The Logical Propositions of Universal Salvation and something greater than this.

[YoungYuni]

Hello!

I don't know if anyone has gone out and actually looked at Christianity through an objective lens.

What I mean by this, most people do not understand that the Gospel is understandable with reason and is not some mystical revelation only given to a select few.

If anyone here actually has participated in Christian Apologetics? (If you do not know what the word means, do not assume to know, it is not what you think.)

It is the systematic explanation of the objective truth concerning Christianity.

Here is how it looks:

As Christians we affirm:

God exists.

If God exists:

As Christians we affirm:

1) God is all powerful;
2) God is all knowing;
3) God is all loving;

As Christians we also affirm:
1) Good exists;
2) Evil exists;

These are propositional statements.

From these propositional statements, we can create propositional conclusions.

If God is all powerful and all knowing and evil exists; then, evil has a purpose.
If God is all powerful and all knowing and evil exists; then, evil is not more powerful than God.

Since God is all powerful and all knowing; therefore,  evil must have a purpose and evil is not more powerful than God.

See how that works?

It is illogical for Christianity to affirm that evil can prevail even within the wicked.

Let us continue:

If God is love and can not save everyone from the evil He purposed; then, God is not an all powerful or all knowing.
If God is all powerful and all knowing and will not save everyone from the evil; then, God is not love.

Since God is all powerful and all knowing and love; therefore, God will save everyone from evil.

It is illogical for Christianity to affirm that evil can prevail even with the wicked.

Remembering the aforementioned:

God is all powerful;
God is all knowing;
God is all loving;
Evil exists;
Good exists;
Evil has a purpose;
Evil is not all powerful;
God will save everyone from evil;

The only problem left is the problem of evil, suffering, and pain.

Why does evil exist?

The only reason evil exists, is the same reason we reap what we sow.

It's purpose is to bring understanding through the ability to make choices and learn from those choices.

To those who continue to do evil, they will suffer loss and be disciplined and correctively punished to do what is good.
To those who continue to do good, they will be rewarded and produce a harvest of righteousness.

To what end? So that we may recognize the Truth and the Life; and, the Truth will set us free and death is swallowed up by Life.

For what means? So that we may truly know what it means to love and be loved. Doers of the word, and not just hearers of it.

So although I went through all that. I will reveal a greater understanding.

Universal Salvation is not the point, it is the truth. I believe many people have made this knowledge, their mission forgetting that it just knowledge meant for something greater than the doctrine itself. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.

It is great mistake to believe the Gospel is Universal Salvation.

:boyheart:  :girlheart:

[Molly]

I liked your argument except for this point:

To those who continue to do evil, they will suffer loss and be disciplined and correctively punished to do what is good.
To those who continue to do good, they will be rewarded and produce a harvest of righteousness.


I don't think that is immediately obvious, either to those who do evil or those who suffer from it.

Obviously, those doing evil think they are benefitting from it in some way, and they often do.

I'm not sure there is any way to objectively prove that evil doers suffer from the evil they do.

And, often, doing good seems like a thankless, and maybe even futile, task.

[martincisneros]

Or, Molly, if you're not harvesting with regularity, then re-evaluate your seed, water, light, and the presence of weeds in the attitudes and consistency department.  Mark 4 again, as well as the Corinthians letters.  God gives the increase.  There's never a question mark on Him doing His part.  To those who by patient continuance in doing good who are seeking for glory, honor, and immortality, to them He gives a harvest of the knowledge of God, of His Son Jesus Christ, and all of these material necessities of life are added to you, if I may combine Romans 2, John 17, and Matthew 6. 

When the harvest comes, then you've got to put in the sickle.  And a lot of people are lame in the thanksgiving department until they're rooted, built up, and established, according to Colossians 2.  If you're weary in the thanksgiving department, then you're aborting your harvest 'cause Mark 4 says that when offense enters in and is entertained that Satan steals the Word that was sown.  So, they never experience that sanctification spirit, soul, and body that 1Thessalonians 5:23 promises through which God brings you out of your need and into the harvest of your seed.  As Galatians 6 says, you can't be weary in well doing 'cause as 1Corinthians 15 closes with, your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

[YoungYuni]

I liked your argument except for this point:

To those who continue to do evil, they will suffer loss and be disciplined and correctively punished to do what is good.
To those who continue to do good, they will be rewarded and produce a harvest of righteousness.

I don't think that is immediately obvious, either to those who do evil or those who suffer from it.

