Matt 7:21-23 "I never knew you"

[NinjaWizards777]

 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him

Im intresting to see how universalists see this verse

[firstborn888]

From "Bible threatenings explained"

Much of what Jesus had to say dealt with the coming fall of Jerusalem and the entire Jewish system in 70 AD and the expansion of the Kingdom to include the Gentiles.  Jesus himself shows that the application was confined to those to whom he was speaking.

"Lord" (they say) "we have eaten and drunk in your presence and you have taught in our streets." and "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out."

The words apply entirely to those who had heard him speak in their streets, namely the Jews.  The Jew's advantages were about to be taken away and given to the Gentiles.  The Gentiles were to enter the kingdom by faith with faithful Abraham while the Jews were thrust out. The weeping and gnashing of teeth represents their rage which was aggravated by their dislike of the Gentiles. 

[70sevens]

"I never knew you"

I am sure that  this word will be spoken to the following believers,
who are saying like this: :

"Lord, Lord, I am prophesying in your name that there will be no ET,
and all men will be saved eventually regardless of their faith."
"Lord, I pray for many people and they are being healed."

without doing the will of the Father.

What is the will of the Father?
If they do not  know what it is, then it is apparent they are not doing the will of the Father.
And they will be away from Jesus, according to the Scripture.

[NinjaWizards777]

I can see how it may only apply to the people that heard him speak...but then what is the "day" he talks about when he says "on that DAY". Hes really not very clear about what day that is, whether its judgement day, the day hes crucified... :dontknow:

and people have diffrent intrepreations of what "the will of the father" is based on what they feel the holy spirit saying to them...and if so what kidnof seperation are we talking about here?

[Paul Hazelwood]

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him

Im intresting to see how universalists see this verse

To me I am finding just the simple facts stated in scripture, back to the basics so to speak.

It is saying that just saying words will not grant someone entry into the kingdom,  meaning,  over all in the picture of scripture all will enter the kingdom, but if we think it will be as easy as saying some words we are mistaken.

[rosered]

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him

Im intresting to see how universalists see this verse

To me I am finding just the simple facts stated in scripture, back to the basics so to speak.

It is saying that just saying words will not grant someone entry into the kingdom,  meaning,  over all in the picture of scripture all will enter the kingdom, but if we think it will be as easy as saying some words we are mistaken.

  to me it seems that they have to  be like little children , trusting  the Lord and  willing to  learn
  those who do not do this are deceived  , they have not entered yet , Christs words confirm this



And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,


Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.


   to be converted to  turn around  change ones mind ..

[Taffy]

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him

Im intresting to see how universalists see this verse

To me I am finding just the simple facts stated in scripture, back to the basics so to speak.

It is saying that just saying words will not grant someone entry into the kingdom,  meaning,  over all in the picture of scripture all will enter the kingdom, but if we think it will be as easy as saying some words we are mistaken.

I always thought the will of the Father was to Give Christ , Tis His Pleasure to do so.

Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:  


seems some pharisess also referred to Christ as Lord and Master ..Teacher perhaps....

A need to be reborn :icon_flower:

[70sevens]

There are two types of believers.

Type 1 :

They speak to Jesus, but they do not hear what Jesus says.
They pray to God, they do bible study in His name,
they are doing many things differently from what was taught in traditional churches.

Of course, they do not realize that they do not hear Jesus,
on the contrary they think they hear Jesus very well through Holy Spirit.
But its hallucination.
What they think Holy Spirit is evil(non-God) spirit made by themselves in fact.
That's why Jesus says here that they are evil(non-God)doers.

'On that day' is the time when those 'type 1' believers open their ears to Jesus' saying.
On that day, they will realize that the faith so far was nothing but evildoing.
This is the judgment of one's past(first) faith.
So that day can be the judgment day of the first.

[Hbr 10:9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first,
that he may establish the second.

