Love

[rosered]

   I thought this was too good to pass by , so I made a new thread ,  I did not want to offend  others with Hi- jacking threads 
so  will you help and Join in ?
  thanks  rose

  Ps they are from James and Molly and Fire ...........
Paul does say in 1Cr 13:13 And though I bestow ALL my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity (agapē) it profiteth me nothing.

So one can give ALL and it profits them nothing in the doing of it without charity (agapē)

I have to recheck but was Peter the one who kept getting asked "do you love me"? I think the word the lord uses first was agapaō and Peter responded phileo until Peter was grieved when he asked him again as he used the word Phileo towards him the third time, something like that, I wonder if that can be connected because Peter affirmed his confidence that he if all would forsake him that he would not even if he should die for him in the gospels and ofcourse he fled, because it was written they all would and then denied knowing Jesus at all. That come after the proclamation that they had left all to follow him.
You know whats really neat though, theres two places where the word wretched is found (in the Lords rebuke in Revelation) and where Paul borrows the term and applies it to himself  charity"


G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
Yep and I used to believe it was the highest form of love in one sense so that would make my last post irrelevant, because even Jesus says in one place "The Father Phileo the Son" not just agapē or the other, I have the study on another forum and even I was like wow! God Phileos too  John 5:20
For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.

G5368
φιλέω
phileō
fil-eh'-o
From G5384; to be a friend to (fond of [an individual or an object]), that is, have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling; while G25 is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety: the two thus stand related very much as G2309 and G1014, or as G2372 and G3563 respectively; the former being chiefly of the heart and the latter of the head); specifically to kiss (as a mark of tenderness): - kiss, love.



This one is agapaō:


John 3:35
The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

wow! thanks Kimmy and  Molly thanks as well  ! 

  its good to see it ! I  thought of this verse.... 12 seesm  that I have read this in Revelation about the rod of Iron ..

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.


Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.


Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.


Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.


Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.


Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.


Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.



  They do appear to interchange, I seemed to take someones word for it (which is not really the norm for me) concerning the sermons on the highest love type deal  It still could be but I always attributed to God the highest order of the three, It appears as rare occurences but thats what I dug up too, let me recheck my study because there was another one that took me by surprise too 


  Molly   wrote . ....


14This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest [agapaō]
thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love [phileō]
thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest [agapaō]
thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love [phileō]
thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest [phileō]
thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest [phileō]
thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love [phileō]
thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep   20Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved [agapaō] following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?


--John 21
Agape = 1) brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence2) love feasts

These two are used "interchangeable" (see below)

Fireinfolding  wrote this .........
Phileo = 1) to love a) to approve of b) to like c) sanction d) to treat affectionately or kindly, to welcome, befriend 2) to show signs of lovea) to kiss 3) to be fond of doing a) be wont, use to do

Agapao1) of personsa) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly2) of thingsa) to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing


I was looking on the net utilizing it to study this, I found that the last two seem to be used "interchangeably. But when I clicked on "Charity" (Agape) its showing its root word is in Agapao, someone correct me if Im wrong here as Im using an online concordance, but you know how that can go 

1Cr 13:4 "Charity" (Agape) suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, etc.

Charity (Agape) http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=charity*+26

John 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the "love" (Agape) of God in you.

Love (Agape) http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=love*+26


Heres something interesting in regards to both "Phileo" and "Agapao" The following shows it to swing both ways and not something positive always.


2Peter 2:15 who "loved" (agapao) the wages of unrighteousness.

Romans 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and "love" (agapao) the other; or else he will ((hold to the one )) and ((despise the other)). Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Heb 1:9 Thou hast "loved" (agapao) righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

2Peter 4:10 Demas, because he "loved" (agapao) this world, has deserted me...

1John 2:15 "Love" (agapao) not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man "love" (agapao) the world, the "love" (Agape) of the Father is not in him.

The "love' (Agape) ~of Christ~ is ~the Agape~ of God

John 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the "love" (Agape) of God in you.

So hese two (Agapao and Agape) can  interchange as well

1John 4:8 He that "loveth" (Agapao) NOT ~knoweth not God~ for God is "love" (Agapao)

Same here...

1John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we "love" (agapao) one another, God dwelleth in us, and his "love" is perfected in us.


Its used interchangeably as both as positive and a negative.

We can  "love" (agapao) the praise of men "more than" the praise of God.