Hiya Molly!

Understandable that there are those who do evil, who will never turn from their way. Those who die in their evil, will be put to shame because the reward they receive was only available to them while they had the ability to dig up that harvest of thorns and replant it.

Since they did not, they receive a harvest of thorns which is burned. They suffer loss and there is nothing they can do about it and so are made fully aware of the evil they were doing, and recognize without excuse what is the Truth since despite the evil they did, the death they fully deserve, God in His grace and mercy, saved them and still gave them life.

1 Corinthians 3:14-16
14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
If you believe that God does not discipline those who continue to do evil, then the God you believe in does not love His Children.

Hebrews 6:7-8
7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

If you believe that God is not able to discipline and punish the godlessness and wickedness of men in order that they shall be made the righteousness of God, then you do not believe God is all powerful.

If you believe that God is not going to discipline or punish the godlessness and wickedness of men in order that they shall be made the righteousness of God, then you do not believe God is all loving.

The logical progression is quite clear, all mankind is saved, but some, if not many, men will walk away from this life hurt by the Second Death; while, some men will walk away from this life without tasting or experiencing the Second Death.

The end result remains, each person will be judged accordingly to what is done in the body and in the end of all things will be aware of the Truth which sets creation free, and the Life which has defeated death.

Hopefully we take the time to be wise and live in the wisdom of doing what is good and right because it is the good and right thing to do and for the purpose we were created.

:cloud9:  :gangel:

[Tony N]

Hello!


The only problem left is the problem of evil, suffering, and pain.

Why does evil exist?

The only reason evil exists, is the same reason we reap what we sow.

Your scenario as to why evil exists does not apply to all situations: Job and Christ.
They did not reap what they sowed. Job's friends said he got what he justly deserved. But God said they did not speak rightly as Job did. Job is an apt picture of Christ. And the worst evil perpetrated in the universe fell upon the head of the spotless Lamb of God.

Of course, I'm just trying to start a fight.  :laughing7:

[YoungYuni]

Hello!


The only problem left is the problem of evil, suffering, and pain.

Why does evil exist?

The only reason evil exists, is the same reason we reap what we sow.

Your scenario as to why evil exists does not apply to all situations: Job and Christ.
They did not reap what they sowed. Job's friends said he got what he justly deserved. But God said they did not speak rightly as Job did. Job is an apt picture of Christ. And the worst evil perpetrated in the universe fell upon the head of the spotless Lamb of God.

Of course, I'm just trying to start a fight.  :laughing7:

Hiya!

1)You do not know the difference between suffering loss for doing evil, and suffering evil for doing good.

1 Peter 3:17
17 It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

2)You just do not understand reaping and sowing in the Spirit.

Galatians 6:7
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

There is no denying this fact, you do not understand what you are talking about.

First Jesus Christ:

Luke 2:52
52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Luke 18:14
14 I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Philippians 2:8-11
8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,to the glory of God the Father.

Job is obvious! Read Job 42!

Job 42:5,6,10,12
5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."
10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before.
12 The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first.

So both Christ and Job were rewarded for sowing righteousness and both grew in wisdom and knowledge, both humbling themselves and God exalted them both.

NEITHER JESUS NOR JOB SUFFERED LOSS.

As I said previously in this reply, you simply do not understand what you are talking about.

:icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:

[martincisneros]

Yeah, there's absolutely no such thing as anyone not getting something that they themselves planted.  Everything that we have every morning that we wake up is based on something that we'd previously planted.  God does nothing without a seed.  Nothing.  Not sure how other translations translate it, but I believe that Proverbs says that the curse causeless does not come.  To say otherwise is to mock God.  Every miracle in the ministry of Jesus was because of a seed sown.  In fact, every miracle in the whole Bible is from a seed sown.  Every blessing and every curse in the Bible is from a seed sown. 

Jesus said in Mark 4:13 that if you didn't understand that parable in that chapter, then you'd forever be at a loss for understanding anything that He or His Apostles and Prophets would be teaching.  Jabez got the life that he sowed for.  Isaac sowed in famine and received a hundredfold.  There isn't one good thing in the Bible that didn't come from a seed.  There's not one thing in the Bible that's a promise that you can have without sowing it.  David said in the Psalms that those that delight in cursing will wear the curse like a garment.  Proverbs says that life and death are in the power of the tongue and those that indulge it will eat the fruit of it, for good or evil.  James said to stop having mixed seeds.  I believe his illustration was mixed water 'cause you wind up making all of it disgusting.

1Peter 3 says that if you want to inherit a blessing, you better watch your mouth.  The problem has been not knowing what has been the seed to what.  Each receive the things done in the body, good or bad, 'cause God is no respecter of persons.  Everything we'll ever, ever, ever have is going to be based on the seed that we sow.  Sowing and reaping is the kingdom of heaven.  If it were otherwise, then UR would be impossible, but Christ Jesus is hybridizing all of Creation with Himself.  But that's going to take a while 'cause Scripture assures us that His coming would be delayed.  In the meantime, we can absolutely choke ourselves to death if we're fools not accurately bringing out of our treasures things both new and old.

[Doc]

Yeah, there's absolutely no such thing as anyone not getting something that they themselves planted.  Everything that we have every morning that we wake up is based on something that we'd previously planted.  God does nothing without a seed.  Nothing.  Not sure how other translations translate it, but I believe that Proverbs says that the curse causeless does not come.  To say otherwise is to mock God.  Every miracle in the ministry of Jesus was because of a seed sown.  In fact, every miracle in the whole Bible is from a seed sown.  Every blessing and every curse in the Bible is from a seed sown. 

Jesus said in Mark 4:13 that if you didn't understand that parable in that chapter, then you'd forever be at a loss for understanding anything that He or His Apostles and Prophets would be teaching.  Jabez got the life that he sowed for.  Isaac sowed in famine and received a hundredfold.  There isn't one good thing in the Bible that didn't come from a seed.  There's not one thing in the Bible that's a promise that you can have without sowing it.  David said in the Psalms that those that delight in cursing will wear the curse like a garment.  Proverbs says that life and death are in the power of the tongue and those that indulge it will eat the fruit of it, for good or evil.  James said to stop having mixed seeds.  I believe his illustration was mixed water 'cause you wind up making all of it disgusting.

1Peter 3 says that if you want to inherit a blessing, you better watch your mouth.  The problem has been not knowing what has been the seed to what.  Each receive the things done in the body, good or bad, 'cause God is no respecter of persons.  Everything we'll ever, ever, ever have is going to be based on the seed that we sow.  Sowing and reaping is the kingdom of heaven.  If it were otherwise, then UR would be impossible, but Christ Jesus is hybridizing all of Creation with Himself.  But that's going to take a while 'cause Scripture assures us that His coming would be delayed.  In the meantime, we can absolutely choke ourselves to death if we're fools not accurately bringing out of our treasures things both new and old.

I understand where you're coming from on a lot of these things, and I don't necessarily disagree on the individual points.

But everything we have is something we planted? What about Job's affliction? What about our salvation, did we plant that? While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. No, that was a free gift...we didn't plant that. What about John 2:27 which says that no man has anything not given to him by heaven?   :dontknow:

[YoungYuni]

What about Job's affliction?

Hiya Doc,

There is a difference between suffering loss for doing evil, and suffering evil for doing good.

Job's planted a seed of righteousness and received a harvest of righteousness.

The evidence in Scripture is clear and evident.

The evil Job suffered, is part of the creation is subjected to against it's will. That is, the fact there are other wills being played against each other.

Job suffered evil, but received righteousness and in fact received more than what he lost.

Therefore Job is not a valid example for any exception to reaping and sowing, because Job did receive what he had sown and received it in abundance.

:icon_king: :icon_queen:

[Doc]

What about Job's affliction?

Hiya Doc,

There is a difference between suffering loss for doing evil, and suffering evil for doing good.

Job's planted a seed of righteousness and received a harvest of righteousness.

The evidence in Scripture is clear and evident.

The evil Job suffered, is part of the creation is subjected to against it's will. That is, the fact there are other wills being played against each other.

Job suffered evil, but received righteousness and in fact received more than what he lost.

Therefore Job is not a valid example for any exception to reaping and sowing, because Job did receive what he had sown and received it in abundance.

:icon_king: :icon_queen:

YY,

Point taken about Job, and suffering evil for good,etc. I understand the distinction. But Martin's point seemed to be that absolutely nothing that happens to us happens unless we planted the "causal seed" so to speak. That's why I was specific about Job's affliction, not his overall harvest. Clearly, Job reaped the harvest of righteousness that he sowed, but he also reaped some things he didn't sow (the suffering evil for doing good), which was my whole point.

Best,

Doc