I'd like your thoughts on this.

[Doc]

Hi Guys. I have a friend who I think I have mostly convinced about UR, but he's somewhat on the fence still. He has a lot of respect for NT Wright (as do I, in many ways on a number of subjects), and he sent me this article for consideration.

Wright complains that sometimes he is "accused" of being a universalist, but maintains that he is no such thing. Wright talks a bit about his particular view in this article, so I'd like your commentary on it. Pick away! (In particular, the last paragraph of the article, entitled "hell". I actually more or less agreed with Wright up to that point.

http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Rethinking_Tradition.htm

[Doc]

Perhaps this would be more appropriate in the Judgement and punishments , or "arguments against..." section?   :dontknow:

[Paul Hazelwood]

No offence to the writer, but I think he is basically unsure of any conclusion.

It appears he sways more to annhiliation though.   But, perhaps he in his own conscience is taking the "better safe than sorry" road by pointing out what he does then saying ultimatly it is up to God. Even then appears to shy away from giving as much credibilioty to the notion that all men will be redeemed.

[legoman]

Hi Doc,

I quickly read the last section on "hell".

It seems that N.T. Wright is assuming we have a free will.  I don't want to get into a big free will debate.  Let me just quickly state my opinion (which I believe is confirmed by scripture):  we have a will and we make choices but those choices are all caused by circumstances, desire, envrionment, and experience.  We have a caused will, not a free will.

This is what he presents as the universalist case:

"In fact, I think the universalist case — which normally turns on God having all the time in the world, after the death of unbelievers, to go on putting the gospel to them from different angles until at last they accept it"

This makes it sound like God could be sitting around almost forever thinking up new ways of showing the gospel, hoping against hope until that last hold-out finally converts of their own free will.  While he could take all the time in eternity if he wanted to to do this, he doesn't have to.

The fact of the matter is that God knows exactly what makes each of us tick (since he personally created each of us as individuals) - and he knows exactly what it will take for each person to willingly confess and believe.  But that will not happen until God's appointed time - each person must go through their own appointed trials and tribulations before God will open their eyes to the truth.  And then when God has opened their eyes, they will willingly believe.

Think about what led you to Christ and belief in UR.  Usually there are a number of large events (and many smaller events) in your life that ultimately led you to that point.  Were those events random chance, or were they preordained by God - all leading up to the moment when God preordained your eyes would open and learn the truth?

IMHO I believe it will work the same way for those in the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is spiritual - it may be just another series of trials and tribulations that will ultimately lead to the individual's eyes being opened and then confessing that Jesus is their savior.

Everything will go according to God's plan, right down to the last detail.  Everyone has their appointed time to be saved, either in this life or in the lake of fire.

Cheers,
Legoman

[YoungYuni]

Hiya,

I do not see that he unsure in his conclusion.

What I see is perhaps a definition of universalism that is not shared universally.

What I mean by this is, he believes in a hell and loss for the wicked.

We can read much in what he has omitted, and that is why it appears he is unsure of his conclusion.

He does not say that this punishment is infinite in duration, but not everyone will be saved this punishment.

That is a perfectly acceptable conclusion which is what biblical universalism holds to.

For most in biblical universalism, they do not call themselves universalists.

The article opened more doors to question than closed them.

:icon_king: :icon_queen:

[Doc]

No offence to the writer, but I think he is basically unsure of any conclusion.

It appears he sways more to annhiliation though.   But, perhaps he in his own conscience is taking the "better safe than sorry" road by pointing out what he does then saying ultimatly it is up to God. Even then appears to shy away from giving as much credibilioty to the notion that all men will be redeemed.

Yeah, I got those impressions as well. It's interesting to note that he seems to be saying that it's both "up to God" and "up to us". It appears that he is some form of conditionalist.

[Doc]

Hi Doc,

I quickly read the last section on "hell".

It seems that N.T. Wright is assuming we have a free will.  I don't want to get into a big free will debate.  Let me just quickly state my opinion (which I believe is confirmed by scripture):  we have a will and we make choices but those choices are all caused by circumstances, desire, envrionment, and experience.  We have a caused will, not a free will.

This is what he presents as the universalist case:

"In fact, I think the universalist case — which normally turns on God having all the time in the world, after the death of unbelievers, to go on putting the gospel to them from different angles until at last they accept it"

This makes it sound like God could be sitting around almost forever thinking up new ways of showing the gospel, hoping against hope until that last hold-out finally converts of their own free will.  While he could take all the time in eternity if he wanted to to do this, he doesn't have to.

