The most popular Christian on YouTube just made a video about Hell and Satan

[Paul]

Up until now he's just made videos about creationism/proving God is real. This might be hard to watch; it's as stereotypical as it gets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXvY4XAfdg

[martincisneros]

I couldn't access my martincisneros account, so I was rash in starting another account rather than waiting it out, so I did the revdrmartincisneros thing because I wanted to be abundantly plain that it was me raising a stink again.  I'll probably eventually be able to get into my old account and I won't be using the new one any more, in all probability, but like the Blues Brothers "I was on a mission from God" :coolsmile: My comment's pending approval, but when it's probably not posted it will have at least pissed 'em off.  Here's what I posted:

"The moment that we catch our kids doing something, we NEED TO beat 'em for the rest of their lives because there's no such thing as punishment for sin unless it's eternal, eh? He's there for people every time but the last time. In the end, He's only as faithful as you were. Isn't that such a heart ravishing Gospel? The harder you push the free will argument for eternal hell, the more of a corner of double election you back yourself into, that ultimately it's that way 'cause God wanted DAMNATION."

[Paul]

Do you hear all the judgements he's making about your god?

[Paul Hazelwood]

This youtube thing could be fun.   I think I might buy a webcam.   I would love to post a video responce to this.

For instance,  He uses a point about someone not having any more questions as a point for his correctness which is false.


What do the translations of the bible that do not use the word hell tell us what we are saved from?

And according to his logic of the loving judge, lets be consistant.  Shouldn't judges therefore sentence all criminals to a torture chamber and be tortured for as long as their human life can be extended to allow it?

At the very least, considering we are human and do not have the divine loving power to banish someone to hell forever, then  all crimes, all of them,  every last one of them,  should simply have a life sentence.  No second chances, once you are convicted it is TOOOOO  LATE  there should be NO HOPE FOR YOU.

[SeekerSA]

I looked at the comments and they are all for.  Hence he approves nothing in opposition.

Box segregation mentality.  He is a young one and likely has a inferiority complex as do most of his friends probably.

It is a waste of time countering these folk, they are sooo brainwashed and we shall merely confuse them with facts.  They are still plugged into la-la land

[arcticmonster2003]

quote paul hazelwood

At the very least, considering we are human and do not have the divine loving power to banish someone to hell forever, then  all crimes, all of them,  every last one of them,  should simply have a life sentence.  No second chances, once you are convicted it is TOOOOO  LATE  there should be NO HOPE FOR YOU.

If you don't mind Paul, I would like to use the fact that there are, currently thousands (millions?) or people in prison that have multiple life sentences that are going to die in prison or death sentences, and knowing that, ask the important question, namely, do we, even those whom don't believe in an afterlife, really don't lose any sleep over it....do we?? do atheists?? Is the "we won't be able to live knowing people are in hell forever" argument really valid??

If you really think about it though, with the great number of atheists or people whom don't really believe in an afterlife whom are making our laws and laws around the world, it would seem unjust to then sentence a person to life in prison or the death sentence, which means, for the convicted, as far as they are concerned at least that "once you are convicted it is TOOOOO  LATE  there should be NO HOPE FOR YOU".

No second chances for Charles Manson getting out of prison?? The same reasoning here that is trying to make hell seem unjust also makes life sentences unjust (at least to people whom don't believe in an afterlife). I mean how can atheists live knowing that Charles Manson has no hope of getting out of prison till he dies, with death being all she wrote, no afterlife.....I think they are living just fine, aren't they, are they tormented day and night knowing there is no hope for people whom receive multiple life sentences?? Is there one person out there, whom doesn't believe in afterlife, that is losing sleep because Charles Manson is going to be locked up till he dies? (just an example)

If people whom do not believe in an afterlife give an idea of how we react knowing some people are condemned till final death, then that idea or example they are showing is that we'll do just fine?? Isn't it, aren't they doing fine with the idea?  Are they unjust then??

Also, with all the real christians out there whom do believe in eternal hell, how do they live with themselves??? There are some people whom I consider some real men of God whom believe in eternal hell, and their writings are in english, so there are no confusions about the words they use...how do these men live with themselves??? Are they evil??? I think not, but yet they live day by day......just as I do. I am really wondering about the argument that we won't be able to live knowing many are suffering....many are suffering right now...and I live....and I praise God....and I seek God...and glorify God. See what I mean?

