Im still not convinced by Romans 5 or 1 Cor :15

[seirwyn]

When read along with Daniel 12.2 and John 5:29 and Acts 24:15, 1 cor 15:22 seems to be saying that everyone, including the unrighteous will come alive so it isnt much hope. The passages in Romans could be interpreted as 'many have died in Adam but life is now offered to many.' But then he does say 'the many are to be made righteous' not 'can be made righteous'
Verses 15 to 18 seem to be talking about life only for those who accept it, so in effect life is brought to humanity but they dont neccesarily accept it. But the second half of verse 18 says 'so are the many to be made upright.' This may just be a rephrasing of the previous verses but it looks like 'the many' i.e. humanity, are 'to be made righteous' i.e. at some point in the future. (after their punishment maybe?)
Why would Paul use 'the many' if the truth is that only a tiny proportion of humanity will be saved?
Any thoughts on this?

[Doc]

When read along with Daniel 12.2 and John 5:29 and Acts 24:15, 1 cor 15:22 seems to be saying that everyone, including the unrighteous will come alive so it isnt much hope. The passages in Romans could be interpreted as 'many have died in Adam but life is now offered to many.' But then he does say 'the many are to be made righteous' not 'can be made righteous'
Verses 15 to 18 seem to be talking about life only for those who accept it, so in effect life is brought to humanity but they dont neccesarily accept it. But the second half of verse 18 says 'so are the many to be made upright.' This may just be a rephrasing of the previous verses but it looks like 'the many' i.e. humanity, are 'to be made righteous' i.e. at some point in the future. (after their punishment maybe?)
Why would Paul use 'the many' if the truth is that only a tiny proportion of humanity will be saved?
Any thoughts on this?

How many have died in Adam? All So how many are 'offered' life? All.

Verses 15-18 probably are talking about life 'only for those who accept it', but your clue for how many will ultimately accept it is right in front of your nose; you even typed it above... "...then he does say 'the many are to be made righteous' not 'can be made righteous" and "...the second half of verse 18 says 'so are the many to be made upright.'"

There's your answer, IMO. :thumbsup:

[rosered]

When read along with Daniel 12.2 and John 5:29 and Acts 24:15, 1 cor 15:22 seems to be saying that everyone, including the unrighteous will come alive so it isnt much hope. The passages in Romans could be interpreted as 'many have died in Adam but life is now offered to many.' But then he does say 'the many are to be made righteous' not 'can be made righteous'
Verses 15 to 18 seem to be talking about life only for those who accept it, so in effect life is brought to humanity but they dont neccesarily accept it. But the second half of verse 18 says 'so are the many to be made upright.' This may just be a rephrasing of the previous verses but it looks like 'the many' i.e. humanity, are 'to be made righteous' i.e. at some point in the future. (after their punishment maybe?)
Why would Paul use 'the many' if the truth is that only a tiny proportion of humanity will be saved?
Any thoughts on this?

 Hi Seirwyn
 I dont know  it all about everything and have  some things within me that are not resolved   and settled   perfectly either .
 but I do  understand that many will come  at different times
 before and after judgment   that being the sole purpose of the  1000 year reign  of Christ  destroying the last enemy death
 they become priests to God  and Christ  this great work  is already in progress  dont you think ?
 I do not think it is a literal time  , because Adam was in a deep sleep
it  never says he was  awakened
  that is why I  believe that  we are awakened  one by one  in an order that God wills
 that no man knows  or angels

it takes all the WORD  bro to  have this settled within you and  I  believe God will do as He promises
 
 Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
 

  there are the Jews and Gentiles  they make up ALL mankind
now is the time  for all  :HeartThrob:
   :HeartThrob:

[claypot]

Hey Rose, you wrote....

I do not think it is a literal time  , because Adam was in a deep sleep
it  never says he was  awakened

Can you expand on this for me? I am genuinely intrigued.

cp

[Pierac]

When read along with Daniel 12.2 and John 5:29 and Acts 24:15, 1 cor 15:22 seems to be saying that everyone, including the unrighteous will come alive so it isnt much hope. The passages in Romans could be interpreted as 'many have died in Adam but life is now offered to many.' But then he does say 'the many are to be made righteous' not 'can be made righteous'
Verses 15 to 18 seem to be talking about life only for those who accept it, so in effect life is brought to humanity but they dont neccesarily accept it. But the second half of verse 18 says 'so are the many to be made upright.' This may just be a rephrasing of the previous verses but it looks like 'the many' i.e. humanity, are 'to be made righteous' i.e. at some point in the future. (after their punishment maybe?)

