Matthew 18:8 what does this mean?

[anti_nietzsche]

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Jesus here says that the wages of sin are worse than cutting off members of your very body.

This either means that the UR concept of a corrective punishment is still EXTREMELY unpleasant and painful, or that ET is really literally true.

However, I know of no christian who ever had to cut off his hand or foot ... so perhaps Christ was using hyperbole to drive home the point that resistance to sin is absolutely essential.

At other parts of scripture God also says that we must resist sin even to the blood.

What do you think this is? Hyperbole? An example of ET? If you believe in UR, how do you reconcile this verse?

[WhiteWings]

These passages mean that it is better to accept Christianity, and forego some
worldly privilege, than to possess all worldly advantages, and be
overwhelmed in the destruction then about to come upon the Jews, when
multitudes were literally cast into Gehenna. Or it may be figuratively used,
as Jesus probably used it, thus: it is better to enter the Christian life destitute
of some great worldly advantage, comparable to a right hand, than to live in
sin, with all worldly privileges, and experience that moral death which is a
Gehenna of the soul. In this sense it may be used of men now as then. But
there is no reference to an after-death suffering, in any proper use of the
terms. The true idea of the language is this: Embrace the Christian life,
whatever sacrifice it calls for.

[sven]

i´ve read that a jewish writer called Jerusalems temple aionon when it was allready destroyed, maybe when warning the Jews of the aionon fire, Jesus could possibly have meant the real gehenna of fire burning in this days, in the sense of:

"better have a part in the world to come and reign with me, having only one leg instead suffer a shamefull death and beeing burned on Jerusalems wastedump."

i think its possible, Jesus only preached to the Jews.

This either means that the UR concept of a corrective punishment is still EXTREMELY unpleasant and painful

i´ve read some older german articles, many universalists believed in a literal hellfire for a thousands of years, one believed the people of sodom burning in scheol right now until they turn back to their former state (ezekiel 16)


but Mark 9,42 speaks indeed for severe punishment:

and whoever may cause to stumble one of the little ones believing in me, better is it for him if a millstone is hanged about his neck, and he hath been cast into the sea.
And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

how do you interpret this?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Jesus here says that the wages of sin are worse than cutting off members of your very body.

This either means that the UR concept of a corrective punishment is still EXTREMELY unpleasant and painful, or that ET is really literally true.

However, I know of no christian who ever had to cut off his hand or foot ... so perhaps Christ was using hyperbole to drive home the point that resistance to sin is absolutely essential.

At other parts of scripture God also says that we must resist sin even to the blood.

What do you think this is? Hyperbole? An example of ET? If you believe in UR, how do you reconcile this verse?

Mt 18:8 Now, if your hand or your foot is snaring you, strike it off and cast it from you. Is it ideal for you to be entering into life maimed or lame, or, having two hands or two feet, to be cast into age bearing fire?




Everlasting is an abstract term in the greek saying it will seem like forever.  Literally it is temporary.

I have a real life scenario concerning cutting limbs off.   While realistically one could say that if the true root cause of a sin that you cannot seem to escape from is a body part, well, then it is possible that it applies.

But again in abstract terms, sin in the bible is not really defined as having that cause.   

I personally am a basically co-dependant person, I can develop a severe need for people very quickly.  I used to party, a lot, and to this day as far as my feelings and emotions I always had fun at every party I went to.  I still have great memories socially due to that.

But that aspect of my life was not only killing me it was enabling me to not care one bit about God or anyone else.   Upon truely realizing that I cut that type of socializing out of my life and I AM maimed for life.   I have to this day understood the loss that cutting that off has caused my emotions.  I know for a fact I could rid myself of that loss by going back to that old life, but there is more at stake now than me, so I refuse to do so.   

Even being in church fellowshipping with those people did not remove that maimed part of me.  No offense to anyone here, but this fellowship is not removing that either.  So whatever it is truely talking about "entering into maimed" I know thats me.

[Taffy]

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Jesus here says that the wages of sin are worse than cutting off members of your very body.

This either means that the UR concept of a corrective punishment is still EXTREMELY unpleasant and painful, or that ET is really literally true.

However, I know of no christian who ever had to cut off his hand or foot ... so perhaps Christ was using hyperbole to drive home the point that resistance to sin is absolutely essential.

At other parts of scripture God also says that we must resist sin even to the blood.

What do you think this is? Hyperbole? An example of ET? If you believe in UR, how do you reconcile this verse?

Could I take this, Please a-n dont think my words of expression are towards you, but one tires of mens Thoughts.

Jesus only preached to the Jews as quote from Sven.

Yes sven, Indeed he did,  while circling the Coasts Of Galilee..

DO we believeth THIS, That Christ spoke In Parables to the hearing Public, while explaining later to His disciples,.., or Did I miss the term Hyperbole in scripture,.... nope ,It aint there, mans way of filling gaps Im afraid.

Id just like to stay In scrips,...anybody disagree?


Not only Hands, and feet or specifically the RIGHT hand also the eye , sorta THREE makes things complete dont ya think?

If Christ spoke to the JEWS then what was HIS purpose,?..well like it always was and IS, SPOKEN TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN throughout the scrips.....Twas Moving from LAW to GRACE.

does that make simple sense, ..well my kids understand it never the less.

any detractors?...

cos some things NEED to be said ,...would you not agree Paul  :thumbsup:


The metaphor for eyes Is UNDERSTANDING,..But we dont NEED to Undertsand with TWO eyes, two eyes, two differents thoughts Of understanding...tis why Christ says" Let your EYE BE SINGLE",,,we only need One Understanding,,,, let me spell out, we NEED only to SEE the New covenant , NOT both, the one (HAS\is )served its purpose to lead us to Christ.

Ya see, Christ words are SPIRIT and Life, but also parabolic, parabolic to Scripture NOT the THOUGHTS of MEN.


maybe this has set the pattern Now for the Hands and FEET,...well for mine , DARN true.

If we read  In Revelation we see the seven Churches( seven is complete in ONE, Christ has ONLY one Church, not seven) held In His RIGHT hand, ya Just may find that RIGHT hand to be SYMBOLIC of GRACE.....not LAW

CUT off your RIGHT hand? , but also mentions Two, so, if Christs RIGHT and left for that matter ,ts,...what do you think the WORK of the HANDS of the JEWS WERE?

now if this was a Kiddy quiz,,,,they would say,..the Jews  self Righteousness By their OWN works of the HANDS VIA LAW

OH, theres tons of scrips which testify to this A-N, please excuse me not adding them for Now......


now to the FEET,

Does Not God makes our Paths straight, the  LAME walk ?,...and whos walk do we WALK after?..., the walk of LAW or the walk of Grace?...if ya do some study Bud..and see how the eyes , the hands , the feet work accordingto what Im saying..youll see THEM fit VERY WELL

So, Lets Burn that which is DEAD to life in gehenna Fire, for they serve NO PURPOSE,...those works OF law and the UNDERSTANDING of it,for its faded away!

Did Christ testify To making all things New in the NEW C?..
well yes he did,..are we Not a NEW BODY.

With ONE HEAD, a NEW HEART, A NEW MIND, a New Tongue, a New Soul, ..yup...but we also Have NEW FEETfor our FEET are HIS walking in the NEW C, so are our Handsfiled with HIS GRACE, and so are our eyes of understanding, of a New Mind and Heart in the NEWC.

again if you would care for the scrips to Cross check..ill be happy to oblige A-N

But to some this will all be Spirtual Nonsense,,or foolishness as Paul calls it

So bro, this ainy about Et, tis about Burning away whats No longer of Value to those In the New C...if my memory serves me...seems Paul spent much of his time Preacjing the Same... :dontknow:

Blessings
T

[YoungYuni]

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Jesus here says that the wages of sin are worse than cutting off members of your very body.

This either means that the UR concept of a corrective punishment is still EXTREMELY unpleasant and painful, or that ET is really literally true.

However, I know of no christian who ever had to cut off his hand or foot ... so perhaps Christ was using hyperbole to drive home the point that resistance to sin is absolutely essential.

At other parts of scripture God also says that we must resist sin even to the blood.

What do you think this is? Hyperbole? An example of ET? If you believe in UR, how do you reconcile this verse?

Hiya!

I believe it is very clear in what it means.

Jesus did not command anyone while in His walk to cut of their hand or foot if they sin. Just like you observed, you don't know any Christian who has done this either.

In fact, the few that did cut of certain body parts later repented saying their ignorance of how sin works, led them to such a silly notion and asked that nobody follow their example.

If we are prone to sin, then remove ourselves from the situations in which we continue to sin. It is better that we live without those situations, than to continually suffer in them.

Let me give an example:

If I have a weakness to gamble, then going into a casino isn't going to help strengthen me to stop gambling.

If I have a weakness to gamble, but enjoy games of chance whether it is playing Monopoly, watching The Price is Right, Deal or No

Deal, etc., then it isn't going to help strengthen me to stop gambling.

In order to strengthen me to stop gambling, I need to stop where I go and the things I do and watch.

It is better that I do not go, do or watch these things, than to be a homeless person on the street unable to take care of myself or my family because of my gambling.

Now replace gambling with sin, and understand that Jesus was using the metaphor of a body, of which He calls us as a congregation. If spending time with a certain individual causes you to continue to sin, then stop spending time with that individual!

We look at the context, Jesus was speaking to the disciples and the crowd warning them of the Pharisee and Teacher of the Law who did nothing more than strengthen each other's sin and eventually lead Israel into a destruction it had not recovered from until 1800 years later! It was better to leave Israel, than to be in it when Rome destroyed it.

I hope that this brings clarity. It could be applied to the after life, but I believe Jesus was talking about the things in this life, things we all must endure.

:icon_flower:  :cloud9:

[YoungYuni]

Hey!

I just read Paul and Taffy's response.

:thumbsup:  :thumbsup:
:thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

[MacPherson]

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Jesus here says that the wages of sin are worse than cutting off members of your very body.

This either means that the UR concept of a corrective punishment is still EXTREMELY unpleasant and painful, or that ET is really literally true.

However, I know of no Christian who ever had to cut off his hand or foot ... so perhaps Christ was using hyperbole to drive home the point that resistance to sin is absolutely essential.

At other parts of scripture God also says that we must resist sin even to the blood.

What do you think this is? Hyperbole? An example of ET? If you believe in UR, how do you reconcile this verse?

Any apologist I know of say it is hyperbole. I don't how gouging one eye out of two would make much difference, since most people see with both eyes, not just one.

Jesus actually said cast into the fire of Gehennah, the constantly burning garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where outcasts like leapers were sent (around it, not in it). I think I heard that the dispensational view is that Jesus was referring to the sack of Jerusalem in 70 AD. But, the Pharisees used "Gehennah" as a euphemism for Hell. So Jesus could have been talking about the real Gehennah or using the Pharisees euphemism for Hell. :dontknow:

Peace

[Taffy]

yup.

To CAST that which is unprofitable, The Flesh,( for the FLESH profits NOTHNG) Hands , eyes, Feet , ( which again are symbolic)......Two Or Three always Bear Witness to One, but spoken Figuratively,....

Fire Burns But purifies,even in the Natural world, ....cast wood( man , body Parts etc) Into The fire , whats Left is the MOST purist substance known to man....."carbon""....

Cut them OFF?.... for its BETTER to ENTER the KINGDOM maimed,?....well really, you couldnt ENTER any other way, :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

[sven]

But, the Pharisees used "Gehennah" as a euphemism for Hell.

as far is I know the Pharisees denoted Hades to be "hell"

[Tony N]

What about the possibility that it could be about the body of believers and that if a member of their church (an eye) was having sin problems to cut him out of the church? This would be better than the whole body (of believers) suffer?