Maybe a stretch, but are people (people whom don't believe in an afterlife) really losing sleep about heinous criminals whom are dying in prison? Are they unable to carry out their lives knowing that many people are going to die in prison this year?? Is this really a valid argument?? Perhaps it is, perhaps it is not, I'll leave it on my "to be determined" list.

[firstborn888]

Good point AM

As far as those suffering right now - we should not be sleeping well or living w/ourselves well but we are so calloused and evil that we are fine with it until it affects someone we really really care about - and then we are not fine with it.

I am so guilty of this because I (the flesh) get tired of being empathetic. Now, when something terrible happens to me I am very empathetic (misnomer) to myself and wish everyone else would be too.

Or when it's my baby that's sick or suffering suddenly it's not alright anymore.
We are (generally speaking) not as spiritual as we think/claim we are.

We intrinsically know that if we were 100% walking in the Spirit then we would remember those who are in distress as being in distress with them. I wouldn't discount the fact that when we become more perfected our walls come down - the ones which serve to emotionally insulate us from the plights of others .

IMO.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi AM,


I need to be more clear,  my sarcasm was directed to the guy in the video and his comparison.  Of course the video makers point was to non believers.

Non believers by and large believe in a system where the punishment fits the crime.   For the position of eternal destiny and mans life in the end really doesn't matter there is only one crime and one punishment.   And what else could eternal damnation be but a maximum sentance for that one crime (unbelief).

Therefore for the analogy to hold a Judge should consider any breach of the law a breach of the law,  so there should be one maximum sentence for everything.  In reality my sarcasm was to point out the ridiculousness of the analogy in the first place.


With that being said  I agree with the path your points seeks to take and that is if Gods righteousness is just then we will one day understand that.  Those in heaven will not grieve because they will understand what true righteousness is and whether we like the thought of eternal damnation or not is irrevalent.   What we like or dislike does not determine that truth.   

This is why analogies of reason should not be used which appeals to our senses, but hard biblical study and questioning the machine of religion that wants to drive the bibles interpretation rather than seeking  truth.

[arcticmonster2003]

Good point AM

As far as those suffering right now - we should not be sleeping well or living w/ourselves well but we are so calloused and evil that we are fine with it until it affects someone we really really care about - and then we are not fine with it.

I am so guilty of this because I (the flesh) get tired of being empathetic. Now, when something terrible happens to me I am very empathetic (misnomer) to myself and wish everyone else would be too.

Or when it's my baby that's sick or suffering suddenly it's not alright anymore.
We are (generally speaking) not as spiritual as we think/claim we are.

We intrinsically know that if we were 100% walking in the Spirit then we would remember those who are in distress as being in distress with them. I wouldn't discount the fact that when we become more perfected our walls come down - the ones which serve to emotionally insulate us from the plights of others .

IMO.

Yeah, those things are true, and I do find myself grieving more for others as I am filled more with the Holy Spirit. This also, has much to do with the fact on why we do not love the world, because people are being....destroyed.

[arcticmonster2003]

Hi AM,


I need to be more clear,  my sarcasm was directed to the guy in the video and his comparison.  Of course the video makers point was to non believers.

Non believers by and large believe in a system where the punishment fits the crime.   For the position of eternal destiny and mans life in the end really doesn't matter there is only one crime and one punishment.   And what else could eternal damnation be but a maximum sentance for that one crime (unbelief).

Therefore for the analogy to hold a Judge should consider any breach of the law a breach of the law,  so there should be one maximum sentence for everything.  In reality my sarcasm was to point out the ridiculousness of the analogy in the first place.


With that being said  I agree with the path your points seeks to take and that is if Gods righteousness is just then we will one day understand that.  Those in heaven will not grieve because they will understand what true righteousness is and whether we like the thought of eternal damnation or not is irrevalent.   What we like or dislike does not determine that truth.   

This is why analogies of reason should not be used which appeals to our senses, but hard biblical study and questioning the machine of religion that wants to drive the bibles interpretation rather than seeking  truth.

I understand, and I did know I took your quote a bit out of context, it was just handy at the moment.

[Transponder]

Good point AM

As far as those suffering right now - we should not be sleeping well or living w/ourselves well but we are so calloused and evil that we are fine with it until it affects someone we really really care about - and then we are not fine with it.