Heres two interesting examples,

John 21:20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus "loved" (agapao)


John 20:2 She came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus "loved" (phileo)

Again...

Hebrews 12:6  "The Lord disciplines those he "loves" (agapao) and he punishes"...

Revelation 3:19  "Those whom I "love" (phileo) I rebuke and discipline..."

Again...

Luke 11:43  ..."love" (agapao) the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the market-places."

Luke 20:46 "..."love" (phileo) to be greeted in the market-places and have the most important seats in the synagogues."


Here as well interestingly enough...

John 5:20  "For the Father "loves" (phileo) the Son and shows him all he does..."

John 16:27  "No, the Father himself "loves" (phileo) you because you have "loved" (phileo) me..."

Rev 3:19 "Those whom I "love" (phileo) I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent."

And ofcourse this one...

Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love (agape) me ""more than"" these?"

"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love (phileo) you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love (agape) me?"

He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love (phileo) you."

Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love (phileo) me?"

Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love (phileo) me?"

Peter hurt? because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love (phileo) me?"

He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love (phileo)you."

Jesus said, "Feed my sheep."

But Jesus does say this here...

John 16:27  "No, the Father himself "loves" (phileo) you because you have "loved" (phileo) me..."

The defining of love should come more through the scriptures and through word studies.

There are many more verses I'm using these specifically as they closely contrast each other (Agapao and Phileo). Showing mostly between these two how they both are used by the Lord to Peter, by the Lord in regards to the Father. That which is shown in relation to His love for us and for one another ...and to that which is "contrary" as well. Interesting really.


So Phileo and Agapao (love) seem to be used interchangeably.

Just posted this partial study


  james Rhodes  wrote  this 

I forgot to ask God whether I should post about this topic of "one spirit, one body," though I have mentioned it a couple times.  Maybe I would've just muddled over the idea in isolation.  It's too easily misunderstood.  It's touches the extremes of our understanding.

And about the Greek use of various words for love...it's interesting that English keeps hacking away at it with just one:  LOVE.  I think God is making a point.  The eros in marriage is the agapae of God and those three enjoy phileo:  God, man and woman.  There is not two senses in which the one points allegorically to the other.  In "The Song of Songs" human love is the language of Divine love.  Because there is a theological importance to carnal human love God included that theatrical in Sacred Scripture. We are to understand the sacred and the sexual are one.

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it..." (Ep 5:25)

"So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself." (Ep 5:28)

(Thanks in part to professor Daniel Lys in Le plus beau chant de la creation [1968])

[adam]

Hi, nice post and a good collection of Scriptures.  There a great book by CS Lewis called 'The four Loves' where he talks about the different types.

* Friendship , which typically requires we have at least something in common.

*Affection, which we can feel for any person we've known for a while, even if we have nothing in common. in fact we can feel with for animals or even places.

* Fillial love, the love between parents and children.

* divine love, the love between God and mankind.

Divine love is selfless, and obviously is related to filial love. But in some ways, especially in its intensitiy and intimacy, is most closely analogous to erotic love.

As you say Rose this is one of the alternative meanings of the Song of Solomon.


Tying this back in with UR, think briefly of someone you've been in Love with consigned for eternal torment, and then consider how strange it would be for God to Love someone with equal intensity and not do anything about it.

[rosered]

  wow , thanks  for the reply adam !
  yes that book sounds great by CF Lewis ,    Kim I believe knows is  books   , she wrote alot of this post ,

   This  post   above is a composition of many friends  speaking on a thread and I thought it to valueable to get lost in a  another place , so brought it out here .  Your input is  appreciated , thank you 
God bless . Rose  :icon_flower:
 

[adam]

Thanks Rose. Yes it was great to have all those Scriptures in one place, I might not have seen them otherwise as I dont always read the longer threads. God Bless. x

[rosered]

Thanks Rose. Yes it was great to have all those Scriptures in one place, I might not have seen them otherwise as I dont always read the longer threads. God Bless. x

Hi Adam , I do believe loveand faith  in God  is what  determines  the end and  going  into perfection  to me anyways  from what I have read of the scriptures ..


Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

 there is a Royal law and the Law of Liberty we are now under being the Children of the MOST HIGH     that  must be kept  I believe to even qualify

as  His own  
 faith and Love for God and others seems to be the   main requirements  

  God bless you adam and thanks so much for responding   ,, Rose  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

Hi Rose, I was just surprised to see that the Father Phileos the Son and not just Agapes Him.

