Questions to the universalist

[WhiteWings]

http://www.1john57.com/universalistfaq.htm

QUESTION TO THE UNIVERSALIST:  Is time a creation of God? (Genesis 1:5) 

UNIVERSALIST QUESTION:   Do you think that God created "evil" in Isaiah 45:7?       

Hebrews 7: 24 yet that One, because of His remaining for the eon, has an inviolate priesthood.

Jesus is remaining for the eon?  Remember this is the same exact terminology used to describe how mankind is marrying.  Is Jesus dead right now?  If not, where is He right this very minute?  Does Jesus Christ still remain after the first earth is destroyed by fire as talked about in 2 Peter?  Does Jesus also remain way way after the new heavens and the new earth wherein only dwells righteousness in 2 Peter as well?  Hmmmmm.
What Knoch will fail to admit because he cannot affort to admit this, is that there is a "aion" that is infinite as described in Revelation 22.  I counted at least three "eons" before what Jesus spoke of regarding marriage.  Knoch used the singular of eon.  That is pure error.  What scripture is telling us is that there is one WORLD which is of course the one that we are living in now.  Then the SECOND world is the one without sin and is without marriage.  Knoch cannot reconcile his blunder.   You used the correct translation by using "eons" HOWEVER the greek scripture in that verse is in the singular.  Hence the error.

Much more on the webpage.

[alihaymeg]

QUESTION TO THE UNIVERSALIST:  Is time a creation of God? (Genesis 1:5)

I've not seen much in scripture that states that.

From a philosophical perspective it reasons out that time is illusory; meaning that it is an illusion based on the inevitable change that must occur in an imperfect environment. Let's think it through.

If you never tired
If you never had need of food
If you never had need of drink
If you had no need of sleep
If you never became cold or hot
If there was no place that you were required to be that demanded that you know what time it is

What need would there be to even define time?
We measure time because we are all counting down to death.
In a perfect environment nothing ever degrades or dies. Nothing ever changes permanently.
We use time to measure decay. Time relates strictly to temporal things, things that are purely physical.

[sven]

Hebrews 7,24

ο δε δια το μενειν αυτον εις τον αιωνα απαραβατον εχει την ιερωσυνην (Textus Receptus)

and he, because of his remaining -- to the age, hath the priesthood not transient

(Youngs Literal Translation)

Psalm 73,12 (maybe 72,12) in the septuagint.

ιδου ουτοι αμαρτωλοι και ευθηνουνται εις τον αιωνα κατεσχον πλουτου

Lo, these [are] the wicked and easy ones of the age, They have increased strength.

Psalm 110,4

ωμοσεν κυριος και ου μεταμεληθησεται συ ει ιερευς εις τον αιωνα κατα την ταξιν μελχισεδεκ

Jehovah hath sworn, and doth not repent, `Thou [art] a priest to the age, According to the order of Melchizedek.'

(Youngs Literal Translation)

maybe it helped somebody

[alihaymeg]

It's always good to have you here Sven. We enjoy fellowship with you. :happygrin:

[WhiteWings]

QUESTION TO THE UNIVERSALIST:  Is time a creation of God? (Genesis 1:5)

I've not seen much in scripture that states that.

Time only exists in a material world. Time came into existance when the universe came into existance.

[WhiteWings]

QUESTION TO THE UNIVERSALIST:  Is time a creation of God? (Genesis 1:5)

I've not seen much in scripture that states that.

Found several translations stating God created time/ages/eons/generations

Hebrews 1:2 
(BBE)  But now, at the end of these days, it has come to us through his Son, to whom he has given all things for a heritage, and through whom he made the order of the generations;

(CLV) in the last of these days speaks to us in a Son, Whom He appoints enjoyer of the allotment of all, through Whom He also makes the eons;

(GDBY_NT) whom he put forth the heir of all things, and through whom he created the ages;

(LITV)  in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;

(PNT1745) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the ages.

(Rotherham) At the end of these days, He hath spoken unto us in his Son,—whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he hath made the ages;

(The Scriptures 1998+) has in these last days spoken to us by the Son, whom He has appointed heir of all, through whom also He made the ages,1 Footnote: 1John 1:3.

(UPDV) has at the end of these days spoken to us in [his] Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the ages;

(WNT)  has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages.

(WAS) at the end of these days spake to us in His Son, Whom He appointed Heir of all things, through Whom also He constituted the ages;

(YLT)  in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

Same verse in KJV
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Meaning of the 'root word' of what KJV translated as worlds according to several lexicons

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

G165
αἰών
aiōn
Thayer Definition:
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from the same as G104
Citing in TDNT: 1:197, 31

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

165 aivw,n aion {ahee-ohn'}
Meaning:  1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2) the worlds, universe 3) period of time, age
Origin:  from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m
Usage:  AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128

<165> aivw,n (aion)
Meaning: a space of time, an age
Origin: from a prim. root appar. mean. continued duration
Usage: age(20), ages(6), ancient time(1), beginning of time(m)(1), course(m)(1), eternal(2),eternity(1), ever*(2), forever(27), forever and ever(20), forevermore(2), never*(8), old(2), time(1), world(m)(7),worlds(m)(1).