I am so guilty of this because I (the flesh) get tired of being empathetic. Now, when something terrible happens to me I am very empathetic (misnomer) to myself and wish everyone else would be too.

Or when it's my baby that's sick or suffering suddenly it's not alright anymore.
We are (generally speaking) not as spiritual as we think/claim we are.

We intrinsically know that if we were 100% walking in the Spirit then we would remember those who are in distress as being in distress with them. I wouldn't discount the fact that when we become more perfected our walls come down - the ones which serve to emotionally insulate us from the plights of others .

IMO.

Good post. It's the answer to Arctic above.

(1)Yes, though we do tend to be a bit remote from suffering humans (whether or not we think they deserve it) we still know it isn't good enough and wish we could do something or do more. In basis, we know it isn't a perfect world.

Translate that into Heaven and how can a heaven with a hell be perfect?

(2) When it's your own family and friends or neighbours, then it comes closer and theres little peace all the time they are suffering. Again, whether you think they deserve it or not. You still want to help.

But there's no help in hell. It's probably disloyalty to god even to wish there was.

As is the case with many of these arguments from what-it's -like-here; this is earth. Heaven isn't like earth. It's perfect. Or so we are told.

[firstborn888]

As is the case with many of these arguments from what-it's -like-here; this is earth. Heaven isn't like earth. It's perfect. Or so we are told.

Hey Trans! Where ya' been stranger?
- Byron

[Tony N]

The guy on youtube said that if we sin against an infinite God then we should receive an infinite sentence (or something to that effect).

I lay this problem to rest here:

http://saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html

Maybe in my horrid pride I think I have lain them to rest. Maybe I'm deceived.

I just don't think I am. What do you think?

Tony

[WhiteWings]

Eric wrote: 1) "God is eternal, hence sin is an eternal offense to Him."

Are we speaking of that infinite God that send His Son to preach: Love, forgive, love, forgive,.... ?

Eric continues: What is more, the only alternative to eternal punishment is worse, namely, to rob human beings of freedom and dignity by forcing them into heaven against their free choice. That would be "hell" since they do not fit in a place where everyone is loving and praising the Person they want most to avoid. Or, God's other choice is to annihilate His own image within His creatures. But this would be an attack of God on Himself.

Great reasoning Eric....
When people don't choose to take swim in the Lord swimming pool with cristal clear water doesn't automaticly mean they hate that pool more that a bath in hot lava. My guess is that they even prefer the Lords swimming pool.

Eric continues: Further, without eternal separation, there could be no heaven. Evil is contagious

So you go to hell to Eric that's for sure. Read the Holy Book and see that all are sinners. You included. You will infect Heaven so a lava bath for you too.

Eric, who claims to be "logical" and "reasonable" wrote: The only way to preserve an eternal place of good is to eternally separate all evil from it. The only way to have an eternal heaven is to have an eternal hell.

So basicly everyone that enters Heaven is 100% sin/evil free. If not the evil might start infecting within 5 mijon years.
If the standard is that all who enter Heaven are as spotless as Father/Son/HS it will be kinda empty....

Eric continues: Finally, if Christ's temporal punishment is sufficient for our sins eternally, then there is no reason why eternal suffering cannot be appropriate for our sins.

Then there is no reason either why Jesus had to come/suffer. Afteral He failed and own 'will'=sin overrides the devine wish/work of Jesus.....?

:2c:

[firstborn888]

The guy on youtube said that if we sin against an infinite God then we should receive an infinite sentence (or something to that effect).

I lay this problem to rest here:

http://saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html

Maybe in my horrid pride I think I have lain them to rest. Maybe I'm deceived.

I just don't think I am. What do you think?

Tony

Tony,
  I like your point here:
"Also, let's really think about what Eric is saying. He says it is actually worse to make someone go to heaven against their will than to have that person suffer in eternal torture in fire? He says that would be hell. Let's see, according to Eric, a person tearing at their flesh and screaming in torment for all eternity is so much better and enjoyable to the person should that person be forced against his will to enjoy all the wonderful things of heaven? I'm at a loss for words with such grand theological statements as Eric expounds!"

As ridiculous as it gets, but most modern adherers to ET doctrine have taken up this mantra that "God would be mean and a bully if He 'forced' everyone to have peace and joy if torment and agony is what they really really want"  :sigh:

They have totally lost the 'lost sheep' concept and adhere to a concept that many people are evil incarnate :thumbdown:

[WhiteWings]

firstborn,

I can understand that people believe in UR/ET/annihilation
There are verse that at least support that (a little bit).
But that is where it stops for me.
All denominations believe AFAIK that people are seperated and go to heaven or hell. (ignoring what hell really is)
That's decision is made for us not by.
What verse states people prefer being in hell?
On top of that ETs really love the hellish NDEs.
In those NDEs the victims ones that made a choice are always begging Jesus or God to let them out.
Weird why would they want out of the nice lavapit to endure even more torture in Heaven?

[firstborn888]

firstborn,

I can understand that people believe in UR/ET/annihilation

I understand that most don't understand that there is something lost in people that needs to be found. Most think it's a matter of convincing someone to become something that they want nothing to do with. See what I mean?

[DeeDee]

firstborn,

I can understand that people believe in UR/ET/annihilation

I understand that most don't understand that there is something lost in people that needs to be found. Most think it's a matter of convincing someone to become something that they want nothing to do with. See what I mean?

Byron, I see perfectly what you mean and I agree with you. No one is born evil I feel. Lots of people just get lost along the way due to circumstances etc. - i.e the lost sheep, yet the churches etc. try and teach that you must be a certain way and do certain things. I believe everyone can come to see the light if they are just approached in the right way and people show them patience.

[Transponder]

As is the case with many of these arguments from what-it's -like-here; this is earth. Heaven isn't like earth. It's perfect. Or so we are told.

Hey Trans! Where ya' been stranger?
- Byron

Hey man. I took some time out after some long debates. I suppose I had to think what I intended to achieve. I did not take up an invite to post a few months ago but I did this time. I may slip in a comment and discuss here and there but I think I don't see it as so all -fired important as i did last time round.

[firstborn888]

Hey man. I took some time out after some long debates. I suppose I had to think what I intended to achieve. I did not take up an invite to post a few months ago but I did this time. I may slip in a comment and discuss here and there but I think I don't see it as so all -fired important as i did last time round.

Is it just my screen or is that bottle of water turning just a tad bit purple?

[Andromeda_Organa]

Up until now he's just made videos about creationism/proving God is real. This might be hard to watch; it's as stereotypical as it gets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXvY4XAfdg

I couldn't get through the first 30 seconds- that stupid song :BangHead:

[Molly]

Up until now he's just made videos about creationism/proving God is real. This might be hard to watch; it's as stereotypical as it gets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXvY4XAfdg

I couldn't get through the first 30 seconds- that stupid song :BangHead:

LOL  I love that kid.  I consider him a miracle of God.

Who else could raise up these kids who have been purposely fed a steady diet of carnality from birth?

He's young.  And, he doesn't look like he's going to stop learning about God any time soon.

[Molly]

I couldn't access my martincisneros account, so I was rash in starting another account rather than waiting it out, so I did the revdrmartincisneros thing because I wanted to be abundantly plain that it was me raising a stink again.  I'll probably eventually be able to get into my old account and I won't be using the new one any more, in all probability, but like the Blues Brothers "I was on a mission from God" :coolsmile: My comment's pending approval, but when it's probably not posted it will have at least pissed 'em off.  Here's what I posted:

"The moment that we catch our kids doing something, we NEED TO beat 'em for the rest of their lives because there's no such thing as punishment for sin unless it's eternal, eh? He's there for people every time but the last time. In the end, He's only as faithful as you were. Isn't that such a heart ravishing Gospel? The harder you push the free will argument for eternal hell, the more of a corner of double election you back yourself into, that ultimately it's that way 'cause God wanted DAMNATION."

Martin, he has these post it notes on the end of his video.  I don't know what you think about this but he's not saying that hell is eternal.  Was that as a result of your post to him?  Also, what is double election?




"Hell is temporary,however those who go to hell await the judgment day, and are then cast into the Lake of Fire.  Quick note: Satan is not currently in Hell, rather, he will be cast into the Lake of Fire along with all who follow him on the day of judgment.  Quick note, Hell is the waiting place for the damned, who will be cast into the Lake of Fire on the day of judgment (Rev  20:14).  "

[WhiteWings]

Molly check out his site: http://www.thewaythetruth.com/
Chick tracts on the front page.
Does that answer your question?  :laughing7:

[firstborn888]

Also, what is double election?

double election = the saints were elected (predestined) for heaven and the sinners were elected (predestined) for hell.