The fact of the matter is that God knows exactly what makes each of us tick (since he personally created each of us as individuals) - and he knows exactly what it will take for each person to willingly confess and believe.  But that will not happen until God's appointed time - each person must go through their own appointed trials and tribulations before God will open their eyes to the truth.  And then when God has opened their eyes, they will willingly believe.

Think about what led you to Christ and belief in UR.  Usually there are a number of large events (and many smaller events) in your life that ultimately led you to that point.  Were those events random chance, or were they preordained by God - all leading up to the moment when God preordained your eyes would open and learn the truth?

IMHO I believe it will work the same way for those in the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is spiritual - it may be just another series of trials and tribulations that will ultimately lead to the individual's eyes being opened and then confessing that Jesus is their savior.

Everything will go according to God's plan, right down to the last detail.  Everyone has their appointed time to be saved, either in this life or in the lake of fire.

Cheers,
Legoman

Good thoughts, legoman; thanks.

For those of you unfamiliar with N.T. Wright, he is in general no lightweight, theologically speaking. He is currently the Bishop of Durham and is the former canon theologian for Westminster Abbey.

Anyone else?

[Doc]

Hiya,

I do not see that he unsure in his conclusion.

What I see is perhaps a definition of universalism that is not shared universally.

What I mean by this is, he believes in a hell and loss for the wicked.

We can read much in what he has omitted, and that is why it appears he is unsure of his conclusion.

He does not say that this punishment is infinite in duration, but not everyone will be saved this punishment.

That is a perfectly acceptable conclusion which is what biblical universalism holds to.

For most in biblical universalism, they do not call themselves universalists.

The article opened more doors to question than closed them.

:icon_king: :icon_queen:

He doesn't say that punishment is infinite in duration, but he does equate punishment with "hell". Which "hell"?
It is clear to me from statements he made in the article, that he is not a universalist of any name or stripe. For example, he claims it is possible for us to lose the image of God to the extent that we no longer bear it, and at some point, in an irrevocable manner. He also claims that universalism is overly optimistic and does not treat the problem of evil seriously enough.

That is not representative of any form of universalism; and sounds like "punishment" of infinite duration to me, even if he does not explicitly state it, and even if it is annihilation (which is infinite in result).

Thanks for your thoughts.

Keep 'em coming...

[YoungYuni]

Hiya,

Yes, I see the word irrevocable used.

Does he believe demons are souls that have degenerated irrevocably?

:winkgrin: :dontknow:

[Doc]

Hiya,

Yes, I see the word irrevocable used.

Does he believe demons are souls that have degenerated irrevocably?

:winkgrin: :dontknow:

I don't really know the answer to that, but I suspect he might...  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Hi Doc,

I quickly read the last section on "hell".

It seems that N.T. Wright is assuming we have a free will.  I don't want to get into a big free will debate.  Let me just quickly state my opinion (which I believe is confirmed by scripture):  we have a will and we make choices but those choices are all caused by circumstances, desire, envrionment, and experience.  We have a caused will, not a free will.

This is what he presents as the universalist case:

"In fact, I think the universalist case — which normally turns on God having all the time in the world, after the death of unbelievers, to go on putting the gospel to them from different angles until at last they accept it"

This makes it sound like God could be sitting around almost forever thinking up new ways of showing the gospel, hoping against hope until that last hold-out finally converts of their own free will.  While he could take all the time in eternity if he wanted to to do this, he doesn't have to.

The fact of the matter is that God knows exactly what makes each of us tick (since he personally created each of us as individuals) - and he knows exactly what it will take for each person to willingly confess and believe.  But that will not happen until God's appointed time - each person must go through their own appointed trials and tribulations before God will open their eyes to the truth.  And then when God has opened their eyes, they will willingly believe.

Think about what led you to Christ and belief in UR.  Usually there are a number of large events (and many smaller events) in your life that ultimately led you to that point.  Were those events random chance, or were they preordained by God - all leading up to the moment when God preordained your eyes would open and learn the truth?

IMHO I believe it will work the same way for those in the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is spiritual - it may be just another series of trials and tribulations that will ultimately lead to the individual's eyes being opened and then confessing that Jesus is their savior.

Everything will go according to God's plan, right down to the last detail.  Everyone has their appointed time to be saved, either in this life or in the lake of fire.

