Universalism, the banned subject

[legoman]

A worthyboards!

Read through this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1997.msg20716#msg20716

What's your moniker over there?

"legoman" of course :Sparkletooth:

Yeah I was somewhat aware that worthy wasn't too friendly to UR as will, but I honestly couldn't find a clear statement in their TOS.  So far I have been flying under the radar over there, haven't even talked to a mod.

Legoman

[legoman]

Apocatastasis,

After reading through your dialog with PP, I would just say prepare yourself to receive the big BAN notice.

I was having similar discussions with Dave and TBR in contro over there and eventually they just decided to boot me.  I thought the discussions were going relatively friendly and then kind of out of the blue I received the big BAN notice.  It did shock me a bit as I had never been banned from anywhere before.

Ask yourself this: is it better to be banned there, or can you stay under the radar while possibly opening some eyes & making some others aware of alternative ideas.

I know sometimes I still wish I had an account there as I see people who are obviously lost and confused that could use some help.  Other times I thank God I was banned there as I no longer have the frustation of trying to hold a discussion at that board.

Anyway something to think about before you press the topic too much more.

Cheers,
Legoman

[WhiteWings]

A worthyboards!

Read through this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1997.msg20716#msg20716

What's your moniker over there?

I think the crew show write a script with 666 approved sentances.
The user then can compile his/hers reply by selecting a few lines....

Xel'Naga seems the one around there with sound logic.

Doctrines are simply the systematic excogitation of scripture; when scripturally sound they are a good thing, when not, they are bad. We could try answering the question again. Instead of "What doctrines must one believe to be saved?" you could ask, "What does the Bible say one must believe to be saved?" It is the same question.

From the e-mails you quoted here it sound like you started many threads.
I searched the forum and I found just one thread started by you: What doctrines must we believe to be saved?
Are the other threads deleted?
I also don't understand your ban. UR is allowed on that forum accordig to the rules.

Unorthodox teachings or discussing specific doctrines (=non Protestant) of ANY of these religions will be moved to
the "World Religions" Forum:
.....
7. Universalism of any sort to include Universal Reconciliation

Then read:
4. ANY non-Christian religion, such as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, etc.

No UR there. Sounds like they see it as Christian like Roman Catholism

[Apocatastasis]

I was under the impression that UR was permitted to be discussed too, but when I asked them about it, I got this response:

Universalism is permitted to be discussed in the World Religions forum with the goal of showing how it is unbiblical.

It is not permitted to be advanced at all on any forums.

LOL that's rich!

[legoman]

LOL yes you can say anything about UR as long as you only present the board's viewpoint, and don't "advance" UR.

Unfortunately asking a question about UR and presenting scripture that seems to show UR is seen as "advancing" UR.

Just to clarify - that is at bibleforums.org.  I didn't see any similar statements over at worthyboards, but it may be the case there too.

Legoman

[Apocatastasis]

David Taylor, another head mod over at bibleforums.org, had this to say:

Peter's away right now, but here's the short answer.

UR has been debunked on this forum...it's been debunked a hundred times, maybe a thousand times.

The scriptures involving it have been presented, explained and reexplained.

The reason it has become a topic of non-Advancement, is because we as a Mainstream Protestant body agree with the historical stance the mainstream Christian church has held in regards to this view since the apostolic days, that it is a heresy, that could potential lead people to eternal hell....one of which UR proponents don't even believe in.

We do allow it to be debunked, we just do not allow it to be advanced and promoted, because this isn't a UR advancement Forum...just like it isn't a Pro-Koran or Pro-David Koresh forum either. Pretty simple.

If this were a Chevy website, our focus would be on promoting Chevys, not promoting Fords...so when a Ford guy wanted to show up and argue and debate against Chevys in favor of Fords, it wouldn't be beneficial to our membership.

This is a Mainstream Protestant Membership, which like historic Christianity before us, doesn't accept Universalism therefore, we don't allow it to be advanced and argued.

For those who want to debunk it, there are dozens and dozens of threads in our archives that do this. Using the [Search] feature isn't difficult.

Similarly, bringing up a new topic asking why it is a heresy and why it should be rejected is fine. That happens all the time in both the Bible-Chat forum, the Apologetics Forum, and the World Religions Forum.

Where the problem lies with topics like Universalism, is when folks want to come here and argue in favor of, and advance it or other unChristian doctrines that are against the rules because of all I've stated above.