Notes: 
1 )Or, at the end of these days
2 )Lit., ages
a )Mat 13:39; 1Pe 1:20
b )Joh 9:29
c )Joh 5:26, Joh 5:27; Heb 3:6; Heb 5:8; Heb 7:28
d )Psa 2:8; Mat 28:18; Mar 12:7; Rom 8:17; Heb 2:8
e )Joh 1:3; 1Co 8:6; Col 1:16
f )1Co 2:7; Heb 11:3

So I think it's clear God created ages.
Ages are of limited time.
Perhaps a little less strongly proven but time/ages will end.

[WhiteWings]

KJV
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

YLT and many others
2Co 4:4  in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;

Needless to say God was, is and always will be God.
When the age ends there will be no more ages. Otherwise there would be another god for that new age. And as we all agree on there is only one God....
I hope that makes sense. Bedtime for me....

(http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~richard/images/Spring2005/SleepingOnTheJobLogo.jpg)

[alihaymeg]

Obviously everything is a creation of God, but I was just pointing out that time only exists in this flawed imperfect physical existance.

WW,
Just for the record. Even though God is the God of one age does not mean that He cannot be the God of another age as well. I'm un clear as to what the point you are making is.
Care to clarify?

[WhiteWings]

alihaymeg,

I somehow can't write down how I feel about that....
Maybe it's best to ignore that post because it's only confusing. But anyway I try to explain with a more general example.

Anyway KJV again used world instead of age. We should always use the most correct translations. Not only when it involves hell. When all the translation errors are corrected the Bible gets a whole new feeling for me.
The whole 'story' shifts from earth towards time. It makes all those aion 'condradictions' easier to understand and align in the whole story. For me it also explains God plan is of limited duration. Then things change beyond imagination. I think the age in the above verse is meaning time. No a age followed by another age.
There are several ages and all are inside the 'master age'
Many say there are 7 ages in total. Lets assume that's right. Then see all ages as 1 day. And the age in 2 Corinthians 4:4 as a week where all ages fit in.
Time only lasts for a week. After that not even God is able to be God of 'the week' because He uncreated 'the week'
I hope it's a little more clear now.

A hint to creation of time during the creation of the universe is a important hint for me the Bible is inspired.
The fact time and matter are linked is discovered many centuries after the Bible was written.

Obviously everything is a creation of God, but I was just pointing out that time only exists in this flawed imperfect physical existance.

Then I have completly misunderstood:

I've not seen much in scripture that states that.

I thought you where asking for verses indicating creation of time

[alihaymeg]

I think we are on the same page here. I was just confused by the use of the word "uncreated". It sounds like you mean that those souls are anhialated. (cease to exist)

[Texas Son]

If suffering in hell was forever or eternal, wouldn't it mean without beginning or end? If God is eternal, there was no starting point for Him. I think it would be more genuine for the ETer's to say "henceforth" rather than forever and ever.   :dontknow:

[rosered]

  :icon_flower:    Hi all ., I don't know how to answer this ? 
  But a time is set ,  to the temporary  ,death is inevitable,

but for the eternal  there is no death at all
  there is no life outside of God , even the breath of life is taken back  to all things that exist  in the temporary  correct ?

  :winkgrin: ps the Red Bull nice touch WW  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

If suffering in hell was forever or eternal, wouldn't it mean without beginning or end? If God is eternal, there was no starting point for Him. I think it would be more genuine for the ETer's to say "henceforth" rather than forever and ever.   :dontknow:

Maybe so; but in defence of the ETs the (con)text at least makes clear there is a start.
But is henceforth always without an end?

[alihaymeg]

WW,

     Can I ask what your official stance is on the subject of Hell?

Eternal?
Temporary?
Anhialation?

[WhiteWings]

Sure you can ask. But I have to say I'm still partly/mostly atheist. But from what I understood from the Bible sofar:

1. Temporary? 70% change  => no real fire. UR type.
2. Anhialation? 20% chance
3. Eternal? 10%

More official you ain't gonna get from me  :laughing7:
I'm still searching and you might get an other answer in a few months.

[alihaymeg]

That's cool.

     You say mostly atheist. Not Agnostic? My ex Father-in Law used to say that he believed in God but he wasn't sure that it wasn't him. He he! I love that.

