.

[Lamentation]

.

[Molly]

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely (as our founders knew well).

All power, that is, except the power of God.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

--Mat 5

[martincisneros]

"Out of the Flames" by Lawrence and Nancy Goldstone is the MUST READ on this subject that gives an account of the trial, Servetus's life trying to avoid Calvin under the alias Michel de Villeneuve, and info on what became of Servetus's book, Christianismi Restitutio.  Contrary to the history books, Servetus was the discoverer of Pulminary Circulation.  Nearly a century before the one that it's normally attributed to.  A brilliant, brilliant renaissance man and an important though usually overlooked Reformer.

[firstborn888]

Also note his death sentence was a result of him questioning orthodox trinity doctrine.   :sigh:

[martincisneros]

What's odd to me is that I've heard some say -- can't remember if it's in the book I previously mentioned on this -- that Servetus believed in the Trinity, but just not in John Calvin's version of the Trinity.  I haven't read the Restoration of Christianity, Against the Trinity, and another work or two attributed to Servetus, so I can't give first hand info on that.  Just what I've heard.  When there's only about 3 books in existance from something written 500 years ago, as in the case of the Restoration of Christianity, they tend to want an obsene amount of money for you to have a peak at the books, although I did hear a few years ago that reprints were in the works.  I don't know if they're out yet, either through the general, regular bookstores or through some of the societies that celebrate the memory of Servetus.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Nothing unusual, there are people here who seem to have no problem with executing people if the bible says they must die.

[Molly]

Calvin is a smart man.  Where in the New Testament is he reading that you can murder people who disagree with you?  I must have missed that part.

[firstborn888]

Calvin is a smart man.  Where in the New Testament is he reading that you can murder people who disagree with you?  I must have missed that part.

Martin Luther did it too. Must be a 'dark age' thing....

[Molly]

Calvin is a smart man.  Where in the New Testament is he reading that you can murder people who disagree with you?  I must have missed that part.

Martin Luther did it too. Must be a 'dark age' thing....

Martin Luther? :mshock:

I didn't know that.  They left that part out of the movie.

That is really scary.  Are you sure?

[firstborn888]

Calvin is a smart man.  Where in the New Testament is he reading that you can murder people who disagree with you?  I must have missed that part.

Martin Luther did it too. Must be a 'dark age' thing....

Martin Luther? :mshock:

I didn't know that.  They left that part out of the movie.

That is really scary.  Are you sure?

It's much worse than you can possibly imagine Molly. An excerpt:
"Luther's Role in the Suppression of the Peasant's Revolt
Perhaps the best insight into the character of Luther is his handling of the peasants' revolt of 1525. The peasants of Germany, which comprise about 80 percent of the population, lived in the most abject and degrading conditions. In 1525, the peasants, in reaction against the tyranny of the nobles, revolted. The thousands of revolting peasants, armed only with scythes, forks and knives, were no match for the nobles' military might. The leaders of the peasants, thinking that Luther would be on their side, appealed to him to support their just struggle. Luther, who was protected from the papacy by the same German nobles the peasants were revolting against, vehemently denounced the rising. He actively encouraged the nobles the suppress the revolt by violent means. In his pamphlet addressed to the princes and nobles entitled Against the Murderous Peasants he said:

   Let all who are able, cut them down, slaughter and stab them, openly or in secret, and remember that there is nothing more poisonous, noxious and utterly devilish than a rebel.    

To Luther, the abolition of Serfdom, which the peasants demanded, was "against the gospels" and amounts to nothing more than robbery.

Urged on by their new found spiritual leader, the nobles and their armies suppressed the revolts; and with savage force. Molten pitch and sulfur were poured upon the peasants. As for those who were taken alive, the treatment of them were barbaric. For instance, one batch of 82 peasants had their eyes gorged out. The treatment of the peasants that were killed in combat was no better. When, in one battle, a five thousand strong retreating army of peasants were killed, their bodies were hung from trees all over the countryside. And in one district, the stench from the bodies of over 16,000 peasants that were hastily buried was so revolting that it kept travelers away for years. For the leaders of the rebels a special form of torture awaits them: their flesh was literally torn off with red hoot pincers. In the peasants' revolt alone more than 100,000 peasants were slain.

Thus, in one fell swoop, this German religious reformer, anxious to get back to the original purity of Christianity, had condoned the killing of more Christians than the Roman Empire, in its pagan years, ever did.


http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/luther.html

[Molly]

Oh..they did have some of that in the movie.  The peasants were dragging the Catholic priests out of the church and murdering them.  Luther saying, this is not what I envisioned.  So his crime was supporting his noble supporters against the peasants.  It just shows how difficult it is to thread your way safely through this life--discerning good from evil--and taking the right stand.  Imagine if he were able to broker something more equitable between the peasants and the lords.  But power does not like to give up power without a fight.  The feudal system (which some would like to return to) is a very evil system.  It makes you realize how precious our middle class is (which is fast disappearing).  The middle class stabilizes a free society.

