Universalism, the banned subject

[Apocatastasis]

I can think of three fairly big christian boards which have banned all discussion of UR:

CARM
Worthyboards
Bibleforums.org

Currently, I am posting at bibleforums.org, where one of the head mods, "project peter" recently asserted that UR is a damnable doctrine and that Christian Universalists are not relly Christians.  When I asked him to explain his reasoning, he basically said that he would not waste his time explaining himself to me.  What is wrong with these people?

[jabcat]

Veiled.  Ask him if he has a revelation of what Colossians 1:20 is really saying, not what he's always been taught.  If he blows you off, then he's yet to be revealed, and he is just unable to see it.  Someday he will. 

[Apocatastasis]

He's not going to answer any of my questions.

[jabcat]

Then to me, the things he's said, that attitude and the way he's blown you off about this, IMO, does tell us something about him being veiled or revealed.  At first I wrote 'blind', then figured I'd be nicer and say veiled  :laughing7:.

[firstborn888]

http://www.christcenteredforums.com/forum/index.php
This site banned UR (at least temporarily) last year. When I asked about it they left my post but edited it to say "controversial topic" wherever I said "Universal Reconciliation"  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

B, I started to say "unbelievable",  but then I remembered God's in control of this, He has a plan, so I guess we can believe it...although we just shake our heads...:pitiful:

[legoman]

I spent 6 months posting at bibleforums.org, trying to bring up UR any subtle way I could think of.  Had several conversations with threebigrocks and some of the other mods over there... they weren't seeing it.  Eventually I was fully banned, account deleted, at least they left some of my posts up though.  Its funny - my main point for going there was to learn & discuss it, as I was looking for any holes in UR.  All it did was strengthen my belief in UR, especially when they refuse to even talk about it.  It is silly really.

You are right it is unbelievable (a miracle) that they don't see it, but God has blinded them so they won't see.

Think of it this way:  when you are trying to open someone's eyes - you are running up against God's will.  You are hoping to "will" them into seeing, yet it is God's will that they be blinded.  Who do you think is going to win that battle of the wills?  :winkgrin:

I try not to get frustrated by it because I know it is God's will - but it still does frustrate me.

Legoman

[legoman]

Apocatastasis, if you don't mind me asking, what's your username over on bibleforums?

Thanks,
Legoman

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You know, for the life of me I don't understand why UR is such a big threatening deal to so many. So what if God saves all? Shouldn't that be a good thing, and if we could have any wish wouldn't WE want all men to be saved? Are we more righteous than God? Their reasoning is just so foreign to me and from what I've read about some of you all's posts about your battles with it/them, irrational too. My hats off to ya......Blessings....

[NinjaWizards777]

There are some nice folks on biblefourms...but I was also harked down by the mods and practicly "suspended" til the mods "straightened me out". They accused me of trying to just start trouble and "play christian"...

Sadly, that is the type of judgemental attitude that pushes people away from church. When will people understand that THINKING about your belifs and examining them...is not bad. Nor is at least hearing another persons side..and letting them say it freely.

One can have strong belifs and still be able to listen in love and keep in mind that NO ONE can understand God and his ways fully...to play otherwise, is arrogant and not christ like

[Molly]

There are some nice folks on biblefourms...but I was also harked down by the mods and practicly "suspended" til the mods "straightened me out". They accused me of trying to just start trouble and "play christian"...

Sadly, that is the type of judgemental attitude that pushes people away from church. When will people understand that THINKING about your belifs and examining them...is not bad. Nor is at least hearing another persons side..and letting them say it freely.

One can have strong belifs and still be able to listen in love and keep in mind that NO ONE can understand God and his ways fully...to play otherwise, is arrogant and not christ like

They asked me what church I belonged to and I replied, "the church of the Firstborn."

They didn't like that answer.  Oh well...

[WhiteWings]

"project peter" recently asserted that UR is a damnable doctrine and that Christian Universalists are not relly Christians. 

A ray of light. Usually we are called heretics. Now only a damnable doctrine  :laughing7:

When I asked him to explain his reasoning, he basically said that he would not waste his time explaining himself to me.  What is wrong with these people?

I don't know the person or the board but if PP usually is very active with long posts and now doesn't want to answer your posts he is clearly with his back to the wall. If UR is so simply wrong it's his duty as a self proclaimed true believer to debunk all your questions so that 1000's of readers of his forum don't fall in teh UR trap.
But he knows he can't wriggle himself out of many UR verses and logic. So he attacks you instead or UR.
Overhere we call that playing on the person (instead of the ball) => sign of weakness

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: You know, for the life of me I don't understand why UR is such a big threatening deal to so many. So what if God saves all? Shouldn't that be a good thing, and if we could have any wish wouldn't WE want all men to be saved? Are we more righteous than God? Their reasoning is just so foreign to me and from what I've read about some of you all's posts about your battles with it/them, irrational too. My hats off to ya......Blessings....