Why would Paul use 'the many' if the truth is that only a tiny proportion of humanity will be saved?

Any thoughts on this?

Seirwyn, we don't get to choose which resurrection we are in...

Mat 22:14  "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Joh 6:65  And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Eph 1:11  also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

2Th 2:13  But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


Now let's see this in action...

Mark 4:1  He began to teach again by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat in the sea and sat down; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land.... Mar 4:10  And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11  And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12  so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Why did Jesus speak to the crowd when he knew all along they were going to be hardened like Pharaoh , Paul explains...

Rom 11:7  What then? What Israel is seeking,[the Messiah] it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

Why were they hardened, where their sins any greater than yours or ours? Of course not!

Rom 11:12  Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! ... 15  For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Ever wonder why Satan still roams the earth for thousands of years after his defeat on the cross?

Mar 4:15  "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.

Why?
"For many are called, but few are chosen."


Rom 16  So then it  depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

You will need to study the scriptures without church glasses, as it's tradition prevents you from seeing Gods love for all humanity.

Paul

[rosered]

Hey Rose, you wrote....

I do not think it is a literal time  , because Adam was in a deep sleep
it  never says he was  awakened

Can you expand on this for me? I am genuinely intrigued.

cp

  Hi Cp, I will try to bro .

  I believe we are   like dead to God till the Lord comes to wake us out of sleep  and it is different  for many  people at differnt  times  , some are called from the womb  others are  purposed in God
there is alot of confusion   when  some call sleep  death and death sleep  , but to  me     they both are a place of not knowing  , the little girl/maiden  that died [ in Adam all die not complete/ perfect ]

  and the Lord said she was not dead but sleeps matt 9;24,mark 5;39 luke 8:50 He Raised her up and  she was made  whole , see what I mean ?  it is always  at a appointed time  , but  the times are individualy  called /awakened to God  for His will /purpose a work /miracle /sign

      Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept and he took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh instead thereof

  sleep

  a spirit  of slumber

1) to sleep, be asleep

a) (Qal) to sleep, go to sleep, be asleep

b) (Niphal)

1) to remain a long time, be stored up

2) to be festering (of leprosy)

c) (Piel) to cause to sleep, entice to sleep


the Glory of God is also   the power to  raise the dead / giving life to the dead and  all Live to Him though Jesus Christ /Word of God  and  His Spirit  working together as One

I hope this helps some how , I do  not explain things well  :sigh:
 

  But hope you can see  some of what I am saying

  :HeartThrob:

[claypot]

Hey Rose, you wrote....

I do not think it is a literal time  , because Adam was in a deep sleep
it  never says he was  awakened

Can you expand on this for me? I am genuinely intrigued.

cp

  Hi Cp, I will try to bro .

  I believe we are   like dead to God till the Lord comes to wake us out of sleep  and it is different  for many  people at differnt  times  , some are called from the womb  others are  purposed in God
there is alot of confusion   when  some call sleep  death and death sleep  , but to  me     they both are a place of not knowing  , the little girl/maiden  that died [ in Adam all die not complete/ perfect ]

  and the Lord said she was not dead but sleeps matt 9;24,mark 5;39 luke 8:50 He Raised her up and  she was made  whole , see what I mean ?  it is always  at a appointed time  , but  the times are individualy  called /awakened to God  for His will /purpose a work /miracle /sign

      Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept and he took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh instead thereof

  sleep

  a spirit  of slumber

1) to sleep, be asleep

a) (Qal) to sleep, go to sleep, be asleep

b) (Niphal)

1) to remain a long time, be stored up

2) to be festering (of leprosy)

c) (Piel) to cause to sleep, entice to sleep


the Glory of God is also   the power to  raise the dead / giving life to the dead and  all Live to Him though Jesus Christ /Word of God  and  His Spirit  working together as One

I hope this helps some how , I do  not explain things well  :sigh:
 

  But hope you can see  some of what I am saying

  :HeartThrob:

Rose, I must be in the right place at the right time because your words are golden to me. Over in the Spiritual/Natural thread Nathan said something about Adam's deep sleep too and it awoke something in me. Makes sense, you explained it well. To me it helps in seeing this work of God. God is making us in His image. It is not a 'make us in His image then whoooops, remake this one and that one, whoops, this one won't work out, trash it and on and on' process. This intelligence we call God I think is making something (us) in His image and it is a well thought out process that goes from start to finish.