If someone came here from another website and they reacted the way your quotes say, that tells me they weren't coming here to find out why UR is wrong and should be rejected, but rather to argue and debate UR. Otherwise, their attitude and reaction would have been completely different. They guy came here with the idea that this board couldn't argue away UR, therefore it must be right, and we dismiss the topic because we don't have an answer for it.

Wrong.

There are pages and pages and pages in the archives that do answer why it is a rejectable and damnable heresy.

Start searching if you want, but good grief cut out this carrying on about UR. Someone who wants the truth will seek it in a meek, humble, thoughtful, and understanding manner...not go out throwing around words and phrases like: "they refuse", "it is silly", "they accused me", "they're judgmental", there not "thinking", There not allowing speech "freely", "are arrogant", "can't wriggle", are "weak", etc...

Anyone coming here peddling comments like that are simply here to sew discord, not to search for truth and become a edifiable part of the fellowship here.

That's it.

[NinjaWizards777]

My only question is, if Christ is truth, the bible is the truth...which I hope we can agree on in belief...why are people so afraid?

What is it with so many christians today that we think we need to seal ourselves in little boxed communities with our own "christian" music and "christian" movies and only "christian" friends, not discussing any belief we disagree with because "thinking too hard isnt good"? Like I seriously dont get it...maybe someone can explain it to me?

Is that what Jesus ever did? Did he take the disciples and hide in a cave? NO! He was out there, telling people the truth, eating and befriending and healing sinners and saints alike.

What are people so afraid of?

[Paul Hazelwood]

My only question is, if Christ is truth, the bible is the truth...which I hope we can agree on in belief...why are people so afraid?

In a nutshell the fear comes from two things.   

1.You cannot prove that Christ nor the bible is truth, as much as you or anyone else wants to maintain that it is true, you cannot prove it, you can only have faith and hope that it is. 

2. It is the denial of #1 that will instill fear as you wish for your faith to have proof.

[legoman]

Hi Ninja,

Its called a "comfort zone".  People are taught a certain thing, get in their own comfortable group, and then don't want anything to change because they are in their comfort zone.  Any new idea that could challenge their ideas would break their comfort zone, thus they won't be comfortable anymore.  Therefore the defences come up to maintain the comfort, even if their thought process is irrational.  Comfort is a powerful motivator.

Consider what a pastor might go through if confronted with learning the truth of UR.  He could possibly lose:
- his friends
- his family
- his congregration
- the status & prestige of being in that congregration
- his livelihood
- even his house & basic necessities of life

That is a lot of comfort to be lost for one new idea.

It even happens in UR circles.  We cannot rest on our laurels.  We should always be questioning.  What is the truth?  When we think we know the truth, we should question further.  Any further questioning should also confirm or refute that truth.

There is an old axiom: if a "thing" is truely false, any study of that "thing" will only further confirm its "falseness".  Likewise if a "thing" is truely the truth, any study of that "thing" will only further confirm its truth. 

I don't think anyone will ever know the whole truth until the resurrection or later.  But we should always be studying to learn more.  The problems start when people stop studying and rest in their comfort zone.

Cheers,
Legoman

[legoman]

1.You cannot prove that Christ nor the bible is truth, as much as you or anyone else wants to maintain that it is true, you cannot prove it, you can only have faith and hope that it is. 

True, we can not absolutely prove the bible is true.  But we can look at the evidence and approach it with sound logical reasoning.

This eventually comes down to the question: how did we get here?  We can make up all the theories we want: we spontaneously generated, we evolved, etc.

But then we run up against a brick wall in the laws of thermodynamics.  It is a fundamental law of the universe that a state of order will proceed to a state disorder.  Things break down.  Things decay.  Stars explode.  Rooms get messy.  So then we have a problem:  why is there order in the universe at all?  How did order arise from disorder, when we know it is a scientific law that order always tends to state of disorder?

So from this one logical rational scientific law we have now proven that there must be an outside influence on the universe, and this outside influence brought about the order that we see.  Otherwise the universe would be just a big chaotic mess of goo.

And there are hundreds of other things discovered in science, history, archaeology, that give us evidence that there is a creator, the bible was written by the men who we think wrote it, and it was inspired by God due to the things that are in that bible.  It takes a lifetime to study all this stuff, but each step along the way will either confirm or refute what you know to be the truth. 

It definitely makes life interesting.  From what I've found, if you really want to proceed in understanding the truth, you have to verify it all for yourself.  Don't rely on what other people say.  And don't get too comfortable  :winkgrin:

Cheers,
Legoman

[legoman]

David Taylor, another head mod over at bibleforums.org, had this to say:

Peter's away right now, but here's the short answer.