[martincisneros]

Didn't Luther also play a part in the slaughter of the Anabaptists?

[Molly]

Calvin is a smart man.  Where in the New Testament is he reading that you can murder people who disagree with you?  I must have missed that part.

Martin Luther did it too. Must be a 'dark age' thing....

Or the sort of mentality that brought about the Dark Age.

The dark age was brought about by the collapse of the monetary system, such events always followed by a form of totalitarianism which was fostered by the church.  One on top, many on the bottom--the pyramid system of governance.  There can be no freedom under such a system.  Hence, Christ tends to get thrown out with the bathwater, leaving all in total darkness when the vail drops.  But, I'm surprised at Luther because he saw the justification by faith.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[firstborn888]

Didn't Luther also play a part in the slaughter of the Anabaptists?

Yes, that's right. It wasn't just the peasant revolt. These were barbaric times and barbaric men who were not at all manifesting the Spirit of Christ but the spirit of religion.

[martincisneros]

Martin Luther contributed to the Holocaust of World War 2.  Anyone that goes :mshock: to that simply hasn't spent much time with the rest of the Tentmaker site 'cause Gary's got some whoopers documented on this web site.  Here's the book tying Luther and Hitler together that's on the Tentmaker site, and this isn't the only book that's been written like this.  You can study this as deeply as you'd like, almost anywhere.  Even John Hagee documents some of this stuff in his cheeze whiz writings:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor.html

[Andromeda_Organa]

http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm

Servetus pleaded to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but Calvin and the city council refused the quicker death method. Other Protestant churches throughout Switzerland advised Calvin that Servetus be condemned but not executed. Calvin ignored their pleas and Servetus was burned at the stake on October 27, 1553. Servetus was screaming as he was literally baked alive from the feet upward and suffered the heat of the flames for 30 minutes before finally succumbing to one of the most painful and brutal death methods possible. Servetus had written a theology book, a copy of which Calvin had strapped to the chest of Servetus. The flames from the burning book rose against Servetus' face as he screamed in agony.
John Calvin was proud of his killing of Servetus, bragging and celebrating. Many theological and state leaders criticized Calvin for the unwarranted killing of Servetus, but it fell on deaf ears as Calvin advised others to do the same. Calvin wrote much in following years in a continual attempt to justify his burning of Servetus. Some people claim Calvin favored beheading, but this does not fit charges of heresy for which the punishment as written by Calvin earlier was to be burning at the stake. Calvin had made a vow years earlier that Servetus would never leave Geneva alive if he were ever captured, and Calvin held true to his pledge.
Another victim of Calvin's fiery zeal was Gentile of an Italian sect in Geneva, which also numbered among its adherents Alciati and Gribaldo. More or less Unitarian in their views, they were required to sign a confession drawn up by Calvin in 1558. Gentile signed it reluctantly, but in the upshot he was condemned and imprisoned as a perjurer. He escaped only to be twice incarcerated at Berne where, in 1566, he was beheaded. Calvin also had thirty-four (34) women burned at the stake after accusing them of causing a plague that had swept through Geneva in 1545.

John Calvin's actions were very paganistic like his mentor, Saint Augustine.

Jesus and all of the Apostles would have abhorred and condemn these blatant mass murders.

He was a mysoginist too.

[Andromeda_Organa]

Calvin is a smart man.  Where in the New Testament is he reading that you can murder people who disagree with you?  I must have missed that part.

Martin Luther did it too. Must be a 'dark age' thing....

Martin Luther? :mshock:

I didn't know that.  They left that part out of the movie.

That is really scary.  Are you sure?

He also boasted that he hit his wife to correct her and that if a woman died in childbirth it didn't matter b/c that's all they were good for.

[sven]

Martin Luther?

I didn't know that. They left that part out of the movie.

he was one of the worst antisemitic people i know, the Nazis called him a Prophet and quoted his literature when beginning to persecute the Jews.

He also told to persecute and kill the anabaptists, who believed in universalism as far as i know

[Andromeda_Organa]

Martin Luther?

I didn't know that. They left that part out of the movie.

he was one of the worst antisemitic people i know, the Nazis called him a Prophet and quoted his literature when beginning to persecute the Jews.

He also told to persecute and kill the anabaptists, who believed in universalism as far as i know

I know. ANd I'm LUtheran.