I think their reasoning is actully very normal. (normal behavior usally is bad)
- All non UR denominations have the 2 strong pillars of some sort of elect and hell. UR doesn't
- It proves they where wrong. Not only on some minor point but the whole message. -> makes them look stupid.
- It's unfair of God to give grace to all the bad guys.
- It's unfair the bad guys didn't work for it but still recieve the same grace as they do.

Basicly it's about greed.
They are the early workers in Matthew 20:1-16 UR people are those of the last hour.

[Tony N]

:cloud9: You know, for the life of me I don't understand why UR is such a big threatening deal to so many. So what if God saves all? Shouldn't that be a good thing, and if we could have any wish wouldn't WE want all men to be saved? Are we more righteous than God? Their reasoning is just so foreign to me and from what I've read about some of you all's posts about your battles with it/them, irrational too. My hats off to ya......Blessings....

I think their reasoning is actully very normal. (normal behavior usally is bad)
- All non UR denominations have the 2 strong pillars of some sort of elect and hell. UR doesn't
- It proves they where wrong. Not only on some minor point but the who message. -> makes them look stupid.
- It's unfair of God to give grace to all the bad guys.
- It's unfair the bad guys didn't work for it but still recieve the same grace as they do.

Basicly it's about greed.
They are the early workers in Matthew 20:1-16 UR people are those of the last hour.

A-M-E-N ! WhiteWings

[Apocatastasis]

legoman,

I post as Old Earther. I remember seeing you around.

[Cardinal]

A ray of light. Usually we are called heretics. Now only a damnable doctrine  :laughing7:

:cloud9:  :mrflo:

PS. And I was just getting used to, "heretic"...... :mshock:

[legoman]

Old Earther aka Apocatastasis...

Ah cool!  I remember reading your posts and seeing the UR thoughts you were presenting.  I know I added you on my "friend list" about a week before I was banned.  Good to meet you again.

Unfortunately I was eventually not as subtle and took to pressing the UR topic directly with the mods, which they didn't like.  They just didn't want UR discussed at all unless it was to bash it and "disprove" it.  So it was bye bye account for me, even though I was polite and respectful in my discussions.  I can't even see any of the posts I wrote in contro any more because they are no longer accessible to me.  Oh well.

Cheers and good luck with your stealth mission  :bigGrin:

Legoman

[Apocatastasis]

Folks,

Below is the exchange between Project Peter and I. It is a bit long, but very revealing and entertaining!



Me: My second question is to Project Peter. Sir, what is the reasoning behind your assertion that Christian Universalism is a damnable heresy? Are you suggesting that Christian Universalists are not really Christians?

Thanks and God bless!

PP:  That is exactly what I am saying... thought I was pretty clear with that when I wrote words such as "damnable doctrine." Again... is that so hard to understand that you still can't grasp what I am thinking and saying? Not sure that I can make it any more clear for you than that eh?  

Me: I asked you explain your reasoning. Can you do that?

So if a person believe all the essentials of the Christian and also believes that all people will eventually be saved by faith in Christ, that person is not a Christian. That is truly bewildering to hear you say that. Please explain if you can.

PP:    No... I have seen what happens when folks explain their reasoning to you. It will consist of another twenty post back and forth which I honestly have no desire to do with you. That it bewilders you is not at all a surprise to me.  

Me: I thought people go to hell because they reject Christ, not because they believe Christ will save all the sinners he came to save. Your assertion that Christian Universalists are not Christian is absurd. Perhaps you don't want to explain your reasoning because there is no reasoning behind your assertion?

PP:    Actually... your reply is why I have no desire to discuss it with you. You don't have any desire to discuss it with me either... you simply want to go on and on and on to make your point. I don't honestly care to hear your point beyond what you have already said.

Me: My point is simply that a christian can believe that Christ will save all in due time and still be a christian. How can you reasonably dispute this? Please explain.  

PP:    You know... I'm not sure what part of "I have no desire to discuss this with you" is so hard to get ahold of... but let me put it this way. You have plenty of threads started in this forum and as folks explain things to you those explanations just lead to another twenty explanations until you finally bore of whatever it is that you are doing. I'm not going to go that round with you as others have done. If David would like to do this once again with you then he can certainly play along. I'm not inclined to do so because your track record at this sort of stinks.