It was a common teaching that God only Agapes, you guys remember that dont cha?  :grin:  Thats about all I did the study for at the time though I didnt see anything more revelatory in it then that. What are you getting from it?

You gonna share or you going to make us guess?  :grin:

:HeartThrob:

   HA HA  guess ! lol
  I know that a bond of frienship  and well as  Love [to chasten] as a Father  for His own children   is    probably  one of the greatest things  ever known or given ,  when you love unconditionally  as I do Believe the Fatehr does for His offspring   through Jesus Christ  the seed of incorruptible   promise   ,  nothing can destroy it not even death 
hell or any   thing formed against it
   
  I will look for scripture proofs sis , thanks for the response  love rose  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love [agapaō]  the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love [agapaō]  thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

--Mat 22


"love"

G25
ἀγαπάω
agapaō
ag-ap-ah'-o
Perhaps from ἄγαν agan (much; or compare [H5689]); to love (in a social or moral sense): - (be-) love (-ed). Compare G5368.



Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.


"love"

H157
אהב    אהב
'âhab 'âhêb
aw-hab', aw-habe'
A primitive root; to have affection for (sexually or otherwise): - (be-) love (-d, -ly, -r), like, friend.


Lev 19
18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

"love"

H157
אהב    אהב
'âhab  'âhêb

[Molly]

It's interesting that God requires us to give the same type of love  to our self and to our neighbor as we give to Him.

He's so cool!

[rosered]

 
  Thanks sis  for the scriptures and response
yes Molly  we are to love  our neighbour as ourself ,  that self love and  our neighbour just maybe the Lord 's Spirit  within  our walls of salvation  perhaps ? :winkgrin:  as well as  everyone the Lord puts  in our path 
example of  saul/paul the young man Annias  was to help him  see again as God give direction through His Holy Spirit ..
 
  right on God is cool and so Rocks !  :icon_flower:
  love rose  :HeartThrob:

[Nathan]

Hey Molly, I just wanted to tell you how great it has been reading your input.  Your word studies and definitions that assist with the explanations . . .you really flow well and I just wanted you to know you're work is greatly appreciated.

[Molly]

Hey Molly, I just wanted to tell you how great it has been reading your input.  Your word studies and definitions that assist with the explanations . . .you really flow well and I just wanted you to know you're work is greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Nathan.  It's nice to be appreciated.  :cloud9:

And, thank you for leading us into the promised land.

We have to start with natural, but unless it leads us to the spiritual, it profits nothing.

The temple is parabole--a parable, even though it really stood in the natural, in all its glory, until the way was shown into the most holy place by the Spirit.

He never desired sacrifice and burnt offering but our love--that's the heart of the Father.


Let the river run,
Let all the dreamers
Wake the nation.
Come, the new jerusalem.




18And when they saw him afar off, even before he came near unto them, they conspired against him to slay him.

19And they said one to another, Behold, this dreamer cometh.

--Gen 37

[Nathan]

Great passage again!!  Wow. . . can I ever relate to that one!!! :Urock:

[claypot]

Good stuff.

That part in Scripture where Jesus and Peter talk (jn21.15) has stuck with me for almost 20 years. It has helped me tremendously. Here's how.

I see it as like this. Jesus asks Peter if he really, really loves Him. Peter says that of course he likes Him. Jesus responds by asking again if he (Peter) really, really loves Him (Jesus). Peter, again, says that of course he likes Him.

Now, here it is......Jesus says the third time "Peter, do you even like me!"

Peter knows he's been found out and runs to Jesus' all knowingness (omniscience) and pleads his case.

What this does for me is I too feel I don't really, really love God or maybe I do because of His work in me but I just can't express it. I need God to look and look deep in me to see something, somewhere in me a love for Him that is beyond my ability to express.

I hear Jesus saying to me....."CP, do you love Me". I say "God, I believe I do but there is so much confusion and crap in the way I just don't honestly know. Please look within me and see what's there and please crucify my unbelief and replace it with a resurrection of absolute total belief. I throw myself on your wisdom and mercy and willingness and abilities.

By the way, He probably won't call me cp but you get the drift! ha ha

cp

[rosered]

 
  Peter , is a good example how the Lord deals with us
  Peter had  zeal  which can be  a  really   good thing
but the direction of the  zeal can be  misguided  at times
    and seeing that  Peter  would deny Jesus when under  personal persecution  and judged by people   reminded me of the  good seed planted  in stoney places   hence  Peter , stone, little pebble . rock  Cephas
 
Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.


Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;


Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


  but this Love Jesus had for Peter Cephas  did not Fail   and Jesus prayed for Peter   and for his faith  to not fail
   when you love someone more than your self and suffer  because you love them ,  that is what real genuine Love is to me
    Gods love  :HeartThrob:   rose

[Taffy]

  Peter , is a good example how the Lord deals with us
  Peter had  zeal  which can be  a  really   good thing
but the direction of the  zeal can be  misguided  at times
    and seeing that  Peter  would deny Jesus when under  personal persecution  and judged by people   reminded me of the  good seed planted  in stoney places   hence  Peter , stone, little pebble . rock  Cephas
 
Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.


Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;


Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


  but this Love Jesus had for Peter Cephas  did not Fail   and Jesus prayed for Peter   and for his faith  to not fail
   when you love someone more than your self and suffer  because you love them ,  that is what real genuine Love is to me
    Gods love  :HeartThrob:   rose

Hey Rose :icon_flower:

Never saw it put that way Before..awesome :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Good stuff.

That part in Scripture where Jesus and Peter talk (jn21.15) has stuck with me for almost 20 years. It has helped me tremendously. Here's how.

I see it as like this. Jesus asks Peter if he really, really loves Him. Peter says that of course he likes Him. Jesus responds by asking again if he (Peter) really, really loves Him (Jesus). Peter, again, says that of course he likes Him.

Now, here it is......Jesus says the third time "Peter, do you even like me!"

Peter knows he's been found out and runs to Jesus' all knowingness (omniscience) and pleads his case.

What this does for me is I too feel I don't really, really love God or maybe I do because of His work in me but I just can't express it. I need God to look and look deep in me to see something, somewhere in me a love for Him that is beyond my ability to express.

I hear Jesus saying to me....."CP, do you love Me". I say "God, I believe I do but there is so much confusion and crap in the way I just don't honestly know. Please look within me and see what's there and please crucify my unbelief and replace it with a resurrection of absolute total belief. I throw myself on your wisdom and mercy and willingness and abilities.

By the way, He probably won't call me cp but you get the drift! ha ha

cp

Yes, that's sort of the way I see it, too.  Not that I really understand the nuance of difference between the two words, but what you say makes sense.  Jesus uses agapao twice, and when Peter doesn't respond correctly,  Jesus meets Peter where he is by using the same word Peter does.  That's what he does for us, he meets us where we are.

[rosered]

  Peter , is a good example how the Lord deals with us
  Peter had  zeal  which can be  a  really   good thing
but the direction of the  zeal can be  misguided  at times
    and seeing that  Peter  would deny Jesus when under  personal persecution  and judged by people   reminded me of the  good seed planted  in stoney places   hence  Peter , stone, little pebble . rock  Cephas
 
Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.


Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;


Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


  but this Love Jesus had for Peter Cephas  did not Fail   and Jesus prayed for Peter   and for his faith  to not fail
   when you love someone more than your self and suffer  because you love them ,  that is what real genuine Love is to me
    Gods love  :HeartThrob:   rose

Hey Rose :icon_flower:

Never saw it put that way Before..awesome :HeartThrob:

  Thanks Bro  for the encouragment
  Peter got offended alot lol
  I find I am not so differnt than ol Pete me self at times 

   but as Peter   may we grow into the Truth and Grace  by the Love and Faith  through    Our Lord Jesus Christ   He is our Lord =Master after all  :winkgrin:
greek 1223 dia preposition
  1) through

a) of place

1) with

2) in

b) of time

1) throughout

2) during

c) of means

1) by

2) by the means of

2) through

a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

1) by reason of

2) on account of

3) because of for this reason

4) therefore

5) on this account

   love  rose  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Peter, the little pebble, has the revelation through Spirit of the identity of Jesus--

Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [Mat 16:16}

And it on this rock (this revelation) that Jesus will build his ekklesia.


Notice Peter doesn't just say the Son of God--he says the Son of the living God.

That's a meditation all by itself.


"living"

G2198
ζάω
zaō
dzah'-o
A primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively): - life (-time), (a-) live (-ly), quick.

[rosered]

 

  Good one Moll .. :thumbsup:


not in context but can be looked up  :HeartThrob:


Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Luk 20:39 Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.

Luk 20:40 And after that they durst not ask him any [question at all]. :grin:

love rose  :HeartThrob: