us right back somehow.

That is WHAT THIS WORLD IS.
It's to LEARN.

Does the rain fall on the just as well as the unjust? OF COURSE. Why is that? Because if only bad things happened to people who were doing bad things... our yearning for love and our yearning for good would be shallow, meaningless, worthless. We would seek love and goodness for the wrong reasons. God is smart, ya'll....

This world makes PERFECT sense.
People single theirselves out too often. Talking about others going through judgments, and talking about theirselves as being Kings and Priests in some age to come. I don't think I believe that. We are all ONE, and this world is being judged by the second, and will also be judged once and for all. But the whole WORLD is involved in this judgement. The judgement serves to TEACH, not to punish.


AGAIN... JUDGEMENT serves to TEACH. NOT to punish, as most believe.

This world is here for us to learn.
about....
Love.

GOD.
IS.
LOVE.

We are here to learn about our Creator.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.



What exactly happens after you die?
I do not know.
But I do not fear.
Because I know we will be with God.
I also know we will be reunited with our loved ones who have passed on.
I know that we are ALL the same... whether we understood anything about God in our lives or NOT.
NO-ONE CAN BOAST of anything.

We are all in the same boat. We're here to learn.
We see little bits and pieces of the big picture here, now.
And one day God will show us ALL the BIG picture. (the BIG BIG BIG picture.)
And we will ALL MARVEL, and we will all FEEL SHAME, and we will all feel REMORSE.
BUT.. we will ALL LEARN and feel JOY.
and we will all realize just what an impact LOVE has.
And we will all realize just what an impact NON-LOVE has.
And we will all realize just WHO God is...
(LOVE.)

Then and ONLY then will "time" come to an end and we will finally all be prepared to spend eternity with our creator.


Peace,
sparrow.

[SpiritDriven]

Some of you have much yet to learn, so I am going to give you somthing to consider.

Universalist is a label......if you read I Timothy 4 you will discover that, Especially of believers is the correct term to use, because it is the description that first proceeded out of the mouth of God!

Us especialy of believers look at this way.

Lo! New am I making all....some Bibles translate....Behold I make all things new.

Now that is where us especially of believers are comming from....OK.

Simple eh!

[sheila]

     Sparrow,

         You are not alone on that rooftop.

                                        Sheila

[sparrow]

     Sparrow,

         You are not alone on that rooftop.

                                        Sheila

:love1:

[jabcat]

Some of you have much yet to learn, so I am going to give you somthing to consider.

Universalist is a label......if you read I Timothy 4 you will discover that, Especially of believers is the correct term to use, because it is the description that first proceeded out of the mouth of God!

Us especialy of believers look at this way.

Lo! New am I making all....some Bibles translate....Behold I make all things new.

Now that is where us especially of believers are comming from....OK.

Simple eh!

Some have much to learn?  I think we all do, and that it's a good thing to realize it and admit it.

[SpiritDriven]

Well to be honest.....some of us do not need to know all the inbetween details.

You see I did not need God in my Life, I was doing fine with out him, I have was having too good a time.....got the picture.

I had no way of knowing he was going to catch up with me later in life...in person... and dong me over the head with his intentions towards all human kind.

He does teach me things some times, weather I want to learn them or not, but some of us just do not feel the need to know all the inbetween details.

Mabey some of you have a problem with simple faith.....not me.

Peace

[Doc]

Amen, Sparrow.  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Well to be honest.....some of us do not need to know all the inbetween details.

You see I did not need God in my Life, I was doing fine with out him, I have was having too good a time.....got the picture.

I had no way of knowing he was going to catch up with me later in life...in person... and dong me over the head with his intentions towards all human kind.

He does teach me things some times, weather I want to learn them or not, but some of us just do not feel the need to know all the inbetween details.

Mabey some of you have a problem with simple faith.....not me.

Peace

I will PM you  .I want you to enjoy your time and fellowship here, and others to enjoy you being here.

[fire walker]

Personaly I do not share much of any of those four views, however I do trust it is what Christ has already done and not anything I personaly will to do or not to do,
I am satisfied with grace being sufficient and revelation of the truth that comes by spirit, we pass through the fires of trials and tribulation here in this life, we have nothing to fear in what is beyond the grave, it is fear of what is beyond the grave that drives many into doing some things that they regret latter in this present life and also many religious huxters use this fear to control, exploit and manipulate those who they can through guilt and fear into compliance for money and serving with the corporate religious/political doctrines of men just as it was in the Babylon of old, the spirit of this world hasn't really changed, it is us who the Lord changes, matures and completes as we pass through this world.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: After re-reading #3, I missed the part about changing themselves. We have no power to change anything, especially not then, so I am not in agreement with that aspect of it, but rather the first part.

[sheila]

    Hi,

      I would like to make a comment in re; "especially to

   beleivers" in regard to Jesus being the saviour of the whole

   world. I do not mean this in any contentious manner,

   so please just take it as I personally feel about it.

    Especially, signifies  SPECIAL...and it is this 'specialness'

   that can become a prideful or boasting thing with some.

   .


    What is this 'especially'then? It is the very special

   communion and relationship we enjoy through the Holy spirit.

      What a great reward to enjoy fellowship with Him.

   Many,many,if not most people do not have this great and

  wonderful communion with Him while present on this earth.

    That is the limit of our 'specialness'... that He would

  honour us with the Knowledge of His salvation of all.

   Of course WE,Loving our brothers,WANT THIS FOR EVERYONE

   But, we realize, it is something only He can give.And He

   has assured us,that He will give it to them.

     It is a horrible thing to me, to not KNOW GOD and feel

   so alone in this world without Him.I don't know how they can

  bear it.

     Personally,I desire to encourage others in faith in Him,

    if they speak of something concerning and bothering them,in

  their walk, and I have expierenced it too,I will try and use

   this knowledge to 'BUILD UP'. Also, I glean from other posts

   here,and occasionally enjoy a banquet!


    This 'especially' should not ever be used  to beat our fellow

mankind atop the head with, but share it with.them.

    It is a gift and a HOLY GIFT to be appreciated.

    All mankind is VERY SPECIAL  TO GOD AND JESUS..

   in the parable, Jesus said the shepherd would leave the 99

   and go search for one. I don't want Him to leave me..so

   I will walk with Him as He searches for the one.

    Ezekiel 34 "My sheep wandered over  all the mountains

   and  on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole

   earth, and no one searched or looked for them.

   vs 11 For this is what the Sovereign Lord says' "I myself

   will search for my sheep and look after them.....I will

   rescue them from all the places they were scattered...

   I will save my flock,and they will no longer be plundered.

    I will judge between one sheep and another.

     v31You  my sheep, the sheep of my pasture,are people,

            And I am your God," declares the sovereign Lord 

       John 21;15  Simon,son of John, do you truly love me

    more than these?....Feed my lambs...Simon son of

  John,do you truly love me?......take care of my sheep...

  Simon,son of John,do you love me? Feed my sheep..v18

[Sarah]

What is this 'especially'then? It is the very special

   communion and relationship we enjoy through the Holy spirit.

Beautiful words! This realization has humbled me. Many who say He is not the savior of the world walk in the 'especially', and I say He is the savior of the world and have not walked in it. What an irony!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Sven... :hithere:

I think there are 4 views hold on universalism

- allmost no punishment after death, people go directly to heaven, i think this view is hold by ultra liberal christians or more philosophic christians who believe in Jesus in a way, but not really in the bible, i think this view does more harm than it helps.

- thousands of years in a literal hell fire, this is a view that was hold by some conservative German universalists, but this view is worse than annihilationism in my view

- the unbiblical mystical view, i think Sadhu Sundar Singh and the German Mystics Lorber and Greber teached something like that, a spiritual hell, not really a terrible hell with fire and torture, but a more or less uncomfortable realm of souls according to the lifetime until all are saved by changing themself in the afterlive

- a kind spiritual punishment on judgement day, no afterlive before ressurection, no immortal soul, i think this is the view hold by the concordant publishers which i consider the most biblical.

Enough with the PUNISHMENT and TORTURE!  :thewife: :spank: :heat:  :sweat: :Mcry:  :sigh:

CHRIST tells us in Rev 13:8 to "buy" from Him GOLD tried IN FIRE... and WHITE RAIMENT [clothing] that we might be clothed, ...AND... that the SHAME of our NAKEDNESS does not APPEAR...

THIS LIFE, is the FIRE in which we are TRIED... and in THIS LIFE do we find TORMENT in its various forms... (Spiritual, mental, physical)

I see this [exposure of that done in SECRET] as that which causes TEARS in the eyes of some which thereby appear in SHAME, and others [clothed] look on in sympathy for them because they LOVE these found in SHAME as does GOD, ...which tears [of all] -- GOD shall "dry" forever...

The program of GOD, is NOT about PUNISHMENT, it is about CORRECTION... correction done PERFECTLY, does not harm to the one CORRECTED, IN ANY WAY, it produces a POSITIVE outcome via LOVE...

As I have said... the END is the BEGINNING and vice-versa...  ADAM & Eve stood before GOD ...in the SHAME of their NAKEDNESS... a very unsettling and unpleasant event, because they were NOT CLOTHED in this moment, IN CHRIST... 

Though they had been NAKED before GOD from the moment of their creation... (ALL are born NAKED)... but SHAME became the condition of their HEART, and they HID because they became aware of that SHAME... before the one who is PERFECT.

Those who are not CLOTHED in CHRIST, shall APPEAR before GOD in this manner...

The LIFE which is ETERNAL is not about TORMENT or FEAR of ANY KIND, for the PERFECTION of LOVE has neither... (1 John 4:18)

What "type" of Universalist am I?  ...I'm NOT!  :dontknow:

I believe in the TRUTH... and the TRUTH is that GOD so LOVED [and always will LOVE] the WORLD, ...and that He is NOT WILLING that ANY PERISH...

That is the way HE looked at the WORLD from HIS HEART, ...and I shall endeavor to die every day to how I would view it through my eyes, and look at it through His eyes, instead...  :grouppray:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:cloud9:  willieH      :cloud9:

[sven]

As I have said... the END is the BEGINNING and vice-versa... 

i like this thought and have read something similar not long ago, it reminds me on Ecclesiastes 1,9 That which has been, it is that which shall be.

i enjoy your answers, i'll write my viewpoint on correction at occasion