No "eternal" Hell, then no "eternal" life

[NinjaWizards777]

I suppose thats one way of looking at it.

[Paul Hazelwood]

No offense Ninja,  but your faith should be shaken if it's the church you believe.   The Church is not our Savior.

I know this, but if it wasnt for the church we wouldnt even know about our savior.

I have to disagree with that, but in no offense to the difficulties you see present.   The church that you are referring too is a man invented organization.   The Church of Jesus Christ is spiritual and nothing physical is required.   I knew of Jesus before I could have uttered those physical words.  The church you refer to beat it out of me and replaced it with their version.

That may not help you, but it is the truth in my life.

[NinjaWizards777]

 I knew of Jesus before I could have uttered those physical words. 

what do you mean by that

[Paul Hazelwood]

 I knew of Jesus before I could have uttered those physical words. 

what do you mean by that

It means I had the sense the awareness of something greater than me that gave me comfort.  I was very young 3 - 4 years old, I had no way to express with any words that anyone could understand, when I would try I was always corrected to say that I had to accept Jesus.

As I got a little older and could convey my thoughts a bit better I would hear certain things about God and that Jesus was God (not disputing that just making my point here at that age)
So soon this peace and comfort of something I was aware of and accepted was eventually replaced with a God that I came to somewhat despise and believe I could never please or measure up to anyway.

[NinjaWizards777]

but thats not the goal of christianity or our relationship with God

[Paul Hazelwood]

but thats not the goal of christianity or our relationship with God

Well, thats beside the point of what I was subjected to when I was young "in church".

[NinjaWizards777]

ah

[jabcat]

I think what I get from this is, it's not the goal, but what Paul describes is often the byproduct of what happens when traditions of men replace the purity of the message of Jesus.  We've messed it up pretty good, actually.  Then I think of God working all according to His will, and realize He's allowed what He's allowed for reasons, and He'll fix it. 

I do see what you're saying Ninja about "the churches and how we hear"...however, let's imagine 1500 years ago that the catholic "church" had not gotten hold of and done what they've done to Jesus' message.  Let's say they didn't create all these big buildings with steeples, put men in authority that claimed to be the mouthpiece of God and the way for people to communicate with and hear from God;  that they didn't continually figure out ways to add to and distort Jesus' message, because His message brought people to Him, not to them and not under their control/influence.  After all, they had to line their pockets and "meet their budget".  Then, they called all that "church"...and "living for God"...and "you have to do this to keep from going to hell", etc., etc.; to where we are today, that most if not all denominations are offshoots of the church of Rome ("the whore and her daughters?").  That churchianity today is infiltrated with those Romish beliefs, customs, and traditions, and they don't even know it.  Because what they do is "church";  it's "having church"..."going to church", and "you need to get back in church"...it's a big part of the norm of "being a good Christian" and "being obedient, living for the Lord". 

Now does God use all that?  I personally think He does.  There's a fellow that used to post here that counted himself to have great knowledge of "the Word".  He disagreed with me on this, stating that people who hadn't yet been revealed about UR had not "been reconciled yet to God", that they didn't know Him, in essence, weren't saved.  I don't buy it.  Many good things have happened in and through dear brothers and sisters still "in the church" that truly love the Lord but continue to be veiled to the traditions of men in churchianity.  There are many good, God-fearing, Jesus-loving people there.  So can one hear about Jesus there, and come to a saving relationship with Him there?  Some say not, but I personally say "absolutely YES!". God can use anything and anyone He chooses for His glory.  But.....do I also believe He is lifting a veil for many and showing them things IN HIS WORD, that have been there all the time, but there seems to be a season of His revelation going on?  I also say "absolutely YES!".  He graciously has shown me some of those things, and spoke to me to "come out of her".  I cannot condemn those that are still there.  God can use them, they love Him, and He will speak to them His will as He sees fit.  We are to "charge and teach those things", but it's up to God to work His will and "bring the increase".  I share with others what God has done for/in me, and leave it up to them and God where He leads them.  All my friends "go to church".  We're still brothers and sisters, but there is naturally (spiritually) still somewhat of a "separation" because of their continuance in orthodoxy and God having called me out.  That's uncomfortable, but it's up to God where, who, and how He leads.