Your sleep ideas help me here because it kind of explains to me that all we people do in what we call the here and now is done in a sleep state of being. Man, Rose, could we be dreaming all this madness up? All the evil especially? Mans inhumanity to man is my worst nightmare and biggest obstruction in my relationship with God. Could this be but a dream, a nightmare? Not sure even if it is, if that explanation would help but I will think on it.

A small, but big thing to me is what we call God. The word 'God'. It is watered down IMO. It helps me to think about who is commonly called God, as a super intelligent being. A majorly awesome essence that is thinking us into existence. Sure I incorporate an actual personality, a feeling Being into this description too.

Wow, I did not plan to write so much.

Thanks again for your explanation. I'm off to read it again and please add more as you can.

cp

[claypot]

Rose, you wrote......

I believe we are   like dead to God till the Lord comes to wake us out of sleep  and it is different  for many  people at differnt  times..... 

I think of Pauls explanation of his awakening.....When God felt like it He revealed His Son in me. gala1.15 God ran downstairs and woke Paul up! Get out of bed you lazy bums I often say to my kids (in a affectionate way I must say) but it is effective. Wake up they do!

cp

[rosered]

Rose, I must be in the right place at the right time because your words are golden to me. Over in the Spiritual/Natural thread Nathan said something about Adam's deep sleep too and it awoke something in me. Makes sense, you explained it well. To me it helps in seeing this work of God. God is making us in His image. It is not a 'make us in His image then whoooops, remake this one and that one, whoops, this one won't work out, trash it and on and on' process. This intelligence we call God I think is making something (us) in His image and it is a well thought out process that goes from start to finish.

  Thanks Cp  for your kind words
  You said something here that struck a chord in me ..
  the  error/sin  of mankind   seems to  result  in making God into mans Image   and  the Truth is  it is the opposite in fact!  :mblush:
  man is to be made into Gods Image / Jesus Christ  being the pattern
Son ,original and fist of His kind [firstfruits]

   Can you  tell I was reading  Daniel 3 and 4 ,5  last night hee hee  :HeartThrob:

[Doc]

One of my favorite quotes is from Brennan Manning, who said this about how we mistakenly view God: "God made man in his image, and we returned the favor!"  :icon_jokercolor:

We have to be sooo careful not to make God in our image...  :winkgrin:

[rosered]

One of my favorite quotes is from Brennan Manning, who said this about how we mistakenly view God: "God made man in his image, and we returned the favor!"  :icon_jokercolor:

We have to be sooo careful not to make God in our image...  :winkgrin:

:thumbsup:    sounds right  :HeartThrob:



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.


Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,



Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:


Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 
not so much talking about men with men   here as much as   perverting the truth and worshiping one andother  looking to one another for  truth intimatly   when it is the Lord God whom we should look to for union
  with .

  that is how I have seen  this  for some time now .....

  :HeartThrob:

[lookingup]

 when i was first introduced to the idea of reconcilliation of all, i too found all the standard verses usually used, (1 tim 4:10) and so on. But when i reread this passage of scripture without the "churchianity" glasses on, this is what God used on me to take a few scales from my eyes.         Luke 3:4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT. 5 'EVERY RAVINE WILL BE FILLED, AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND HILL WILL BE BROUGHT  LOW; THE CROOKED WILL BECOME STRAIGHT, AND THE ROUGH ROADS SMOOTH; 6 AND  ALL FLESH  WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.' "

              i don't see how the doom and gloom preachers in the ET mindset can get around this particular piece of info in the scriptures.

              It does strike me kinda funny that all the years i was stuck in churchianity i cannot recall ever hearing this particular passage from the pulit. Now however i think i may know why
                       Gods' peace

                                     Henry

[jabcat]

Yep, explain it away, ignore it, or just not be able to see it...I've done it all, and it's the way of orthodoxy.  Thanks be to God for what little sight (through a glass darkly) that we do have   :notworthy:.

[reFORMer]

The Hindus teach we are in God's dream.  The Bible says we are in Adam's dream.  Adam was only in the image of God.  When manifested to us is Jesus, the Word Who is the Image and Likeness of God, The Holy Spirit says, "Awake, You that sleep; and Christ will give you light."  Where is God?  He's being poured out on ALL flesh.

Psalm 17:13-15...
13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:
14 From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes.
15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Awake up, my glory; awake, psaltery and harp: I myself will awake early. (Ps 57:8 and similarly, Ps 108:2)

"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." (Ps 139:8)  Behold Him!  He is "The lowliest of All," upholding ALL who fall, yea, upholding all things!  "...when I awake, I am still with thee." (Ps 139:18)

TAKE THE WINGS OF THE MORNING (Ps 139:9)