Cheers,
Legoman

What he said  :happygrin:.  I also personally wonder if the Lake of Fire may be God's DIRECT presence...which as far I know, no man has of yet been exposed to.  My  :2c:.

[Nathan]

I believe the lake of fire "is" God himself.  He "is" never ending and my life in him will be the same.  Perhaps those of us who have acknowledged his son experience the lake of fire through the filtering of the cross . .and those that don't are cast into the same lake of fire and the result is the same as is with us, but without the cross, they bear the pain and suffering that Christ took on our behalf.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I originally intended to say.  I'm leaving it though cuz I like what it says.

What I 'wanted' to say was, I think there is to much emphasis this guy puts on the defeated enemy.  He wants to raise the awareness of the power of evil and for us to be cautious of it and respect it . . .seems to me Jesus wasn't concerned about evil gettin on him.  He could go to the darkest places of death and send demons scattering . . .turning the tables in the temple is a good example of that :laughing7:  In the natural, the clean get dirty from that which is dirty . .but in the kingdom of heaven, everything is reversed . .the dirty get clean by that which is clean.

and it passed down to the disciples . . .Peter's shadow . . prayer cloths even that I "think" were either prayed on or something by Paul . .at any rate, evil appears and invokes fear on the hearts of men enough on it's own, it doesn't need our help to inflate it into something even bigger.  I think that was the underlying message that came through at the end for me. 

Pursue Christ . . walk "in the light" . .let the darkness go where it may. :beach:

[Doc]

I believe the lake of fire "is" God himself.  He "is" never ending and my life in him will be the same.  Perhaps those of us who have acknowledged his son experience the lake of fire through the filtering of the cross . .and those that don't are cast into the same lake of fire and the result is the same as is with us, but without the cross, they bear the pain and suffering that Christ took on our behalf.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I originally intended to say.  I'm leaving it though cuz I like what it says.

What I 'wanted' to say was, I think there is to much emphasis this guy puts on the defeated enemy.  He wants to raise the awareness of the power of evil and for us to be cautious of it and respect it . . .seems to me Jesus wasn't concerned about evil gettin on him.  He could go to the darkest places of death and send demons scattering . . .turning the tables in the temple is a good example of that :laughing7:  In the natural, the clean get dirty from that which is dirty . .but in the kingdom of heaven, everything is reversed . .the dirty get clean by that which is clean.

and it passed down to the disciples . . .Peter's shadow . . prayer cloths even that I "think" were either prayed on or something by Paul . .at any rate, evil appears and invokes fear on the hearts of men enough on it's own, it doesn't need our help to inflate it into something even bigger.  I think that was the underlying message that came through at the end for me. 

Pursue Christ . . walk "in the light" . .let the darkness go where it may. :beach:

I hadn't really though about that aspect, but yeah; it does seem that these guys give evil more power than it really has (at least in the light of the gospel), which is easy to do, because we deal with it daily right now. But somehow, in "treating evil seriously enough" they end up giving it more credit than is due...

[YoungYuni]

Hiya,

Concerning evil, it is not what most believe it to be.

According to Scripture, evil is created and sustained by God.

When I say sustained, I mean that God is the one in control and so it exists only by His will even though it is diametrically opposed to His good.

How then can evil not be as powerful?

I do not see him giving evil more power than it has.

I see he has not answered the question.

:laughing7: :happygrin:

[Nathan]

Hiya,

Concerning evil, it is not what most believe it to be.

According to Scripture, evil is created and sustained by God.

When I say sustained, I mean that God is the one in control and so it exists only by His will even though it is diametrically opposed to His good.

How then can evil not be as powerful?

I do not see him giving evil more power than it has.

I see he has not answered the question.

:laughing7: :happygrin:

It invokes fear . .fear is not of God.

[Doc]

Hiya,

Concerning evil, it is not what most believe it to be.

According to Scripture, evil is created and sustained by God.

When I say sustained, I mean that God is the one in control and so it exists only by His will even though it is diametrically opposed to His good.

How then can evil not be as powerful?

I do not see him giving evil more power than it has.

I see he has not answered the question.

:laughing7: :happygrin:

I'm familiar with the Isaiah passage, but be careful you don't drift into dualistic zoroastrianism...

[YoungYuni]

It invokes fear . .fear is not of God.

Hiya,

It actually does not, that is a presumption, not a fact.

The fact is, people fear God because they do not know Who He is, and what He does.

That does not mean God is fear or invokes fear.

God's people perish because of their lack of knowledge.

When one understands the Truth, the Truth does set you free.

:icon_queen: :icon_king:

[YoungYuni]

I'm familiar with the Isaiah passage, but be careful you don't drift into dualistic zoroastrianism...

Hiya,

I am most definitely far from dualistic zoroastianism.

If you thought that from what I wrote, I have much to say to you concerning the reality of good and evil and their purpose in creation.

God is in control of all things, whether a person wants to admit it or not, He purposed evil with a pure intention in mind.

Evil is a real possibility and a danger to all who fall into it's path.

God intended evil to operate in that manner for a purpose.

It is the lack of knowledge of the purpose which invokes fear.

:icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:

[legoman]

I agree YY.

If God is in control of all things (and we know he is), then he is also in control of evil.

He uses evil for his good purposes.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


I actually find it comforting to know there is a purpose for all the evil in the world, even if I don't understand it.


Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.


That is humbling.

Legoman

[legoman]

I believe the lake of fire "is" God himself.  He "is" never ending and my life in him will be the same.  Perhaps those of us who have acknowledged his son experience the lake of fire through the filtering of the cross . .and those that don't are cast into the same lake of fire and the result is the same as is with us, but without the cross, they bear the pain and suffering that Christ took on our behalf.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I originally intended to say.  I'm leaving it though cuz I like what it says.

What I 'wanted' to say was, I think there is to much emphasis this guy puts on the defeated enemy.  He wants to raise the awareness of the power of evil and for us to be cautious of it and respect it . . .seems to me Jesus wasn't concerned about evil gettin on him.  He could go to the darkest places of death and send demons scattering . . .turning the tables in the temple is a good example of that :laughing7:  In the natural, the clean get dirty from that which is dirty . .but in the kingdom of heaven, everything is reversed . .the dirty get clean by that which is clean.

and it passed down to the disciples . . .Peter's shadow . . prayer cloths even that I "think" were either prayed on or something by Paul . .at any rate, evil appears and invokes fear on the hearts of men enough on it's own, it doesn't need our help to inflate it into something even bigger.  I think that was the underlying message that came through at the end for me. 

Pursue Christ . . walk "in the light" . .let the darkness go where it may. :beach:

Yes I agree with you guys about the lake of fire - it is probably God's consuming fire.  It may also include the "little fire's" of all the priests and kings and lords that reign with Christ during the millenium - though I'm not sure on that yet.

But I think Martin pointed it out in another thread - just what do you think we will be doing in the millenium if we are one of the few righteous ones that gets to reign with Christ?  Helping and teaching everyone else of course so that they will become saved too!

Legoman

[legoman]

Hi Doc,

I quickly read the last section on "hell".

It seems that N.T. Wright is assuming we have a free will.  I don't want to get into a big free will debate.  Let me just quickly state my opinion (which I believe is confirmed by scripture):  we have a will and we make choices but those choices are all caused by circumstances, desire, envrionment, and experience.  We have a caused will, not a free will.

This is what he presents as the universalist case:

"In fact, I think the universalist case — which normally turns on God having all the time in the world, after the death of unbelievers, to go on putting the gospel to them from different angles until at last they accept it"

This makes it sound like God could be sitting around almost forever thinking up new ways of showing the gospel, hoping against hope until that last hold-out finally converts of their own free will.  While he could take all the time in eternity if he wanted to to do this, he doesn't have to.

The fact of the matter is that God knows exactly what makes each of us tick (since he personally created each of us as individuals) - and he knows exactly what it will take for each person to willingly confess and believe.  But that will not happen until God's appointed time - each person must go through their own appointed trials and tribulations before God will open their eyes to the truth.  And then when God has opened their eyes, they will willingly believe.

Think about what led you to Christ and belief in UR.  Usually there are a number of large events (and many smaller events) in your life that ultimately led you to that point.  Were those events random chance, or were they preordained by God - all leading up to the moment when God preordained your eyes would open and learn the truth?

IMHO I believe it will work the same way for those in the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is spiritual - it may be just another series of trials and tribulations that will ultimately lead to the individual's eyes being opened and then confessing that Jesus is their savior.

Everything will go according to God's plan, right down to the last detail.  Everyone has their appointed time to be saved, either in this life or in the lake of fire.

Cheers,
Legoman

What he said  :happygrin:.  I also personally wonder if the Lake of Fire may be God's DIRECT presence...which as far I know, no man has of yet been exposed to.  My  :2c:.

You know after months of posting on another "hostile" Christian board, it is such a relief and a pleasant experience to have someone actually agree and get what you are saying.

Thanks!

Legoman

[YoungYuni]

Hiya Nathan,

I may not have understood what you said invokes fear.

Please clarify.

Thanks!!!!

:cloud9: :mblush:

[Nathan]

My response was to the idea that if God created it, then the creation is as powerful as God.  I disagree with that on many levels.  God created the tree of knowledge . .but Adam was instructed to leave it alone . . . just because it's created by God doesn't mean that we should treat it as "powerful" as God.  God created Eve by Adam's rib . .but Adam was to have authority over her.

God created man, but man is not equally powerful as God . . .for me it's the same with evil.  Whether God created it or not, it's not anything I really need to be concerned with if I'm pursuing Christ.  That was the point I was trying to make with that.  Seek ye "first" the kingdom of God . . .make that the "chief" objective and everything else will take care of itself.

Maybe it's just me, I feel sort of a check, like a misplacement of priority when the topic of a person is focussed on the negative of anything.  God created night, but the day is to rule over the night.  Time is measured with light, speed is measured by light . . . darkness is actually a temporary thing anyway.  As is evil and all of that.  It's all been defeated, but yet theologians seem  to want to resurrect it again by warning everyone of how great it's powers are . . . I just disagree with the concept is all.

[Paul Hazelwood]

No offence to the writer, but I think he is basically unsure of any conclusion.

It appears he sways more to annhiliation though.   But, perhaps he in his own conscience is taking the "better safe than sorry" road by pointing out what he does then saying ultimatly it is up to God. Even then appears to shy away from giving as much credibilioty to the notion that all men will be redeemed.

Yeah, I got those impressions as well. It's interesting to note that he seems to be saying that it's both "up to God" and "up to us". It appears that he is some form of conditionalist.

That is one of the difficulities.  Technically it is conditional, it does require us to be a part of the equation.  What gets lost is that the conditions will always be met due to the fact that the conditions are met, but not "BECAUSE" of us.

It is interesting to me how the word because is so simple in scripture.  I was accused by a person for using "because" like a child who is asked why they did that and just answers "because".

The scripture  1 John 4:19 is so simple.

1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

The greek word translated to "because" or sometimes "for" means causative.


So to me, what could keep God from causing us to love him?

[rosered]

Hi Doc,

I quickly read the last section on "hell".

It seems that N.T. Wright is assuming we have a free will.  I don't want to get into a big free will debate.  Let me just quickly state my opinion (which I believe is confirmed by scripture):  we have a will and we make choices but those choices are all caused by circumstances, desire, envrionment, and experience.  We have a caused will, not a free will.

This is what he presents as the universalist case:

"In fact, I think the universalist case — which normally turns on God having all the time in the world, after the death of unbelievers, to go on putting the gospel to them from different angles until at last they accept it"

This makes it sound like God could be sitting around almost forever thinking up new ways of showing the gospel, hoping against hope until that last hold-out finally converts of their own free will.  While he could take all the time in eternity if he wanted to to do this, he doesn't have to.

The fact of the matter is that God knows exactly what makes each of us tick (since he personally created each of us as individuals) - and he knows exactly what it will take for each person to willingly confess and believe.  But that will not happen until God's appointed time - each person must go through their own appointed trials and tribulations before God will open their eyes to the truth.  And then when God has opened their eyes, they will willingly believe.

Think about what led you to Christ and belief in UR.  Usually there are a number of large events (and many smaller events) in your life that ultimately led you to that point.  Were those events random chance, or were they preordained by God - all leading up to the moment when God preordained your eyes would open and learn the truth?

IMHO I believe it will work the same way for those in the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is spiritual - it may be just another series of trials and tribulations that will ultimately lead to the individual's eyes being opened and then confessing that Jesus is their savior.

Everything will go according to God's plan, right down to the last detail.  Everyone has their appointed time to be saved, either in this life or in the lake of fire.

Cheers,
Legoman

What he said  :happygrin:.  I also personally wonder if the Lake of Fire may be God's DIRECT presence...which as far I know, no man has of yet been exposed to.  My  :2c:.

that is profound  Jabcat :thumbsup: , Honestly I can see this as being True

  what if within God/Fire   we are changed ?



And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

Deu 5:25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.


Deu 5:26 For who [is there of] all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we [have], and lived?