You are Universalist as is obvious and you aren't nearly as slick as you appear to think you are. You push and poke and constantly stay on the line of UR even though we have the rules that we do in place. It really is getting tiring as is the constant threads we have in here with you. It is not that ammusing any longer and the moderators have been quite longsuffering with you.

Me:  Aside from asking you to clarify something that you said on the subject, I merely noted the distinction between two types of universalism (Unitarian and Christian). The only other thing I said on the subject was that the universalists who insist that the Greek word aionios does not mean "eternal" are wrong. What's the problem?

PP:   Let me rephrase it then. You are knocking on the universalist door.

The problem I have explained several times already. You are the problem as you have exhibited the whole time you have been here. You have been warned numerous times in your very short time here. You have more threads in here, during that time, than a lot of long time members have had in their long time here. We are not going to debate the rules with you in here. We are not going to spend countless post in here justifying those rules. You don't have to like the rules as liking them is not a requirement. However you do have to follow them. You understand that don't you?  

Me: My question for you has nothing to do with the board rules. It has to do with your outrageous comment that a person can't be a christian and also believe that Christ will save all. You understand that, don't you?

PP:  When someone says that they are not interested in discussing something with you... what does that mean?

A. They are not interested.
B. They are not interested.
C. They are not interested.

Pick one of those... I promise you that you won't be wrong. Do you undestand that?  

Me:  I can be sarcastic too.

So, is it a requirement for moderators here to lack the ability to give a reasoned response to simple questions?

PP: Yes... that is one of the leading indicators with us that a person will be a wonderful moderator.  

Me:   Alright, I'll let this go. It is disappointing though.

PP: Now you are understanding.

Me: Yes, I understand that you are unable to defend your beliefs and that you are unable to effectively counter the heresy of universal salvation. I understand that you feel intimidated by this doctrine and that you fear it being discussed on the open boads because of your inability to reason against it. You see, PP, I am able to argue efectively against UR. Unlike you, I am not afraid of confronting this particular heresy. This board's policy with resepct to this issue is downright pathetic and will only pique the curiosity of young Christians. Just use your common sense. If you tell someone that a doctrine is not permitted to be debated, don't you think that they will want to know what is so special about said doctrine?  


PP: Last time that I checked... you were not the owner of the board nor a board administrator who determines the pathetic rules of the board. Until that time... those are the rules whether you like the rules or think them pathetic. You only have to abide by them.

Now that we have that settled let me make this clear to you. Your attitude is going to make your time here very short. Either begin to chill out and abide by the rules or find a forum that you find less pathetic.  

[NinjaWizards777]

"Make it known that you are right about everything, and you are just because you say you are...no need for discussion"....seems to be the creed of american christianity anymore

[WhiteWings]

Pathetic Peter sounds like a cheerful and understanding guy  :winkgrin:

[Cardinal]

Me:  I can be sarcastic too.

So, is it a requirement for moderators here to lack the ability to give a reasoned response to simple questions?

PP: Yes... that is one of the leading indicators with us that a person will be a wonderful moderator.  

:cloud9: This part was REALLY funny..... :laughing7:

PS. I think he fits the classic definition of irrational = refusing to let your opinions interfere with the truth.

[Apocatastasis]

Cardinal, what's funnier is that judging from the way that the mods there routinely evade questions, you would think PP was being serious!

[legoman]

Veiled.  Ask him if he has a revelation of what Colossians 1:20 is really saying, not what he's always been taught.  If he blows you off, then he's yet to be revealed, and he is just unable to see it.  Someday he will. 

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Well clearly these verses show that God is not going to reconcile all things or the world to himself, because you have to take into account the context of the rest of the bible that says we are going to hell if we don't accept Christ as our savior.  See God only does 99% of the work,  but if we don't do that 1% and accept Christ, God can't do anything about it.  So actually its all really up to us cause God respects our choice to choose hell.  Heaven would be like hell anyway if one didn't want to be there...

Oops there I go again being sarcastic.   :laughing7: I'm sure God will work that out of me at some point...

Anyway jabcat I will ask your question over at worthychristianforums (since I have an account over there that still works) and report back with the answer.

Enjoy,
Legoman

[Apocatastasis]

A worthyboards!

Read through this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1997.msg20716#msg20716

What's your moniker over there?

[Cardinal]

Cardinal, what's funnier is that judging from the way that the mods there routinely evade questions, you would think PP was being serious!

:cloud9: From the comments, I thought he WAS being serious,  as his comments line up in content with that remark!   :grin: Wow.......