[Tony N]

http://www.1john57.com/universalistfaq.htm

QUESTION TO THE UNIVERSALIST:  Is time a creation of God? (Genesis 1:5) 

UNIVERSALIST QUESTION:   Do you think that God created "evil" in Isaiah 45:7?       

Hebrews 7: 24 yet that One, because of His remaining for the eon, has an inviolate priesthood.

Jesus is remaining for the eon?  Remember this is the same exact terminology used to describe how mankind is marrying.  Is Jesus dead right now?  If not, where is He right this very minute?  Does Jesus Christ still remain after the first earth is destroyed by fire as talked about in 2 Peter?  Does Jesus also remain way way after the new heavens and the new earth wherein only dwells righteousness in 2 Peter as well?  Hmmmmm.
What Knoch will fail to admit because he cannot affort to admit this, is that there is a "aion" that is infinite as described in Revelation 22.  I counted at least three "eons" before what Jesus spoke of regarding marriage.  Knoch used the singular of eon.  That is pure error.  What scripture is telling us is that there is one WORLD which is of course the one that we are living in now.  Then the SECOND world is the one without sin and is without marriage.  Knoch cannot reconcile his blunder.   You used the correct translation by using "eons" HOWEVER the greek scripture in that verse is in the singular.  Hence the error.

Much more on the webpage.

This is so easy to answer if one just puts on their anointed thinking cap.
First of all, in the Concordant Literal New Testament wherever aion in the singular was used in the Greek text, the CLNT always used the singular and wherever the plural form was used in the Greek it is plural in the CLNT. This proves Knoch did nothing underhanded and the person making such a claim that eon should be plural in the version where it is not is patently incorrect.

Also, the person want us to believe that an eon must be eternal so that Christ can live eternally. But is this correct thinking?

Let's look at an instance which should put this matter to rest:

In Revelation 20:4 it says that Christ and those with Him will live for a thousand years:

Rev 20:4 And I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment was granted to them. And the souls of those executed because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do not worship the wild beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on their forehead and on their hand- they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years."

Now then, should we make the thousand years be unending so that Christ and those who are with Him will live eternally? Yet we know that that thousand year eon will end for Revelation 20:7 said it will end:

Rev 20:7 And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail."

Also, in the Hebrew letter which the person brings up concerning Jesus remaining for the eon, this has to do with priests dying and never perfecting anything through their sacrifices.

The context is thus:
Heb 7:23-25  And these indeed, are more than one, having become priests because death prevents them from abiding;"  (24)  yet that One, because of His remaining for the eon, has an inviolate priesthood."  (25)  Whence, also, He is able to save to the uttermost those coming to God through Him, always being alive to be pleading for their sake."

So the deaths of the priests kept them from abiding yet Christ is not dying but is remaing for the eon and even though the eon will end, we are assured that He will be around for the next two eons as well unlike the priests who died.

By the way, I answered many things 1Jn57.com A.K.A. Don Hewey, brought up here: http://saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAion.html

Tony
http://saviourofall.org

[ScarletWren]

I guess I get too caught up in thinking sometimes.

So in order to even contemplate if there will be time after the New Earth and Kingdom of Heaven is in palce over all, then what is the definition of time?

I agree that time will no longer be something we are concerned about as far as only having so much time left in a day, or a lifetime.  But how is our perception going to be?  Will this lifetime we lived, be in the past?  With all my being I believe we will remember it, so won't it be in the 'past'?  Will we sleep or not?  I kind of like the idea of still being able to take a nap, but if we don't that's ok too.  Won't there be any concept of 'after I get done with this or that I'm gonna go visit my sister, or mom, or great grandfather?  When we walk somewhere won't we take one step after another and so, when we get to where we are going, the 'future' becomes the present and at some point the present becomes the past?  I know that God is capable of living outside of time, but will that ever be the case for us?  I probably don't make any sense to anyone else, oh well, not anything new.  I think these thoughts and a lot more, I just get uncomfortable when people say there will be no more time, I don't know how to relate to that.  So it's a relative concept.

[WhiteWings]

I guess I get too caught up in thinking sometimes.

So in order to even contemplate if there will be time after the New Earth and Kingdom of Heaven is in palce over all, then what is the definition of time?

And what is it linked to. The way the laws of physics work in this universe state that matter and time can't be seperated.
So to get into a state of 'no time' either:
a] There is no more matter (we are spiritual)
b] God creates a new universe with diffrent laws.
c] Both

Verses like: there shall be no more death, pain point to that. As well a 'the stars fled away' And the demention of New Jerusalem.

I agree that time will no longer be something we are concerned about as far as only having so much time left in a day, or a lifetime.  But how is our perception going to be?  Will this lifetime we lived, be in the past?  With all my being I believe we will remember it, so won't it be in the 'past'? 

It will be the past. But in a timeless existence there is only now. That's also why God has no age. He's not infitely old.

Will we sleep or not?  I kind of like the idea of still being able to take a nap, but if we don't that's ok too.

You only need to sleep because your body can't handle being active all the time. I guess no sleep in heaven is needed but perhaps you can if you want to


 

I know that God is capable of living outside of time, but will that ever be the case for us?

If we are gonna live with God, and with that I mean in the same place not just in prayers, I think we also live out of time.
But there isn't much info about Heaven in the Bible. I is mentioned but not details besides that it is a positive place.

Such thing are hard to imagine. Just imagine you live in a 2D world. A bit like a drawing in a comic book.
Then try to imagine a 3D world.
BTW we live in a 10D world.....

[alihaymeg]

Neutrino anomalies and large extra dimensions

Scientists are now saying that there must be at least 5 and posibly as many as 10 or 12 dimentions of existance. We can only experience 3 of them with our 5 senses but that does not mean that they are not there.

This is secular science, not Christian science. Neutrinos are radical particals that shift from one form to another randomly. They also shift from matter to anti-matter and back at random.

Check it out. Very cool stuff.

[ScarletWren]

Thanks for your attempts to explain the unexplainable, but bottom line is I'm comfortable with the idea that time is 'eternal', lol.  I'm comfortable with my thoughts that no matter how much the Father (not talking Christ here because Christ always maintained that the Father was greater than Him even tho he had all authority, yet still he maintained his office UNDER Him who gave him that power) imparts His life to us or how much we will be filled with the spirit of the Father, we will not BE Him, and that we maintain some sense of individuality with the Father being the eternal ruling force (at some point the Son gives His rule back to the Father, it doesn't say that there will no longer be a King).  I absolutely rebel at the concept of some kind of nirvana with a constant melding of personalities, thoughts, etc.  I prefer instead to know that there will be love and peace and some sense of purpose, whatever that purpose may be.  God is never idle, nor do I believe we will be.

When speaking of dimensions, you are speaking to a toddler just learning colors, etc.  Yes, there is a world of difference between 2d and 3d but you didn't lose a dimension when you went from one to the other, you added one.  You can ADD all the dimensions you want, but have you eliminated one of them in that equation?  You can have your ideas of timelessness but they are only ideas and guesses so if you can't even imagine yourself what it would be like you can't explain it to anyone else.  If we can see a color that no one else has ever seen, there is no way to explain that color because there is no way to describe something that has no similarities in the person's previous experience.  I can accept that we can perhaps manipulate time, not fear any consequences of it, but that it doesn't exist, just can't fathom it.  I can't conceive that we can enjoy one moment without the resident relative experiences of what has been.  I need to know I can access all my experiences. 

Just wanted to throw in that not everyone believes that time ceases to exist.  I have chanced upon some websites whose authors don't believe time ceases completely, tho it changes, undoubtedly in the spiritual realm-- can't recall them now, I didn't mark them tho I should have. 

[WhiteWings]

Just wanted to throw in that not everyone believes that time ceases to exist.  I have chanced upon some websites whose authors don't believe time ceases completely, tho it changes, undoubtedly in the spiritual realm-- can't recall them now, I didn't mark them tho I should have. 

It doesn't really matter how we think about this subject. I think it has added value; but not for your chances of salvation.
What we think, or know, doesn't affect reality....

[WhiteWings]

Scientists are now saying that there must be at least 5 and posibly as many as 10 or 12 dimentions of existance. We can only experience 3 of them with our 5 senses but that does not mean that they are not there.

IMO time is the 4th dimension.
Some say color is the 5th dimension.
But then taste should be another dimension. I'm not so sure about that... Altough taste ans smell gives extra dimension to food.
So food has at least 7 dimension  :laughing7:

[ScarletWren]

[
It doesn't really matter how we think about this subject. I think it has added value; but not for your chances of salvation.
What we think, or know, doesn't affect reality....

I agree wholeheartedly.  But then again, what we think about any of the subjects we discuss over and over doesn't affect reality either.  Yet we do discuss our viewpoints.  It helps us to sort our thoughts, maybe get another perspective, get to know our fellow travellers.

No one has a 'chance' at salvation.  It is a sure thing.  Salvation from sin is only part of all of this.  As Job said--we are God's workmanship and He has a desire for the work of His hands. 

[ScarletWren]

Scientists are now saying that there must be at least 5 and posibly as many as 10 or 12 dimentions of existance. We can only experience 3 of them with our 5 senses but that does not mean that they are not there.

IMO time is the 4th dimension.
Some say color is the 5th dimension.
But then taste should be another dimension. I'm not so sure about that... Altough taste ans smell gives extra dimension to food.
So food has at least 7 dimension  :laughing7:

I'll 'bite' into that :bgdance: