Kolasis

[sven]

is there sure proof that kolasis means correction?

are there sources from the time when the NT was written that it had the meaning of correct people?

[rosered]

is there sure proof that kolasis means correction?

are there sources from the time when the NT was written that it had the meaning of correct people?

Hi Sven ,

Have been reading some of your posts ,
  you do a good job  communicating   with the language barrier and all ,
keep up the good work bro .


  I see this  greek word  kolasis  as correction as well ..


http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2851&t=KJV

[WhiteWings]

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

In addition, Augustine's reasoning does not hold up in light of
Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is
used twice—with God and with something temporal. "In accord with
the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested
now...according to the injunction of the eonian God" (Ro. 16:25, 26
CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even
though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God
eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. "And the everlasting mountains
were scattered....His ways are everlasting" (Hab. 3:6). Mountains
are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God's
ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal.
Matthew 25:46 contains an additional clue confirming the temporary
nature of God's judgment. The Greek word, translated "punishment,"
is kolasis. William Barclay, world-renowned Greek scholar,
translator, and author of the popular Bible commentary, The Daily
Study Bible and New Testament Words, notes:
The Greek word for punishment here [Mt. 25:46] is kolasis,
which was not originally an ethical word at all. It
originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow
better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature
kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment.
6
Thomas Talbott, philosophy professor at Willamette University
in Oregon and author of The Inescapable Love of God, explained:
According to Aristotle, there is a difference between revenge
and punishment; the latter (kolasis) is inflicted in
the interest of the sufferer, the former (timōria) in the interest
of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.
Plato also appealed to the established meaning of
kolasis as support for his theory that virtue could be
taught: "For if you will consider punishment (kolasis)...and
what control it has over wrong-doers, the facts will inform
you that men agree in regarding virtue as procured." Even
where a punishment may seem harsh and unforgiving,
more like retribution than parental chastisement, this in no
way excludes a corrective purpose. Check out the punish28
Hope Beyond Hell
ment that Paul prescribes in I Corinthians 5:5. One might
never have guessed that, in prescribing such a punishment—
that is, delivering a man to Satan for the destruction
of the flesh—Paul had in mind a corrective purpose, had
Paul not explicitly stated the corrective purpose himself
("that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus").
So as this text illustrates, even harsh punishment of
a seemingly retributive kind can in fact serve a redemptive
purpose.7-9
"And these will go away into everlasting [aionian] punishment
[kolasis], but the righteous into eternal [aionian] life" (Mt. 25:46).
Isn't it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting
punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately
understood?

Kolasis
And all these will go away into everlasting [aionion]
punishment [kolasis].
(Mt. 25:46)
According to William Barclay, kolasis originally meant the pruning
of trees to make them grow better. He wrote, "I think it's true to
say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used for
anything but remedial punishment."1 How ironic that the text most
often used to support an eternal hell is, in fact, one that strongly
opposes it when accurately understood. (See Aion in Chapter 1).

[WhiteWings]

http://search.auburn.edu/

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not
endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that
aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the
fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment
(Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is
speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond
time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal
dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present
possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The
Father's commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and
Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

[WhiteWings]

Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally usedaidion to denote endless, and always used
aiónion to describe temporary duration. Dr. Mangey, in his edition of Philo, says he never usedaiónion
to interminable duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matthew, xxv:46, precisely as Christ used it.
"It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case,
but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting
punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed
by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of
Christ.

