Cyber Church Splits?

[Kratos]

I have been involved in "church work" for over 20 years and have experienced many church splits throughout those years. Usually, they are blamed on various differences of doctrine or emphasis, but often it is really just the next up-and-coming new gifted minister is just finding a reason to get his own church and his own glory.

When this happens, some stay behind with the old guard and others move on with the new and a third group just fade away and loose interest in the things of God because they are tired of the politics and the strife.

I was meditating today about how many have found their fulfillment of the admonition to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together through the internet and discussion boards. It seems at least for now that many feel led by the Lord to not attend a regular assembly and this is our main source of Christian fellowship.

Now, I am just throwing this out to everyone, but it seems that the more things change, the more they remain the same. Are we seeing cyber church splits now? It seems that many of the Tentmaker church members have decided that it was time for them to have their own cyber church because they desired another emphasis or focus. And, it seems that some have gone with them and some have remained behind and some have faded away. We seem to have some new pastors here at Tentmaker church and some of the old ones have started their own.

I am not judging this trend and maybe it is God's way of keeping us from being stuck in a religious rut. I am just "tellin' it as I sees it".

Anyone see this too or is it just me?

John

[AbbasChild]

Hmmm. Interesting question. I think that I wouldn't call it a churchsplit, but people being called into different directions. In some sense every church should prepare their folks for their own ministry and send them out to fulfill their God-given calling. That's properbly also what's happening here. This other cyber-churches will properbly reach people which weren't reached through this one and the more people there are out there who proclaim the truly good news, the better. And as far as I can see those who started their own ministry are still in contact with this one, so I don't think that's to bad. Its more like a new 'apostolic' team has been send out to do a new thing somewhere else. If for example I would have the possibiblity to start something in Germany I don't think that would be considerd a churchsplit. Just my thoughts.

[martincisneros]

Hi Kratos,


Not sure if there's very much Cyber Church splitting right now, though like some of the brick and mortar type of churches, some congregations might be developing satellite campuses.  I've personally never understood the Cyber Church thing all of that well, unless that's just another word for discussion boards.  As far as Yahoo discussion groups, if you're mentioning any of those, they've been around for a few years, actually.  I've got most of 'em bookmarked and have had 'em bookmarked for a few years. 


I've personally always tried to start Yahoo group pages, just to use them as newsletters, but all I've been able to attract are spammers and critics who were "spying out our liberty in Christ."  Had a Yahoo group for a couple of years that was right alongside the newsletter feature that was integrated with my website on my old server, before my bandwidth became an issue a few months ago.  And I happened to peak at the email addresses that were subscribed on my Yahoo group page a couple of months ago and probably 700 of the 800 subscribers were a bunch of 63q632q46236236@ nonsensenonsense.it type of addresses that had been subscribed perhaps even automatically by computer programs trying to spread the spam around.  But I had all of the securities in place on my yahoo group because I was keeping it as just a newsletter page.  I'm trying again, because of something that the Lord's told me to do locally.  I was so disgusted with the shape of that old group page that it was easier just to hit "delete" on the whole thing than to try to clean out the addresses that were obviously bogus.


Quite a few pages have been around "forever and ever" from the one at True Grace Ministries to a bunch of other sites that I have bookmarked on a different computer that I can't get to right now.  Are there any specific ones that you're mentioning other than the couple dozen Yahoo group pages that have nearly always been around?  I personally like to know where everybody's at online.  That way as I'm bringing people in, I can give people a list of internet resources, groups, newsletters, etc.


I personally celebrate the diversity, because there's no shortage of folks on the internet.  If I ever wanted to do a "cyber church" and if I ever felt like things had split into 50 million congregations and I was left with a very quiet board or series of boards, I'd simply take out an ad in the Fort Worth, Texas newspaper and in the Dallas, Texas newspaper about being online and then just wait it out for a new crowd to start trickling in.  I tend to lack the patience though, for any type of set up like Tentmaker has here.  But get me a couple of transcriptionists, secretaries, and ghost writers, and I'd be like Origen with just running my mouth for hours a day and sending out a crazy number of newsletters all over the internet under various domain names, etc.  But when you're the only typist that you've got on your team, that kinda keeps you boxed in a bit - even if you devoted twelve hours a day to it.  Even someone that can type 180 to 200 words per minute can only type so much in that length of time.


What's most interesting to me is that God's raised up a few animal rights versions of Myspace that are now online and I've been spending quite a bit of time over there at those sites blogging and setting up my pages with more and more text in general.  And it seems like there's a fresh hunger in those circles for what Paul Seigvolk and George DeBenneville called "The Everlasting Gospel" about 300 years ago.  I'm speaking with a lot more freedom over in those circles than I've ever been able to in previous years, about the Creation entering into the liberties of the Children of God message that God gave me a few years back off of Hosea 2:18 and Jeremiah 31:27-28, and of course from Romans 8 and Mark 4 as well, among other passages.  I've posted a few UR graphics, like a cartoon thing that Martin Zender did a while back and that's been an interesting conversation starter!  I agree with Florian, that God's just getting people better positioned for what He's up to.  Some are out there with ambition and there's also quite a few of us out here that have genuinely been "Sent."

[Kept]

Its all in the perspective I suppose. Where some see division others see multiplication.

We all should follow the Spirits leading and do what we feel we are called to do to me.

kept

[Kratos]

Like I said in the OP, I am not saying that it is a bad thing. I have been invloved in this kind of "multiplication" before myself. I just was noticing that it is happening is all.

[Kept]

Its amazing how many forums have popped up in the last few months. I keep running across them. I even see some on profiles here! And more and more ur sites! Its really awesome seeing the growth of this message to me.

I think that is wonderful.

I love dboutwells new site , think its fab. And many more.

Im working on two websites at this time and hopefully will have them up in a couple of months if all goes well.

One thing having a forum/website is doing for me is Im learning ftp, some html, sql and all kinds of stuff. That is one of the main reasons I began one was to learn. I cold make mistakes on mine and not mess someone elses up haha

anyhoo its been a wonderful learning experiance.

I highly recommend it IF God calls you to do it.

kept

[Redkora]

Now, I am just throwing this out to everyone, but it seems that the more things change, the more they remain the same. Are we seeing cyber church splits now? It seems that many of the Tentmaker church members have decided that it was time for them to have their own cyber church because they desired another emphasis or focus. And, it seems that some have gone with them and some have remained behind and some have faded away. We seem to have some new pastors here at Tentmaker church and some of the old ones have started their own.

I am not judging this trend and maybe it is God's way of keeping us from being stuck in a religious rut. I am just "tellin' it as I sees it".

Anyone see this too or is it just me?

Perhaps the branches will provide more compatible places for newcomers to UR, or at least open-minded Christianity. No one is the same, so I don't think everyone should be involved in the same church. All that matters is that it dispenses truth. It just depends on people's individual needs at the time.

[Craig]

I have been involved in "church work" for over 20 years and have experienced many church splits throughout those years. Usually, they are blamed on various differences of doctrine or emphasis, but often it is really just the next up-and-coming new gifted minister is just finding a reason to get his own church and his own glory.

When this happens, some stay behind with the old guard and others move on with the new and a third group just fade away and loose interest in the things of God because they are tired of the politics and the strife.

I was meditating today about how many have found their fulfillment of the admonition to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together through the internet and discussion boards. It seems at least for now that many feel led by the Lord to not attend a regular assembly and this is our main source of Christian fellowship.

Now, I am just throwing this out to everyone, but it seems that the more things change, the more they remain the same. Are we seeing cyber church splits now? It seems that many of the Tentmaker church members have decided that it was time for them to have their own cyber church because they desired another emphasis or focus. And, it seems that some have gone with them and some have remained behind and some have faded away. We seem to have some new pastors here at Tentmaker church and some of the old ones have started their own.

I am not judging this trend and maybe it is God's way of keeping us from being stuck in a religious rut. I am just "tellin' it as I sees it".

Anyone see this too or is it just me?

John

Sometimes it is not for any of those reasons. I can tell you why some have done this, but ultimately it is God who judges the hearts of all.

I have had StudentoftheWord Ministries far before I ever met Tentmaker Ministries or was involved with them. The Lord called me to teach in a certain manner that will reach a certain people. The mission has not changed even though my understanding of Salvation has.

I strongly feel, that the Christian Church has been commissioned as ambassadors of Jesus Christ not to correct and lay the foundation of the Law on the world, but rather reveal the salvation of the world through the message of reconciliation in their Savior Jesus Christ (John 3:15-18) who has delivered us from the curse of the Law and brought us into His wonderful Grace. The foundation of our Savior Jesus Christ has already been laid and the role of the Church is to help direct and teach how to build on that foundation, by not just be living in the Spirit but walking after it (1 Corinthians 3:6-15; Romans 8:1-3). My perspective of how the Christian life should be and taught is based on commandments of Christ and the example set forth by His apostles (1 Corinthians 3:6-15 and 1 John 4).

Written in 1998, 5 years before Universal Reconciliation, could you tell that I was not a Christian Universalist?

Here is more:

Laying the Foundation of Jesus Christ:
Knowing the principal doctrine of Salvation, this based on Romans 10:10 and Ephesians 2:8,9. For Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. For it is by FREE GRACE that you were saved through faith. And this Salvation is not of your own doing, but a it is a gift of God. Not because of works of the fulfillment of the Law's demands, lest anyone should have reason to boast.

Building on the Foundation of Jesus Christ:
Principle:
- If your knowledge, wisdom and understanding are poor, what you build will be of same quality.
- If your knowledge, wisdom and understanding are great, what you build will be of same quality.
       
Steps of Building:
Know the Character of God.
                  - By testing the spirit,
                  - By learning whom God is by His Word.
                 
Come to the full acceptance of Who God is.
                  - This is our step of faith, going by what the Word says to be
                    true and not what we perceive, experience and emotionalize
                    which might be telling us otherwise.
                  - Learning to Trust the Character of God and only His Guidance
                    through the Holy Spirit.
                  - Learning what is His Love.

Come to the acceptance and assurance that we are Children of God. Living, running the race. (Hebrews 6:1-3)
                  - Having and expressing the Character of God in our lives.
                  - Relaxing in Jesus (taking up his Yoke)
                  - Renewing our minds daily by the Word of God.
                  - Planting and watering the seeds of God.
                  - Sharing the Gospel.

Learning what is of God and what is not.
                  - Knowing we have an enemy who is already defeated but is a
                    deceiver to the World and even God's children.
                  - The only way we can do this is if we really understand God,
                    and adhere to accurate teaching of the Gospel of Salvation,
                    which is in Christ Jesus.

This is the format that God has planted in my heart, and the vision He gave me. There is of course overlapping on the 4 points of Steps of Building, but that is because maturity doesn't come instantly, it is a growth process and many people are at different stages of Christian growth.

The Church is a family gathering place and not just a filling station for the Word, but it is a daily walks not a Sunday stop. We need to make an effort to secure a base core of people by ministering and sincere fellowship. We need to be a strong assertive group who attends the needs of each individual who walks into the service, and out. We will serve the needs of the community, but always as servants to God.

Now that is what the Lord put on my heart in 1998, at the age of 18. I did not come to universalism because of the abuse I received from teachers of Eternal Torment. I know how it feels, I know the abuse and tactics people use to brain-wash you to think your salvation is not secure, that you may not be saved and that a simple sin as jay walking, will send you to an eternal hell. None of that mattered when it came to coming to the truth. I did not rebel, I sought out the truth. 

- If your knowledge, wisdom and understanding are poor, what you build will be of same quality.

There are people right now, who are not saved, because they have not trusted in the cornerstone, but rather are doomed to stumble over it and have it become their capstone.

There are many in UR who do not understand what that means, imagination takes hold and fear of what it could mean, floods their minds and drives their emotions crazy. I was just rebuked by a Universalist in another forum, that his father was more kind and loving and forgiving than the God I described. Was it the God I described, or was it the God he imagined I described? Well I know what I am talking about, I know that rebuke was caused be his own misunderstanding, not because of my understanding.

Does this look evil?
Isaiah 28:16
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

Psalm 118:21-23
I will give you thanks, for you answered me; you have become my salvation.
The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.

Cornerstone:
â€"noun
1. a stone uniting two masonry walls at an intersection. 
2. a stone representing the nominal starting place in the construction of a monumental building, usually carved with the date and laid with appropriate ceremonies. 
3. something that is essential, indispensable, or basic: The cornerstone of democratic government is a free press. 
4. the chief foundation on which something is constructed or developed: The cornerstone of his argument was that all people are created equal. 

Capstone:
â€"noun
1. a finishing stone of a structure. 
2. the crowning achievement, point, element, or event. 

Yet people let their imaginations take them away, and I am called to destroy those imaginations.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5
For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Some people don't like that. I have asked people, I have inquired even psycologists to give me feedback if what I am doing, what I have a constistant pattern of doing, is destructive, encouraging or none of the two. I have recieved the same advice, there is nothing inherantly destructive in what I do, ultimately it leads a person to think about what they are doing instead of reacting. The only advice was to pick my 'battles' wisely.

The foot cannot say to the hand, I am not in need of you and the eye cannot say to the ear, I am not in need of you. We are the BODY of Christ, each serving his own part and even though it appears divided because an ear is not an eye, it is in unity with the One Body.

[Redlettervoice]

.  We are "always" ONE in the Spirit.  Can't do a thing about it, because Jesus wrought it! ha

Nothing wrong as I see it, with those who go, or those who stay, just too many becomes

hard to get around and talk with...........FREE to go, FREE to stay, FREE  FREE  FREE. whom

the SON sets FREE is FREE indeed!  What is that that Paul said? I think it is in lst Cor, something

about "NOT being servants of "men" but about being the LORD's FREEMAN! 

[Cardinal]

 :icon_flower: Love this icon, LOL......anyway, Amen Red, FREE, FREE, FREE........once asked to pray about a church split that was going on about 60 miles from here, by one of the two members who were involved, both on opposite "sides" of the issue. The Lord had the last word, as always. He told me to tell them; it was "cell division" of His body, He had ordained it, and to stop the faultfinding. The two "pastors" made up and buried the hatchet, and went their separate ways in grace. Just love it when He does things that way, and He always does it, just that way.  :cloud9: Love the new smilies, guys!

[Redlettervoice]

I will never forget a man telling me one time that UNITY comes thru DIVISION!

Just think about it!
God is one more divider! Been dividing LIGHT from Dark since the beginning!

I think the dark gets swallowed up in us, and then we sing: "I wonder where the yellow went,
when I brushed my teeth with Pesodent? ha ..........I mean Darkness when I God filled my mind
with Jesus!  ho ho ho

[Craig]

And anything that is in unity, has a division of itself. The body is divided into parts, but the parts make up the body. The body is not complete with out it's parts, and the parts are nothing without the body.

[Pierac]

John, I'm still here because no one else will have me.  :LH:

Actually, you bring up a good point. I have to admit I never noticed it til you said something but I have visited several forums that were break aways from others.   :JCThink:

[julzabro2]

Discussion boards have been the only churches that I'll attend regularly. :thumbsup:

I'm sure that many other's have and will be brought in through this venue.

It's like Barnabas and Paul parting ways. I believe that division DOES lead to unity....it leads to One.

[reFORMer]

   'Though I've used and promoted the resources here, 'til recently I  had little interest in posting at tentmaker because so many of y'all have been already adjusted to more accurately reflect God's self revelation in those basics darkened by the spiritual death within Institutional Christianity's tradition, rejection of God's servants and ignorance of His word.  It's other "church" sites that need the communication on these matters.  Here I'm probably a dim candle at high noon.
   I feel less the immediacy of "Church" happening here because of no live chatroom.  Perhaps something of the progressive grading of participants used on the site could also determine access to such a thing.  Even if those unqualified to enter the live chat could audit it, the loss could be no permanent postings to be later perused.  'Though more dynamic it's more ephemeral.
   God caused the division at Babel to make things better.  On the brighter side...the more God's children can mature beyond consumerism to make creative contributions in the authority of their direct relationship to the Highest:  the more His kingdom manifests in the earth.  Whether by individual or corporate expression, expect the multiplication of the word of the Lord.  "...and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." (Dan 2:35)
---JMRohde

[Livelystone]

   'Though I've used and promoted the resources here, 'til recently I  had little interest in posting at tentmaker because so many of y'all have been already adjusted to more accurately reflect God's self revelation in those basics darkened by the spiritual death within Institutional Christianity's tradition, rejection of God's servants and ignorance of His word.  It's other "church" sites that need the communication on these matters.  Here I'm probably a dim candle at high noon.
   I feel less the immediacy of "Church" happening here because of no live chatroom.  Perhaps something of the progressive grading of participants used on the site could also determine access to such a thing.  Even if those unqualified to enter the live chat could audit it, the loss could be no permanent postings to be later perused.  'Though more dynamic it's more ephemeral.
   God caused the division at Babel to make things better.  On the brighter side...the more God's children can mature beyond consumerism to make creative contributions in the authority of their direct relationship to the Highest:  the more His kingdom manifests in the earth.  Whether by individual or corporate expression, expect the multiplication of the word of the Lord.  "...and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." (Dan 2:35)
---JMRohde

Hi Jim

IMO......... a very nice post  :thumbsup:

Blessings

Doug