OK, enough.  I'm out, God's blessing, James.

[ScarletWren]

Jabcat     :goodpost:

[CHB]

jabcat,

Great post, that is exactly the way I feel about it as well.  :thumbsup:

CHB

[Doc]

Jabcat     :goodpost:

Ditto.

[alihaymeg]

maybe their lives will not get messed up by the sinful ways of the world, but be on a path of true life that will be, spiritually speaking, everlasting

Don't ever forget to complete the thought that Jesus wanted to convey here.

John 3:17

For God sent not the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the (same)world through Him might be saved.

God Bless you!

[jabcat]

Appreciated Doc, C, and SW...I'm glad we connected.  God's blessing, James.

[NinjaWizards777]

Many good things have happened in and through dear brothers and sisters still "in the church" that truly love the Lord but continue to be veiled to the traditions of men in churchianity.  There are many good, God-fearing, Jesus-loving people there.  So can one hear about Jesus there, and come to a saving relationship with Him there?  Some say not, but I personally say "absolutely YES!". God can use anything and anyone He chooses for His glory.  But.....do I also believe He is lifting a veil for many and showing them things IN HIS WORD, that have been there all the time, but there seems to be a season of His revelation going on?  I also say "absolutely YES!".

I think this was an important thing to admit, and an important thing for people to see.

Whether universalism is true or not, or in what way, i agree with this

[legoman]

Many good things have happened in and through dear brothers and sisters still "in the church" that truly love the Lord but continue to be veiled to the traditions of men in churchianity.  There are many good, God-fearing, Jesus-loving people there.  So can one hear about Jesus there, and come to a saving relationship with Him there?  Some say not, but I personally say "absolutely YES!". God can use anything and anyone He chooses for His glory.  But.....do I also believe He is lifting a veil for many and showing them things IN HIS WORD, that have been there all the time, but there seems to be a season of His revelation going on?  I also say "absolutely YES!".

I think this was an important thing to admit, and an important thing for people to see.

Whether universalism is true or not, or in what way, i agree with this

This is also confirmed in scripture:

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Who is it that does many wonderful works in the Lord's name?  Its not the athiests and non-believers of the world.  Sure they may do good works, but they don't claim it in the name of God.

No, it is the church of this world that does good works in the name of God.  Most churches do many good works - building community, feeding the poor, helping families in need, etc.  They even lead people to Christ.  These are all good things to do.  The churches do them in the name of the Lord.

Yet on that day, many of them (those in the church) will be cast aside because he "never knew" them (Matthew 7:23).

God uses the foolishness of preaching to achieve his purpose and the weak to shame the "wise" (read all of 1 Cor 1).

Legoman

[NinjaWizards777]

thats still one of the most confusing verses in the Bible to me. What was Jesus actually saying there...that if you dont always understand His will but yet still try and do things for him that your in danger of going to Hell even though you called him "Lord"???

is it simply talking about people that were total hypocrites and though they say they did things for "GOD" were only doing it purley for their motives?

and what does it mean by "away from me I never knew you?", and to where and how long? If Hell is a temporary process or punishment...then well thats still not great but...if its eternal than thats even more sad.

everyone Ive asked, including pastors always give me a different perspective on this verse

[Sarah]

Their are many in ET churches who know him. I was apart of such a doctrine for many, many years before God revealed to me the true nature of 'hell'. I loved Him, He spoke to me, and I loved people also. The longer I remain in the doctrine of UR, the less judgmental I become of people who believe otherwise, and I am able to see that they have many spiritual gifts to offer.

[Sarah]

is it simply talking about people that were total hypocrites and though they say they did things for "GOD" were only doing it purely for their motives?

I believe this to be the case. You notice that it was the one cast out that said they did wonderful works, not God.

[jabcat]

So do we think someone can cast out devils in their own power?  Or would it still be God's power working through them, even though He never knew them and they were still being cast away?  I think that's a head-scratcher.

[Sarah]

It's all by God's power.

Deuteronomy 13

1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.