5. THE WORD TRANSLATED PUNISHMENT MEANS IMPROVEMENT.
The word is Kolasin. It is thus authoritavely defined: Greenfield, "Chastisement, punishment."
Hedericus, "The trimming of the luzuriant branches of a tree or vine to improve it and make it
fruitful."Donnegan, "The act of clipping or pruning --restriction, restraint, reproof, check,
chastisement." Grotius, "The kind of punishment which tends to the improvement of the criminal, is
what the Greek philosophers called kolasis or chastisement." Liddell, "Pruning, checking, punishment,
chastisement, correction." Max Muller, "Do we want to know what was uppermost in the minds of those
who formed the word for punishment, the Latin pæna or punio, to punish, the root pu in Sanscrit, which
means to cleanse, to purify, tells us that the Latin derivation was originally formed, not to express mere
striking or torture, but cleansing, correcting, delivering from the stain of sin." That it had this meaning
in Greek usage we cite Plato:(55) "For the natural or accidental evils of others, no one gets angry, or
admonishes, or teaches or punishes (kolazei) them, but we pity those afflicted with such misfortunes. **
For if, O Socrates, you will consider what is the design of punishing (kolazein) the wicked, this of itself
will show you that men think virtue something that may be acquired; for no one punishes (kolazei) the
wicked, looking to the past only, simply for the wrong he has done,--that is, no one does this thing who
does not actLIKE A WILD BEAST, desiring only revenge, without thought --hence he who seeks to punish
(kolazein) with reason, does not punish for the sake of the past wrong deed, ** but for the sake of the
future, that neither the man himself who is punished, may do wrong again, nor any other who has seen
him chastised. And he who entertains this thought, must believe that virtue may be taught, and he
punishes (kolazei) for the purpose of deterring from wickedness." Like many other words this is not
always used in its exact and full sense. The apocrypha employs it as the synonym of suffering,
regardless of reformation. See Wis. iii:11, xvi:1; I Mac. vii:7. See also Josephus.(56) It is found but four
times in the New Testament. Acts iv:21, the Jews let John and Peter go, "finding nothing further how
they might punish them" (kolazo). Did they not aim to reform them? Was not their punishment to cause
them to return to the Jewish fold? From their standpoint the word was certainly used to convey the idea
of reformation. 1 John iv:18. "Fear hathtorment." Here the word "torment" should be restraint. It is thus
translated in the Emphatic Diaglot. The idea is, if we have perfect love we do not fear God, but if we
fear we are restrained from loving him. "Fear hath restraint." The word is used here with but one of its
meanings. In 2 Peter ii:9, the apostle uses the word as our Lord did: the unjust are reserved unto the day
of judgement to be punished (kolazomenous). This accords exactly with the lexicography of the word,
and the general usage in the Bible and in Greek literature agrees with the meaning given by the
lexicographers. Now, though the word rendered punishment is sometimes used to signify suffering
alone, by Josephus and others, surely Divine inspiration will use it in its exact sense. We must therefore
be certain that in the New Testament, when used by Jesus to designate divine punishment, it is generally
used with its full meaning. The lexicographers and Plato, above, show us what that is, suffering,
restraint, followed by correction, improvement.
From this meaning of the word, torment is by no means excluded. God does indeed torment his
children when they go astray. He is a "consuming fire," and burns with terrible severity towards us
when we sin, but it is not because he hates but because he loves us. He is a refiner's fire tormenting the
immortal gold of humanity in the crucible of punishment, until the dross of sin is purged away. Mal.
ii:2,3, "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is
like a refiner's fire and like fuller's soap. And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall
purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold or silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering
in righteousness." Therefore kolasis is just the word to describe his punishments. They do for the soul
what pruning does for the tree, what the crucible of the refiner does for the silver ore.
Even if aiónion and kolasis were both of doubtful signification, and were we only uncertain as to their
meaning we ought to give God the benefit of the doubt and understand the word in a way to honor him,
that is, in a limited sense, but when all but universal usage ascribes to aiónion limited duration, and the
word kolasin is declared by all authorities to mean pruning, discipline, it is astonishing that a Christian
teacher should be found to imagine that when both words are together, they can mean anything else than
temporary punishment ending in reformation, especially in a discourse in which it is expressly declared
that the complete fulfillment was in this life, and within a generation of the time when the prediction
was uttered.
Therefore, (1) the fulfillment of the language in this life, (2) the meaning of aiónion, (3) and the
meaning of kolasis, demonstrate that the penalty threatened in Matt. xxv:46, is a limited one. It is a
threefold cord that human skill cannot break. Prof. Tayler Lewis thus translates Matt. xxv:46. "These
shall go away into the punishment (the restraint, imprisonment,) of the world to come, and those into the
life of the world to come." And he says "that is all that we can etymologically or exegetically make of
the word in this passage."
Hence, also, the zoen aiónion (life eternal) is not endless, but is a condition resulting from a good
character. The intent of the phrase is not to teach immortal happiness, nor does kolasin aiónion indicate
endless punishment. Both phrases, regardless of duration refer to the limited results wronging or
blessing others, extending possibly through Messiah's reign until "the end" (1 Cor. xv.). Both describe
consequences of conduct to befall those consequences antedate the immortal state.

DID JESUS EMPLOY THE POPULAR PHRASEOLOGY?
It is often remarked that as, according to Josephus, the Jews in our Savior's times believed in endless
punishment, Jesus must have taught the same doctrine, as "he employed the terms the Jews used." But
this is not true, as we have shown. Christ and his apostles did not employ the phraseology that the Jews
used to describe this doctrine. As we have shown Philo used athanaton and ateleuteton meaning
immortal, and interminable. He says,(59)zoe apothneskonta aeikai tropon tina thanaton athanaton
upomeinon kai ateleuteton, "to live always dying, and to undergo an immortal and interminable death."
He also employs aidion, but not aiónion.(60) Josephus says: "They, the Pharisees, believe 'the souls of
the bad are allotted aidios eirgmos, to an eternal prison, and punished with adialeiptos timoria, eternal
retribution." In describing the doctrine of the Essenes, Josephus says they believe "the souls of the bad
are sent to a dark and tempestuous cavern, full of adialeiptos timoria, incessant punishment." But the
phraseology of Jesus and the apostles olethros aiónios or aióniou kriseos "eternal chastisement," or
"eternal condemnation." The Jews contemporary with Jesus call retribution aidios, or adialeiptos
timoria, while the Savior calls it aiónios krisis, or kolasis aiónios, and the apostles olethros aiónios,
everlasting destruction; and puros aiónios, eternal fire. Had Jesus and his apostles used the terms
employed by the Jews to whom they spake, we should be compelled to admit that they taught the
popular doctrine. See this point further elucidated at the end of this volume on the word Aidios.
"To live always dying and undergo an endless death," is the language of "orthodox" pulpits, and of the
Greek Jews, but our Savior and his apostles carefully avoided such horrible blasphemy as to charge God
with being the author of so diabolical a cruelty.
Says a learned scholar:(61) "Aiónios is a word of sparing occurrence among ancient classical Greek
writers; nor is it by any means the common term employed by them to signifyeternal. On the contrary,
they much more frequently make use of aidios, aei ón, or some similar mode of speech, for this
purpose. . . . To me it appears that the Seventy, by choosing aiónios to represent olam, testify that
they did not understand the Hebrew word to signify eternal. Had they so understood it, they would
certainly have translated it by some more decisive word; some term, which, like aidios is more
commonly employed in Greek, to signify that which has neither beginning no end."
Let us now allude to the other texts in the New Testament in which the word is applied to punishment.
"NEVER FORGIVENESS --ETERNAL DAMNATION."
Matt. xii:32. "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this
world, neither in the world to come." Parallel passages: Mark iii:29. "But he that shall blaspheme
against the Holy Ghost hath never (aióna) forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal (aiónion) damnation."
Luke xii:10. "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but
unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven." Literally, "neither in this age
nor the coming," that is, neither in the Mosaic, nor the Christian age or dispensation. but then, these
ages will both end, and in the dispensation of the fullness of times, or ages, all are to be redeemed,
(Eph. i:10.) Mark iii:29 is the same as Matt. xii:32. The Greek differs slightly, and is rendered literally,
"has not forgiveness to the age, but is liable to age-lasting judgment." The thought of the Savior is, that
those who should attribute his good deeds to an evil spirit would be so hardened that his religion would
have difficulty in affecting them. Endless damnation is not thought of, and cannot be extorted from the
language.
In the New Testament the "end of the age," and "ages" is a common expression, referring to what has
now passed. See Col. i:26, Heb. ix:26, Matt. xiii:39, 40, 49, xxiv:3. Says Locke(62) "The nation of the
Jews were the kingdom and people God whilst the law stood. And this kingdom of God, under the
Mosaic constitution was called aión outos, this age, or as it is commonly translated, this world. But the
kingdom of God was to be under the Messiah, wherein the economy and constitution of the Jewish
church, and the nation itself, that in opposition to Christ adhered to it, was to be laid aside, is in the New
Testament called aión mellon, the world or age to come."
Another writer(63) adds: "Why the times under the law, were called kronoi aiónioi, we may find reason
in their jubilees, which were aiónes, "secula," or "ages," by which all the time under the law, was
measured; and so kronoi aiónioi; is used, 2 Tim. i:9. Tit. i:2. And so aiónes are put for the times of the
law, or the jubilees, Luke i:70, Acts iii:21, 1 Cor. ii:7, x:11, Eph. iii:9, Col. i:26, Heb. ix:26. And so God
is called the rock of aiónon, of ages, Isa. xxvi:4, in the same sense that he is called the rock of Israel,
Isa. xxx:29, i. e. the strength and support of the Jewish state;-- for it is of the Jews the prophet here
speaks. So Exod. xxi:6, eis ton aióna signifies not as we translate it, "forever," but "to the jubilee;"
which will appear if we compare Lev. xxv:39-41, and Exod. xxi:2."
Pearce(64) in his commentary, says "Rather, neither in this age, nor in the age to come: i. e., neither in
this age when the law of Moses subsists, nor in that also, when the kingdom of heaven, which is at
hand, shall succeed to it. The Greek aión, seems to signify age here, as it often does in the New
Testament, (see chap. xiii:40; xxiv:3; Col. i:26; Eph. iii:5, 21.) and according to its most proper
signification. If this be so, then this age means the Jewish one, the age while their law subsisted and
was in force; and the age to come (see Heb. vi:5; Eph. ii:7.) means that under the Christian
dispensation."
Wakefield observes:(65) "Age, aióni; i. e., the Jewish dispensation which was then in being, or the
Christian, which was going to be."
Clarke:(66) "Though I follow the common translation, (Matt. xii:31, 32.) yet I am fully satisfied the
meaning of the words is, neither in this dispensation, viz., the Jewish, nor in that which is to come, the
Christian. Olam ha-bo, the world to come, is a constant phrase for the times of the Messiah, in the
Jewish writers." See also Hammond, Rosenmuller, etc.,(67). Take Hebrews ix:26, as an example. "For
then must he (Christ) often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos, literal world) but
now once in the end of the world (aiónon, age) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of
himself." What world was at its end when Christ appeared? Indubitably the Jewish age. The world or
age to come (aión) must be the Christian dispensation, as in 1 Cor. x:11, where Paul says that upon him
and his contemporaries "the ends of the world are come."
These passages state in strong language the heinous nature of the sin referred to. The age or world to
come is not beyond the grave, but it is the Christian dispensation. It had a beginning eighteen centuries
ago, and it will end when Jesus delivers the kingdom to God, the Father. (1 Cor. xv).
EVERLASTING FIRE.
Matt. xviii:8. "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it
is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands, or two feet, to be cast
into everlasting fire." Matt. xxv:41 uses the same phraseology. "The everlasting fire, prepared for the
Devil and his angels." Also Jude 7. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like
manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an
example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
It is better to enter into the Christian life maimed, that is deprived of some social advantage
comparable to an eye, foot, or hand, than to keep all worldly advantages, and suffer the penalty of
rejecting Christ, typified by fire, is the meaning of Matt. xviii:8; and Jude 7 teaches that Sodom and
Gomorrah are an example of eternal fire. But that fire has expired. That the fire referred to is not
endless is shown by the use of the term in the Bible. "God is a consuming fire," (Heb. xii:29,) but it is a
"Refiner's fire." (Mal. iii:2-3.) It consumes the evil and refines away the dross of error and sin. This
corroborates the meaning we have shown to belong to the word expressive of the fire's duration. But
whatever may be the purpose of the fire, it is not endless, it is aiónian. Benson(68) well says: "The fire
which consumed Sodom, &c., might be called eternal, as it burned till it had utterly consumed them,
beyond the possibility of their being inhabited or rebuilt. But the word will have a yet more emphatical
meaning, if (as several authors affirm) that fire continued to burn a long while."

[sven]

I checked some verses in the LXX

Ezechiel 43:10-11

And thou, son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may cease from their sins; and shew its aspect and the arrangement of it. And they shall bear their punishment (kolasis) for all the things that they have done: and thou shalt describe the house, and its entrances, and the plan thereof, and all its ordinances, and thou shalt make known to them all the regulations of it, and describe them before them: and they shall keep all my commandments, and all my ordinances, and do them.

I think this verse implies corrective punishment

Ezechiel 44:10-14 maybe aswell

But as for the Levites who departed far from me when Israel went astray from me after their imaginations, they shall even bear their iniquity. Yet they shall minister in my sanctuary, being porters at the gates of the house, and serving the house: they shall slay the victims and the whole-burnt-offerings for the people, and they shall stand before the people to minister to them. Because they ministered to them before their idols, and it became to the house of Israel a punishment (kolasis) of iniquity; therefore have I lifted up my hand against them, saith the Lord God. And they shall not draw nigh to me to minister to me in the priests' office, nor to approach the holy things of the children of Israel, nor to approach my holy of holies: but they shall bear their reproach for the error wherein they erred.  They shall bring them to keep the charges of the house, for all the service of it, and for all that they shall do.

what to you think?

what means punishment of iniquity?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Their punishment was, they could only minister to man and not God. It is a picture of what is going to happen as He fulfills the tabernacle pattern we talked about. He said (when He appears) He would rather that we were cold (outer court) or hot (Holy of Holies), but if we are lukewarm (inner court), He will spew us out of His mouth.

To whom much is given, much is expected, and the inner court priesthood is expected to continue to press in thru the veil to be conformed into the image of the High Priest capable of ministering to both God and man, and not just be permanent pew sitters content in what they have been given. Blessings....

[sven]

so you mean both verses imply a corrective punishment? I had some language difficulties here

do you think Ezechiel 18:30-31 also implies a corrective punishment in the context? - at least the translators of the LXX might have understand so, thats the point.

I will judge you, O house of Israel, saith the Lord, each one according to his way: be converted, and turn from all your ungodliness, and it shall not become to you the punishment (kolasis) of iniquity. Cast away from yourselves all your ungodliness wherein ye have sinned against me; and make to yourselves a new heart and a new spirit: for why should ye die, O house of Israel?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's what I was shown out of it many years ago. Reading the scriptures only thinking it's talking about natural literal Israel, is the problem. Who was He talking to before 1948 then?

The tabernacle is a pattern of everything that IS or ever will be, because it is a pattern of MAN, a pattern of Christ in MAN, and a pattern of God in Christ in MAN, and even of the natural world as well as the spiritual. It's also a time line. This is why the spiritual messages contained in the pattern speak to 100 AD man the same as 2009 AD man.

For something to be truth it has to mean the same as it did 2000 years ago, SPIRITUALLY, as it does today, else God is a respecter of persons. Having those spiritual truths revealed to us means that man of Spirit is increasing in us until He completely fills the pattern, and US. Blessings....

[FineLinen]

is there sure proof that kolasis means correction?

are there sources from the time when the NT was written that it had the meaning of correct people?

Hi Sven ,

Have been reading some of your posts ,
  you do a good job  communicating   with the language barrier and all ,
keep up the good work bro .


  I see this  greek word  kolasis  as correction as well ..


http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2851&t=KJV

And kolasis is rooted in kolazo!

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2849&t=KJV

[rosered]

is there sure proof that kolasis means correction?

are there sources from the time when the NT was written that it had the meaning of correct people?

Hi Sven ,

Have been reading some of your posts ,
  you do a good job  communicating   with the language barrier and all ,
keep up the good work bro .


  I see this  greek word  kolasis  as correction as well ..


http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2851&t=KJV

And kolasis is rooted in kolazo!

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2849&t=KJV

it sure is !!  Hi bro , FineLinen, 
Iam feeling a little curbed and restrained myself these days ,hee hee 
Oh but I know ,it is for my own good
  for God is faithful as promised  :HeartThrob:
  still here, trusting  His Wisdom and trying to be patient , waiting on the Lord .