Type 2 :

Blessed is the man who hears this judgment of Jesus while he is alive.
Because from that day on, he can clearly hear true Jesus and follow Him to enter the Kingdom.
When he enters the Kingdom, he will lead a life of Jesus, leading others to the Kingdom. 
And this is the loving neighbors as himself.
He will be the man who is doing the will of the Father.
This is the type 2 believer.

[MacPherson]

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him

Im intresting to see how universalists see this verse

That's universally (no pun intended) believed to simply be addressing false prophets and teachers, who exploit the name of Jesus for their own personal gain. They used the name as a word of power, but never had anything resembling an actual relationship with Jesus.

[jabcat]

From "Bible threatenings explained"

Much of what Jesus had to say dealt with the coming fall of Jerusalem and the entire Jewish system in 70 AD and the expansion of the Kingdom to include the Gentiles.  Jesus himself shows that the application was confined to those to whom he was speaking.

"Lord" (they say) "we have eaten and drunk in your presence and you have taught in our streets." and "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out."

The words apply entirely to those who had heard him speak in their streets, namely the Jews.  The Jew's advantages were about to be taken away and given to the Gentiles.  The Gentiles were to enter the kingdom by faith with faithful Abraham while the Jews were thrust out. The weeping and gnashing of teeth represents their rage which was aggravated by their dislike of the Gentiles. 

:thumbsup:  But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Mt. 15:24.

[70sevens]

Washing feet and lodging strangers would be evil,
if we do not meet Jesus and enter the Kingdom.
Because evil men cannot do good works, but evil works.

[Jer 13:23]
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?
then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

[Mat 7:17-18]
17/ Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18/ A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

[70sevens]

What what?


1. Natural

We ought to do washing feet and lodging strangers and help people in need.
We, as human being, all have natural and basic emotion of such.
I am doing so also.
However, when we think deep,
members of other religions and atheists even are doing so or aiming at it at least.
So we cannot say those deeds are Jesus specific. Agree?

In this world, there is no clear-cut standard that separates good from evil.
In general, good deeds are
love, joy, peace, donation, forgiveness, fast, prayer, etc.

evil deeds are
extortion, unjust, adultery, murder, fight, selfishness, etc.

confusions are
feticide, glbt, white lie, etc.

This standard, which is fixed, is the law.
And it is the world of natural.


2. Spiritual

But there is another standard, which is truth, that separates good from evil.
That is 'God' Himself or 'mind of God'.

All that are of God are good.
All that are not of God are evil.

The standard is 'mind of God', which is flexible.
And it is the world of 'spiritual'.

Believing in Jesus does not mean that we act good according to the case 1 above,
but is that we are to have the mind of God to see as God sees, to be spiritual so to speak.
So, if we want to say that we are Jesus believers,
then we should at least know that where we are heading for in Jesus.

If 'lodging stranger' is the absolute good,
then how could God condemn Esau
who ate red pottage out of extreme hunger.
How could God not allow food to Jesus for more than 40 days?

[Gen 25:30]
And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage;
for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom. 
[Heb 12:16]
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau,
who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

All the Scriptures sayings, including washing feet and lodging strangers,
should be read spiritual, not natural.

Do we know the spiritual meanings (God's mind) of those verses?

[claypot]

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him

I was haunted by these words for many years until I realized 2 things. God deals with us like a father and Jesus was talking to His disciples.

Jesus is condemning a very cocky attitude. He will have not have this kind of bondage keeping a hold of people. Sending a child to his room with a very stern reprimand is a most effective way of getting said child to see the errors of his ways.

Notice it doesn't say that Jesus is inferring that they go away from Him forever.

cp

[jabcat]

good points...I think we create confusion many times when we forget that much (if not all) of His earthly ministry was to the Jews...Jesus had us Gentiles in mind, as He spoke of "I have other sheep" that He would bring in, but we weren't really brought into the picture yet...until His crucifixion and resurrection...My  :2c:.

[claypot]

good points...I think we create confusion many times when we forget that much (if not all) of His earthly ministry was to the Jews...Jesus had us Gentiles in mind, as He spoke of "I have other sheep" that He would bring in, but we weren't really brought into the picture yet...until His crucifixion and resurrection...My  :2c:.

To go even further I would say Jesus' ministry is to the divine (Kingdom) within us. To me the Jews represent the divine in us, the faltering yet chosen of God in each person. People are not all bad, sinners yes, but not all bad. The Gentiles that are to be brought into the fold seem to me to be that which is naturally 'of God' in man. This individual goodness must be baptized in the divine (in Christ) to be worthy to be really called goodness.

Maybe I'm out to lunch here but thinking......

cp

[Nathan]

good points...I think we create confusion many times when we forget that much (if not all) of His earthly ministry was to the Jews...Jesus had us Gentiles in mind, as He spoke of "I have other sheep" that He would bring in, but we weren't really brought into the picture yet...until His crucifixion and resurrection...My  :2c:.

To go even further I would say Jesus' ministry is to the divine (Kingdom) within us. To me the Jews represent the divine in us, the faltering yet chosen of God in each person. People are not all bad, sinners yes, but not all bad. The Gentiles that are to be brought into the fold seem to me to be that which is naturally 'of God' in man. This individual goodness must be baptized in the divine (in Christ) to be worthy to be really called goodness.

Maybe I'm out to lunch here but thinking......

cp

Don't second guess yourself out of it my friend.  You are right on in my book.  Keep seeing things with inward perspectives and you'll do well.

[Doc]

Perhaps another way to look at this is: IIRC, whenever we see the phrase "kingdom of heaven" it means "reign of the heavens". In other words, not everyone who does works in His name will qualify to reign in the kingdom. Many are called, but few are chosen.

That doesn't adequately address the "depart from me" phraseology though. The warning to the Jews spoken to makes the best overall sense.

[jabcat]

Perhaps another way to look at this is: IIRC, whenever we see the phrase "kingdom of heaven" it means "reign of the heavens". In other words, not everyone who does works in His name will qualify to reign in the kingdom. Many are called, but few are chosen.

That doesn't adequately address the "depart from me" phraseology though. The warning to the Jews spoken to makes the best overall sense.

:thumbsup:

[claypot]

Nathan, you wrote...

Don't second guess yourself out of it my friend.  You are right on in my book.  Keep seeing things with inward perspectives and you'll do well.

I am grateful for the encouragment. You have made my day and I will heed your advice. Thanks, Brother.

cp

[NinjaWizards777]

I dont know...this whole concept of everyone gets to go to heaven eventually seems like just wishful thinking to me, no matter how much I pray for Gods answer on it it just seems like wishful thinking and trying to twist verses to mean somthing they dont seem to mean


i dont know...

[jabcat]

Ninja, maybe share some of the verses that seem to you to need twisting...someone here can probably help...many times it's either things have been mistranslated for many years so that's what's ingrained in us, and/or they've been taken out of context for so many years, that that's become what we see as truth...when many times, it's not, when scripture is a) accurately translated, b) rightly divided, and c) Spirit-revealed.

God's blessing, James.

[Nathan]

I dont know...this whole concept of everyone gets to go to heaven eventually seems like just wishful thinking to me, no matter how much I pray for Gods answer on it it just seems like wishful thinking and trying to twist verses to mean somthing they dont seem to mean


i dont know...

Do keep in mind bud, it's still a lake of fire.  Cleansing, yes, but it's still a place that ya don't want to have to go through.  Those that reject Christ aren't getting away scot free.  It's still a great price to be accounted for . . it's just not an eternal one as we've been duped it to be.

[jabcat]

Right...there's just too many things that keep happening AFTER judgment...IMO, much more involved in God's Big Plan than mainstream's die, immediately heaven or hell forever.

[claypot]

Right...there's just too many things that keep happening AFTER judgment...IMO, much more involved in God's Big Plan than mainstream's die, immediately heaven or hell forever.

Man, that's good, Jab. American Christianity stops way too short IMO too.

cp

[jabcat]

Thanks.  Love your name  :thumbsup:.  Cool.