UR has been debunked on this forum...it's been debunked a hundred times, maybe a thousand times.

The scriptures involving it have been presented, explained and reexplained.

The reason it has become a topic of non-Advancement, is because we as a Mainstream Protestant body agree with the historical stance the mainstream Christian church has held in regards to this view since the apostolic days, that it is a heresy, that could potential lead people to eternal hell....one of which UR proponents don't even believe in.

We do allow it to be debunked, we just do not allow it to be advanced and promoted, because this isn't a UR advancement Forum...just like it isn't a Pro-Koran or Pro-David Koresh forum either. Pretty simple.

If this were a Chevy website, our focus would be on promoting Chevys, not promoting Fords...so when a Ford guy wanted to show up and argue and debate against Chevys in favor of Fords, it wouldn't be beneficial to our membership.

This is a Mainstream Protestant Membership, which like historic Christianity before us, doesn't accept Universalism therefore, we don't allow it to be advanced and argued.

For those who want to debunk it, there are dozens and dozens of threads in our archives that do this. Using the [Search] feature isn't difficult.

Similarly, bringing up a new topic asking why it is a heresy and why it should be rejected is fine. That happens all the time in both the Bible-Chat forum, the Apologetics Forum, and the World Religions Forum.

Where the problem lies with topics like Universalism, is when folks want to come here and argue in favor of, and advance it or other unChristian doctrines that are against the rules because of all I've stated above.

If someone came here from another website and they reacted the way your quotes say, that tells me they weren't coming here to find out why UR is wrong and should be rejected, but rather to argue and debate UR. Otherwise, their attitude and reaction would have been completely different. They guy came here with the idea that this board couldn't argue away UR, therefore it must be right, and we dismiss the topic because we don't have an answer for it.

Wrong.

There are pages and pages and pages in the archives that do answer why it is a rejectable and damnable heresy.

Start searching if you want, but good grief cut out this carrying on about UR. Someone who wants the truth will seek it in a meek, humble, thoughtful, and understanding manner...not go out throwing around words and phrases like: "they refuse", "it is silly", "they accused me", "they're judgmental", there not "thinking", There not allowing speech "freely", "are arrogant", "can't wriggle", are "weak", etc...

Anyone coming here peddling comments like that are simply here to sew discord, not to search for truth and become a edifiable part of the fellowship here.

That's it.

Unfortunately their board is named bibleforums.org which is a bit misleading.  It should be named mainstreamprotestantforums.org instead...

[WhiteWings]

Reading reply#30 it's even more clear to me.

If this were a Chevy website, our focus would be on promoting Chevys, not promoting Fords...so when a Ford guy wanted to show up and argue and debate against Chevys in favor of Fords, it wouldn't be beneficial to our membership.

They don't want to discuss cars/Christianity but they only want to discuss a Chevy/Protestantism.

I can live with that. There are similar rules on this forum.
Gary, the owner of this forum, also asks from Martin that he keeps this forum on a UR track.
Bad for Calvinists, good for UR believers.
Perhaps TM is a bit more less strickt than that other board because it even has an "Arguments against UR" section.
Is that stupidity or a sign of strength of teh crew? I think the last because they are not scared to face debunkers head-on.

[firstborn888]

They asked me what church I belonged to and I replied, "the church of the Firstborn."

They didn't like that answer.  Oh well...

But I don't remember seeing you at my gathering last Sunday  :sigh:  :mshock:

:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

[Apocatastasis]

When I asked about it they left my post but edited it to say "controversial topic" wherever I said "Universal Reconciliation"

Wow, pathetic.  But funny.  I guess UR is an expletive over there?  What board is it?

[Paul Hazelwood]

In fairness to the rules of a forum I am not so sure it is unreasonable that it be respected.

However, there is a certain amount of knowledge that can be conveyed if they allow debunkers  to post if you get my drift.

Stealth technology is a good example,  it's there, it is perceived as nothing, but can pack a punch when you least expect something would appear.

In otherwords,  if you come forth with an obvious intent to try to change the rules and debate the rules, they can see you coming from miles away.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Oh and just in case some might think it would be bad form to be sneaky.


2C 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.



:laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Paul,

When you are a new member you can be stealthy. But a stealth fighter drops out of stealth if its fires the guns...
Say you pick out 5 verses and ask what they mean. Many 'groups of verses' (don't know the word for it) somehow always lean toward UR things like fire/all/forever.
So you get an answer like 'all that don't believe burn forever'
Try to be stealthy when saying they misunderstood all/fire/forever. You stealth fighter will be tagged and the attacks won't be stealthy anymore.

Matt Slicks CARM has similar rules; but at least he had a rather long debate with Scott/pneuma. A great chance for both sides to debunk the debunker. But did Matt change his opinion? Same for the board we are discussing now.
For the posted e-mails it sounds like the board crew (tried to) debunk UR many times. They obviously didn't see truth in UR. Then I can understand they get bored explaining/debunking the same over and over.
It's not just because UR is small compared to other forms of religion because they also only allow debunking Islam and Catholism. Both are big. Bigger that Protestantism I think.

[jabcat]

Paul,

Many 'groups of verses' (don't know the word for it)

The word for it here in America WW is, "groups of verses"  :laughing7:.

[WhiteWings]

Jabcat,

Can I extrapolate that by saying groupies are Bible scholars?  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

Yeah, OK, but mainly it's that Bible scholars have groupies  :thumbsup:.

[Sarah]

Unfortunately their board is named bibleforums.org which is a bit misleading.  It should be named mainstreamprotestantforums.org instead...

:laughing7:

I wonder what it would be like to go in their as myself right before I came to UR, voicing my confusion and frustration and bitterness.

Would that be lying?

[jabcat]

Unfortunately their board is named bibleforums.org which is a bit misleading.  It should be named mainstreamprotestantforums.org instead...

:laughing7:

I wonder what it would be like to go in their as myself right before I came to UR, voicing my confusion and frustration and bitterness.

Would that be lying?

I was kind of wondering along the same lines Sarah. Maybe if you were careful and didn't lie, but expressed some of those points of view...you wouldn't have to outright claim anything, maybe just express from personal experience, some of that stuff...sort of like role playing, but expressing things that had been real to you...It could be like "what if I felt like this", "I've had the thoughts and feelings at times of...."  You may be just the one to do this, because you could draw from real stuff.

I was thinking about going in there in such a way as to question and "cast doubt" on UR to "disprove it" as is apparently allowed, but actually with the intent to expose some things to light...you know, like "How can they say in Col. 1:20 that God is reconciling all to himself? Does all really mean all, or doesn't it mean just those few that choose Jesus?"  It would have to be really thought out, that's just an example, and it may have to be even more subtle than that...but it's a thought and a possibility...

God's blessing, James.

[Sarah]

It would be interesting. I may pick up a few bites from you all posting me toward UR. Then you'd for sure be kicked off especially if I started biting; Evil Universalists leading the weak ones astray.

The danger is that deception in anyway is a huge discreditor. But I suppose if one goes in as a questioner, and not too revealing right away, it isn't deception. Sort of the Socratic method; let them find their own answers through questions.

What is the gospel?
What kind of God creates hell as the default destination for mankind?
What kind of God gives me the power to damn myself eternally?
I have heard that you go to hell if you don't believe in the trinity, is that the same as "I want to be in constant agony and mental torment for all eternity?"
Can you trust that kind of God?
If God had forknowledge, why did He create hell?
If God is Love, why did He create Hell?
If God is all powerful, why did He create Hell?
What's so great about heaven if my family is in hell?

These are little drops that will eat away at you later.

[jabcat]

Good job, I like it...great questions...those are the ones  :thumbsup:.

[legoman]

I tried that strategy for a few posts when I joined bibleforums initially.  I also saw other people ask similar questions.  ie. Asking questions about UR from a 'newbie' point of view.

Usually when the topic of UR (or something close to UR) comes up, someone will say something like the following:

"It sounds like you are talking about universalism which is not allowed to be discussed here.  But suffice it to say universalism is NOT biblical."  Then an attempt is made to show the newbie the "correct" thinking.

Any further discussion showing bible verses that support UR usually results in cries of "you are taking it out of context - this is what it really means in the whole context of the bible".  At that point if you don't give in, your thread will probably be closed or moved to contro. 

Take for example a simple statement like "God is Love".  OH NO God is only love in context!  He is also just and holy which of course equates with throwing people into fire for eternity (?!? I never could figure out how it was "just" and "holy" to provide a never ending punishment)...

Anyway if you press the matter and continue to post on the subject in other threads, you are quickly outed as a "heretic who is promoting universalism" which will eventually lead to being banned if you don't submit.

JMHO of what I saw there.

For example read this thread (warning this is at the bibleforums site):
http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?t=149772

and you will see how things get twisted... although there are a few funny comments on there.

Legoman