Just curious what you think of this scenario?

Tony

[Molly]

What about the possibility that it could be about the body of believers and that if a member of their church (an eye) was having sin problems to cut him out of the church? This would be better than the whole body (of believers) suffer?

Just curious what you think of this scenario?

Tony

That actually went through my head when I was reading the scripture last night, although it's not how Ive seen it in the past.

It could be one meaning...

We are all to see with one eye--and we will, eventually...

[Taffy]

What about the possibility that it could be about the body of believers and that if a member of their church (an eye) was having sin problems to cut him out of the church? This would be better than the whole body (of believers) suffer?

Just curious what you think of this scenario?

Tony

Tony ,
The Purpose of the Eye Is to see, and see to Understand, Blessed are the eye(s )that SEE and Ears that HEAR,..tis The Parables which this relates too, the Parables speak of the KINGDOM of God, which for me ,is Christ In us.

I once was Told we sin with the Eyes, lusting after food etc,...well ,as ALL sins Start In the HEART , ..why Cast out the EYE?, why not cut out the HEART,? tis  after all , the cause.

It dont fit Bud,

Was it Eves eye which sinned when she SAW" it was good to EAT"?... Or was It first concieved in the Heart.?
We treat the Cause, and the cause wasnt the Eye, twas the deception of the Heart\mind .

Christ, for me is speaking about the Cause but Figuratively,...Summing up the Soul of man which is enmity, ....its as Plain as that for me Bud..

so No, I dont see the relevance :icon_flower:

But I respect, each to their own :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

It was mentioned on another thread, and now implied on this one of the opinion that if Jesus heard someone speaking a lie, that he would confront them and straighten them out . . .and here where it's implied that the church leaders can remove a person from among them if they are deemed to be an offense to the rest.  In order to "keep" the body straightened out.

I'd like to submit respectfully here that neither of these are to be the case.  For one, if Jesus ministry was to straighten people out, there would have been no time to preach the gospel . .as all men are crooked. 

The disciples would never have been chosen as they spent their entire time trying to apply his spiritual wisdom with their natural understanding . . .and failing miserably at gleaning any knowledge from him for their own principles. 

If Jesus were out to straighten out others, Judas would have been first and foremost on his list.  Not only did Jesus know that it was Judas that would betray him . .but he knew what kind of man that Judas was . . .that would "cause" him to betray him, and STILL he never pulled him aside to "coach" him to "do the right thing".  It seems that as John described Judas, there was still some bitterness toward him just by the choice of description he used concerning him.  Judas was a cheat . . yet Jesus allowed him to be in charge of their very treasury . . . you think Jesus didn't know that Judas would be skimming off the top??

In my logic, that would be like putting an alcoholic in charge overseeing the bar.  I'd call it common sense to let someone else take that job.  But not Jesus . .rather than mentoring Judas with his greed . . .Jesus let him be in charge over the very thing that controlled him . . .

There is another place where the disciples came to Jesus bragging about the fact that they encountered another person that was sharing the gospel, but because he wasn't "one of them", they made him stop . .and Jesus rebuked them for their blindness in the fact that whether this guy was of the same mold as them or not, the gospel was getting preached.

Paul shared a similar deal about people to were out to preach the gospel in order to stuff their own pockets . . .he stated that even though they rebuked Paul for his unorthodox ways, they were still preaching the gospel so leave well enough alone.

All of these instances lead me to think that our good intentions can often be the biggest problem when advancing the kingdom in others.  I agree, Paul does advise ONE CHURCH to root out an individual that was living openly in sin . . .but one, not to cut him off entirely, but to let him feel the lonliness of isolation from the family as a consequence of the sin . .but the over-all scheme is to bring him back into the fold after a time and love on him again.  People always seem to forget that second part.

And two . . . I still believe letters written to strangers 2000 years ago, are not necessarily to be followed by the letter in our back yards today.  It's all a sign that points to something greater . . . embracing the sign only causes one to become fixed in a stationary position spiritually whereas one who uses the sign to point to internal things within us can see how it is our carnal character that we may need to isolate from ourselves for a time of purging so that we, ourselves, are made stronger in Christ in the end.

Perhaps this should be in the "wheat and tares" thread . .as that is what it all boils down to . . .we all have tares within us that God is not nearly as concerned about as much as we are ourselves.

[Molly]

yup.

To CAST that which is unprofitable, The Flesh,( for the FLESH profits NOTHNG) Hands , eyes, Feet , ( which again are symbolic)......Two Or Three always Bear Witness to One, but spoken Figuratively,....

Fire Burns But purifies,even in the Natural world, ....cast wood( man , body Parts etc) Into The fire , whats Left is the MOST purist substance known to man....."carbon""....


:icon_flower:

Gram, If its so pure why do they want to tax the stuff?  :grin:

They really don't.  They just want to tax the air we breathe.   That way, no one is exempt.

[Zeek]

yup.

To CAST that which is unprofitable, The Flesh,( for the FLESH profits NOTHNG) Hands , eyes, Feet , ( which again are symbolic)......Two Or Three always Bear Witness to One, but spoken Figuratively,....

Fire Burns But purifies,even in the Natural world, ....cast wood( man , body Parts etc) Into The fire , whats Left is the MOST purist substance known to man....."carbon""....

Cut them OFF?.... for its BETTER to ENTER the KINGDOM maimed,?....well really, you couldnt ENTER any other way, :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

Didnt he lead them with the RIGHT HAND Moses (=The Law) too?

If the POWER OF SIN =THE LAW ....to CUT OFF the right hand (here as well) Would be to cut off what we could never be justified by (which was not of faith) right?  Didnt the law empowered sin and served to bring us to *THE END* OF itself?  Christ names Himself "the begining and the END" and Christ IS the END of the law. So IN CHRIST (Him NOW seated at the RIGHT HAND of the Father) we have a NEW and living way. The law was always to lead us to Christ (show us all sinned and we could not be justified by the law) it had an end (Of which Christ IS) when faith was revealed in us.

One is the ministration of death and the other the ministration of life. One was of condemnation the other of justification.

Maybe a stretch not sure though I dont know if this applies to the OP or not but you can see an exchange of hands (which pertain to the right hand) whether led by Moses (the law) or Christ (seated at the right hand) led by the Spirit (and those that are are not under the law) etc etc.

Not really sure just thinking outloud and rolling it around  :grin:

wow Kim,

loved this post.  hit me smack in the heart.   :HeartThrob:

[Taffy]

yup.

To CAST that which is unprofitable, The Flesh,( for the FLESH profits NOTHNG) Hands , eyes, Feet , ( which again are symbolic)......Two Or Three always Bear Witness to One, but spoken Figuratively,....

Fire Burns But purifies,even in the Natural world, ....cast wood( man , body Parts etc) Into The fire , whats Left is the MOST purist substance known to man....."carbon""....

Cut them OFF?.... for its BETTER to ENTER the KINGDOM maimed,?....well really, you couldnt ENTER any other way, :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

Didnt he lead them with the RIGHT HAND Moses (=The Law) too?

If the POWER OF SIN =THE LAW ....to CUT OFF the right hand (here as well) Would be to cut off what we could never be justified by (which was not of faith) right?  Didnt the law empowered sin and served to bring us to *THE END* OF itself?  Christ names Himself "the begining and the END" and Christ IS the END of the law. So IN CHRIST (Him NOW seated at the RIGHT HAND of the Father) we have a NEW and living way. The law was always to lead us to Christ (show us all sinned and we could not be justified by the law) it had an end (Of which Christ IS) when faith was revealed in us.

One is the ministration of death and the other the ministration of life. One was of condemnation the other of justification.

Maybe a stretch not sure though I dont know if this applies to the OP or not but you can see an exchange of hands (which pertain to the right hand) whether led by Moses (the law) or Christ (seated at the right hand) led by the Spirit (and those that are are not under the law) etc etc.

Not really sure just thinking outloud and rolling it around  :grin:

he he, ya Nailed it sis :icon_flower:

NO stretch at all sis :icon_flower:

In Revelation we see Christ holing HIS church in HIS right HAND , synonymous WITH GRACE,

Dont we always have two\three witnessess , the LAW which bears TESTIMONY to HIM..first the natural then the spiritual

One speaking after the Law, flesh, carnality\wicked etc

Psa 144:8 Whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand [is] a right hand of falsehood.

and that Of Grace :icon_flower:..The law cometh by MOSES Grace and Truth By Chirist


Psa 89:13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, [and] high is thy right hand.


Cant see this as Hyperbole sis... :icon_king:

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

yup.

To CAST that which is unprofitable, The Flesh,( for the FLESH profits NOTHNG) Hands , eyes, Feet , ( which again are symbolic)......Two Or Three always Bear Witness to One, but spoken Figuratively,....

Fire Burns But purifies,even in the Natural world, ....cast wood( man , body Parts etc) Into The fire , whats Left is the MOST purist substance known to man....."carbon""....

Cut them OFF?.... for its BETTER to ENTER the KINGDOM maimed,?....well really, you couldnt ENTER any other way, :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

Didnt he lead them with the RIGHT HAND Moses (=The Law) too?

If the POWER OF SIN =THE LAW ....to CUT OFF the right hand (here as well) Would be to cut off what we could never be justified by (which was not of faith) right?  Didnt the law empowered sin and served to bring us to *THE END* OF itself?  Christ names Himself "the begining and the END" and Christ IS the END of the law. So IN CHRIST (Him NOW seated at the RIGHT HAND of the Father) we have a NEW and living way. The law was always to lead us to Christ (show us all sinned and we could not be justified by the law) it had an end (Of which Christ IS) when faith was revealed in us.

One is the ministration of death and the other the ministration of life. One was of condemnation the other of justification.

Maybe a stretch not sure though I dont know if this applies to the OP or not but you can see an exchange of hands (which pertain to the right hand) whether led by Moses (the law) or Christ (seated at the right hand) led by the Spirit (and those that are are not under the law) etc etc.

Not really sure just thinking outloud and rolling it around  :grin:

wow Kim,

loved this post.  hit me smack in the heart.   :HeartThrob:

Heres what Im thinking, theres a BODY and members of that body and Moses wouldnt be able to enter into the promise land just see it from afar, theres the body of Moses and the Body of Christ, a dead body and a living body. God descended upon Mt Sinai with fire and Jesus came to bring it, there were those saying "we are Moses disciples (body) and ye are this mans' (Christs) disciples (body) and the bringing together under one head but using one to lead to another somehow. So if its MORE PROFITABLE FOR THEE that ONE of thy members should be cut off that which was not profitable for thee would be cut off as pertained to sin and we know the power of sin itself is the law so I wonder. Glad I'm not alone  :grin: Because what has a hand to do with sin? If you'd cut your hand off how on earth does THAT deal with the issue? My hand does not cause me to sin (as I think of my hand, and niether does my right hand specifically) it always baffled me  :grin:

Hugs

Kim

No more than the Eye which is PLUCKED out...Tis not the Cause, tis a Matter of the Mind and Heart ... :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Well... If the SINGLE EYE is preferred a good plucking out might not be a bad idea   Being DOUBLE minded isnt a good thing either eh'?

A very GOOD THING me thinks , :icon_flower:

Double minded egh , sorta caught Between Law and Grace, the Form and reality , LET your EYE be WHOLE( single),yup. ..seems James speaks of the Withering of the Grass ...and that which is RICH :icon_flower: