.

[Lamentation]

.

[martincisneros]

I have zero doubts about it because of John chapter 8, John chapter 17, Ephesians 1, Titus 1:2, countless other Scriptures, countless other testimonies like the one you've shared, and countless personal experiences like the odd phenomenon of feeling as I was learning UR that I was regaining suppressed memories about it.  It was beyond conviction and confirmation of the Holy Spirit, the ministry of angels, or just the truths being buried deeply within me with each new revelation.  I remember the throne of God very specifically, the Mercy Seat, the Blood of Christ, His nail pierced wrists, etc.

Perhaps those that insist upon pre-existance and those that insist that there is no pre-existance are both 100% right.  Perhaps some pre-existed and some folks are much younger in the part of their gut that matters and that Jesus's redemptive work touches the deepest in the removal of sin. 

From my earliest youth -- earliest, earliest youth -- I've had knowledge that there was no way for me to have, memories that couldn't be explained in any other way, and I've never felt less than eons old.  But I absolutely do not believe in reincarnation until the resurrection, with the exception of through the gifts of the Spirit where you both pass along something extra from the Lord and something from yourself to another person, as when Moses laid hands on Joshua to pass on wisdom and as when St. Paul warned against laying hands on others hastily as a means of keeping one's self pure.  There's absolutely no such thing as covenants that have ever existed or that will ever be made that don't do this.  And I did advisedly mention John 8 at the start of this post, not for a reference but for a system of interpretation of the other references in the Scriptures to this subject.

[jabcat]

Hi there.  One "simple" yet profound scripture comes to my mind.  Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.  I don't see how something could return if it hadn't already been there before.  Body was dust, created, returns...spirit with God, in us for a season, returns.  My  :2c:.

[firstborn888]

Hi there.  One "simple" yet profound scripture comes to my mind.  Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.  I don't see how something could return if it hadn't already been there before.  Body was dust, created, returns...spirit with God, in us for a season, returns.  My  :2c:.

That's the link right there.  :thumbsup:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:

"We have always been"... was a thread quite a while back that so much as encompassed this thought of yours...

As I observe this subject, I find that it is not so much a "pre-existence", as much as TIME is a TEMPORAL existence of ours, which is amidst our ETERNAL existence... from which we came and to which we return...  :happygrin:

The parable of the LOST Son noted that he was WITH the Father, and then LEFT to go unto a FAR COUNTRY... then CAME BACK... (Luke 15:11-32)

Also the FATHER notes to JOB... that he has no memory of the Creation, but amidst that, GOD states that ALL the SONS of GOD were present at its foundation (Job 38:7)... ALL does not exclude ANY!!

The word "SONS" in Job 38:7 is the Hebrew word BEN... which is used universally in the OT referring to SONS, found in all geneologies, reference to offspring etc...

Also the word BEN is used in the very beginning of the book of Job several times, when referring to the male offspring of Job...  :dontknow:

These "SONS" in Job 38:7 are not ANGELS as is supposed by Traditional theologians... for there are several other words which refers to ANGELS in the OT -- such as MALAK, ...as well as the terms Seraphim, Cherubim, etc...

Though I do not have vivid memories of the Heavenly realm as does Martin, ...I do have a misty one or two, recalling them from my childhood... (I'm 63, so the ol' "memory"  :scratchhead:  just ain't, what it used to be!  :blush:)

That's all from me for now,  but it will be interesting how this thread develops...

peacE...
willieH   :angel4:

[CHB]

Hi Everyone,

I don't know if we have existed before or not but I don't see enough evidence in the scriptures to convince me yet. Perhaps I am not seeing things in the spirit, I don't know but I will give my controversial opinion. Feel free to correct me or give me more to think on please.

jabcat gave this scripture to prove that we existed before. (Ecc.12:7) It says "the spirit shall return unto God who gave it". In Hebrew, the meaning of this word can be, wind, breath, mind, spirit, breath of air.

So, this scripture sounds as if it is saying, our breath or air goes back to God. Nothing here to prove we preexisted.

The scriptures Martin gave prove to me we didn't preexist. In John 8, Jesus is talking about returning to the Father. Jesus says, "ye cannot tell whence I come or whither I go". if ye had known me, ye should have known the Father also". Jesus said, "ye are from beneath".  (verse 55) Yet ye have not known him. Chapter 17 does say, in verse 16, "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world". But Jesus was speaking about being one with his disciples. Spiritually speaking we are not of this world, but this doesn't prove we preexisted.

(Eph. 1) does say we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world and that we were predestinated but this doesn't prove preexistance. God just planned that we would exist and be chosen.
(Titus 1:2) just says we were promised immortality before the world began.

Willie said that in (Job 38:7) it talks about the sons of God and he believes this is referring to us. There is another reasoning to this. The sons of God could be brothers of Christ which were like him, because in (Psalms 45:7) it speaks of fellows.  These fellows could be the sons that are spoken of in Job. The Father chose Christ above his fellows, or those like Christ.

Just some things I was thinking about. If we did preexist there is not much hard evidence to go on. If anyone has more I would appreciate it.

CHB

[pneuma]

Seen this thread as I passed through to answer a pm and thought I would add my  :2c:

I don't beleive we existed as seperate beings before we were born into this world, I see it more as we were the rib in Christ that was taken out of Him to make His bride, or we were in Him the same as Levi was in Abraham and paid tithes before he was born into this world.

[Pierac]

Jewish "Ideal" Preexistence

In the English language, and certainly the way young people speak, we often speak about something that happened in the past as though it is happening in the present. For instance, a witness to a bank robbery might say, "And here I am standing in line minding my own business, when bursting through the door comes as a hooded bank robber. He tells us all to get on the floor. He waves his gun around and threatens us. Then he goes up to the teller and yells, 'Give me the money!'" We understand the events described occurred in the past, even though the narrative is in the present. Speaking of past events in the present is a peculiarity of the English language.

Most languages have peculiarities. The Hebrew mind and language has a peculiarity that English speakers are not accustomed to. They do the opposite of what I have just described. They often use the past tense or the present tense to speak of events yet future. The reason is that the Jews believed that whatever was determined in the mind of God existed before it came to be in history. God is the God who calls the things which do not exist as (already) existing (Rom. 4:17). God promised Abraham that He would give him the promised land and that he would be the father of many descendents. So sure is the fulfillment that sometimes the predictive language is in the past tense, as though it were already accomplished: "To your descendents I "have given" this land" (Gen 15:18). It came to be a common feature of Hebrew thinking that whatever God had decreed already preexisted (in plan and purpose) before it materialized on earth. "When the Jews wished to designate something as predestined, he spoke of it as already existing in heaven.

Similarly, the Bible speaks of Jesus as the Lamb of God who was crucified before the world began (Rev.13:8). Every Bible reader of course knows that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate in Palestine in the first century. But God ordained his crucifixion to happen before he even created the universe. Therefore, in God's mind, and in the Hebrew understanding, that which came to be had already been. The prophetic future was spoken of in the past tense. What God has decreed, He says is as good as done.

I'm pretty sure we did not pre-exist  :2c:

Paul

[willieH]

willieH: Hi CHB...  :happygrin:

Hi Everyone,

I don't know if we have existed before or not but I don't see enough evidence in the scriptures to convince me yet. Perhaps I am not seeing things in the spirit, I don't know but I will give my controversial opinion. Feel free to correct me or give me more to think on please.

jabcat gave this scripture to prove that we existed before. (Ecc.12:7) It says "the spirit shall return unto God who gave it". In Hebrew, the meaning of this word can be, wind, breath, mind, spirit, breath of air.

So, this scripture sounds as if it is saying, our breath or air goes back to God. Nothing here to prove we preexisted.

More to it than just "air" sis...  The SONS we are, are NOT just "MEAT" = FLESH/dust of the earth... Neither are we just "AIR" = BREATH...

GOD states in His WORD, that HE is the FATHER of SPIRITS... (Heb 12:9)

The word FATHER is more a point of EMERGENCE, than it is gender identity... If we EMEGE from GOD... it means we were PART of Him before we are what we are now, in this realm...

These things ARE, ...irregardless of our memory's ability to recall them... There are many things which memory does not or cannot regenerate... For instance:  What did you have for lunch on August 17nd of this year? Just because you can't remember, does not mean you did not eat what you did, nor does it negate that you had lunch.

John 1:9  States that the WORD is the LIGHT that LIGHTS every man that comes into the world...  HE is LIGHT, LIGHTING every man... (living in every man VIA that LIGHT)

EXAMPLE:  A male deer sires other deer... A male fish sires other fish... A male gorilla sires other gorillas... GOD is SPIRIT which sires other SPIRITS... SIRING means that the being emerged or was previously PART of the FATHER...

Before my daughter was my daughter, she was my sperm... which was PART of me, and EMERGED from ME... and combined with the egg of her mother... which was part of HER, which (my eve) was part of ME... so in essence... my daughter emerged in this realm from ME... she was a part of ME...  am I getting this premise across to you? hope so! (I loveya CHB!  :HeartThrob:)

If GOD IS (and He IS) our FATHER... then we must be SPIRITS... for our ORIGIN is found emerging from the ALMIGHTY SPIRIT which inhabits ETERNITY... (Is 57:15)  (living ETERNALLY [without beginning or end] ...IN Eternity via SPIRIT)

GOD also INHABITS the praises of HIS CHILDREN [Israel]... (Ps 22:3) "Praises" are not AIR... they are NOT PHYSICAL... they are SPIRIT... (living ETERNALLY [without beginning or end] IN those praises via SPIRIT)

Your current vision is that you LIVE in this realm alone... and that your EXISTENCE BEGAN its existence IN this realm...  but the Scriptures bear out that WE left eternity, temporarily (in time to learn G & E)... and then return to it...

In the parable of the LOST SON (Luke 15:11-32)... the SON which became LOST, was FIRST ...WITH... the FATHER (in eternity)... then TEMPORARILY left (into time)... then RETURNED PERMANENTLY (back to eternity)...  :dontknow:

This TIME realm HAD a BEGINNING, and shall HAVE an END... but both BEGIN and END in the same PLACE which is:  JESUS CHRIST who is ETERNAL...

If they both BEGIN from and END in the ETERNAL... then they [we] are found IN HIM, ...PRIOR to this realm, and  IN HIM, ...AFTER this realm... for HE never CHANGES:  (Heb 13:8) 

TIME is found entering and exiting in the same BEING:  JESUS CHRIST, who IS the Alpha and Omega... the beginning and the end, ...a being which has no beginning and no end!  :laughing7:

If CHRIST is our beginning and end... and HE never changes... and IS ETERNAL... then how can WE be otherwise CHB? 

For if our existence emerged from HIM that NEVER CHANGES... how can we be considered something "NEW"... or a variation which once was "not"?  Does not that represent CHANGE in and from HIM?

If WE are NOW, ...TEMPORAL, and as you propose, are bound to be ETERNAL... and ETERNAL means ALWAYS "IS"... than HOW may we be a part of something that ALWAYS "IS"...  when we had BEGINNING?  We can't... :mnah:

How can YHVH be ALL in ALL... and ALWAYS IS without BEGINNING or END, when He is become PART of something which had BEGINNING? 

Would that not relegate Him to be PARTIALLY -- NON-ETERNAL?  The portion of HIM which is ALL in us (we being entities that had BEGINNING?)

The only way it works and makes SENSE to me, is if GOD (which has NO beginning or end)... created a realm in which the premises of Good and Evil might be conveyed/imparted to HIS Children (His body), and that their ETERNAL existence YET within that ETERNAL REALM... was entered into the CREATED realm of TIME, for that PURPOSE...

Once the HEAD (God) has imparted this knowledge to His BODY (children), the temporal dissolves into an innecessity... like a bag which temporarily held your candy is discarded for it is no longer needed to hold the candy.

The process of LEARNING is working evidentially in this same way in this realm...

EXAMPLE:  Your "HEAD" reads a book on DRIVING a CAR... but the act (performed by the use of the BODY), must apply the KNOWLEDGE of the HEAD to the EXPERIENCE of the body, "stepping on the gas & steering the car, in order that one accomplishes DRIVING...

Until this is done, only the HEAD "knows" how to drive... the BODY is without the knowledge... until it, by the decision of the HEAD, it experiences "driving"...

I realize this is quite a finite view of GOD dealing with His Children/body... but then again... I am tied to this finite existence and must convey my beliefs by using its terminology...

I'll get to the rest of your post later, sis -- gotta go!  :friendstu:

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

[rosered]

    Jesus Christ was here before the world was


  proverbs 8   

  But Jesus told Nicodemus   he had to be born again  , he was first natural ,flesh/blood  human  [man]

  being born of Spirit   was what  Jesus was saying and Peter  tells how here
 

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever.

  to me we have no real proof of pre existance ...
   maybe   that little niece was seeing the Spriit of the Lord in you Brian ?


  my daughter  was 5  when she  was so sick and almost died
it was touch and go for  many days 
when she come home from the hospital  , I told  her   that I thank  Jesus she got to come home and be with me again  , and she told me so matter of a fact  I saw Jesus  mommy , He was in a Big chair   and I was under holding his leg because I was  so scared ,,,
  I said honey why was you afraid  you were with Jesus ?

  she said because of all the angels  mommy there was sooooo many angels  , I remeber that at clear as day , it was 15 years ago
  and Has increased my faith greatly ...   
I know He sits on the Throne of grace right now
  and not some future event  , my little girl had no preconcived ideas planted in her head , it was  just as the scriptures states out of the mouth of babes  is perfect praise !  and  I praise Him for that day ! and  no one can take that away ! 

[firstborn888]

Just some things I was thinking about. If we did preexist there is not much hard evidence to go on. If anyone has more I would appreciate it.

CHB

If you are born of incorruptible seed then you have always existed.

[rosered]

Just some things I was thinking about. If we did preexist there is not much hard evidence to go on. If anyone has more I would appreciate it.

CHB

If you are born of incorruptible seed then you have always existed.

  than that would only be by ''faith'' and not by sight   FB88?

  the natural /flesh body is dead  but the Spiritual body is alive/without sin 
  where as before it was the natual body that was alive /with sin
and the spiritual body was dead ?

[CHB]

Sorry Folks,

I have not been able to get back on the forum since yesterday. I keep getting this page that says "Page cannot be displayed". I had to connect straight into the modem in order to get back on. I have two computers in my house. I couldn't figure out what the problem was. Sometimes I can get on here and sometimes I can't.

Thanks willie, I see what you are saying and what you say makes sense but what about (Ecc. 9:5) the dead know not anything"? If we preexisted and return to God when we die wouldn't we know something? 

When we die and we breath our last breath, I always thought this was what returned to God? Do you think we go on to heaven as a spirit being when we die?

CHB

[Pierac]

When we die and we breath our last breath, I always thought this was what returned to God? Do you think we go on to heaven as a spirit being when we die?

CHB

No, if that was the case, what would be the purpose/need of the resurrection?

Paul

[firstborn888]

If you are born of incorruptible seed then you have always existed.

  than that would only be by "faith" and not by sight   FB88?

  the natural /flesh body is dead  but the Spiritual body is alive/without sin 
  where as before it was the natual body that was alive /with sin
and the spiritual body was dead ?

But the Word is outside of time. So at that point there is no 'before'.  :winkgrin:

I know it just sounds like I'm spouting science fiction  :thumbsup:

[willieH]

Sorry Folks,

I have not been able to get back on the forum since yesterday. I keep getting this page that says "Page cannot be displayed". I had to connect straight into the modem in order to get back on. I have two computers in my house. I couldn't figure out what the problem was. Sometimes I can get on here and sometimes I can't.

Thanks willie, I see what you are saying and what you say makes sense but what about (Ecc. 9:5) the dead know not anything"? If we preexisted and return to God when we die wouldn't we know something? 

When we die and we breath our last breath, I always thought this was what returned to God? Do you think we go on to heaven as a spirit being when we die?

CHB

While amongst finite and created circumstances, we do not have INFINITE awareness, memory or knowledge...

The portion of us which is in this realm [finite] must be completed, until RESURRECTION, it is incomplete... for CORRUPTION must put on INCORRUPTION...

JESUS did not "go to Heaven" when he died... He went into the tomb and IN state of DEATH for 3 days and 3 nights... He did not return (ascend) to the Father until AFTER His RESURRECTION...

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

[willieH]

What about "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8?

I don't see that this verse is speaking of DEATH...

Paul in the verse before says this:  For we WALK BY FAITH, not by sight...

This  >IMHO<  is speaking of when we are ABSENT from the BODY (desires of the flesh)... we are PRESENT with the LORD (works of CHRIST)...

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

[Kevin]

"Collective consciousness", Carl Jung. From a psychological spiritual study. Long study.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Brian...  :happygrin:

A few thoughts...  :2c:  ...And please do not take these comments personal...  :friendstu:

I speak against ideas which are not Biblically based...  :teaching:  ...not against any particular person, which has been decieved by those ideas...  :cloud9:

I therefore submit this  :2c: ...for your consideration:

What about "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8?

I don't see that this verse is speaking of DEATH...

Paul in the verse before says this:  For we WALK BY FAITH, not by sight...

This  >IMHO<  is speaking of when we are ABSENT from the BODY (desires of the flesh)... we are PRESENT with the LORD (works of CHRIST)...

This has always been my inclination as well. But the apologists radio shows I listen to on while driving, are always very insistent; "Paul says to be away from the body is to be with the Lord."

They are entitled to their view/opinion...  As I see it, ...anyone who INSISTS, is not giving their offering (view/opinion) over to GOD, and trusting GOD to "take it from there"...   :dontknow:

Also there's "But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better" (Phil.1:22-23)

Now, this passage seems to allude to Paul's longing to depart the FLESH, which he so vehemently calls "the BODY of THIS DEATH" (Rom 7:24)

The added support is Jesus saying to the thief on the cross to His right "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Abraham's bosom).

This passage is NOT saying this!  ...JESUS did not ASCEND to the Father --->  John 20:17 - "...I have NOT YET ASCENDED to My FATHER"  ...until AFTER His RESURRECTION...  :dontknow:

He was in the state of DEATH for 3 [full] days and 3 [full] nights... (Matt 12:40) :yes:

JESUS said to the thief: 

Luke 23:43 ...and JESUS said unto him:  Verily I say unto thee TODAY, ...shalt thou be with Me in Paradise...

JESUS was NOT noting this would take place on the DAY of His crucifixtion... it was a future promise made to the one about to die with Him, which had just CONFESSED Him to be LORD...

AFTER 3 Days... (Mat 27:63) CHRIST arose to Life...

GOD is IMPARTIAL... no SAVED SINNER will BE in PARADISE, before another SAVED SINNER...

Also PARADISE is NOT "Abraham's bosum"... FAITH is "Abraham's bosom" ...which is an big topic unto itself!  The "great gulf" between the FAITHFUL (believers) and UNFAITHFUL (unbelievers) is quite evident...  :dontknow:

One last thought on this... HADES is NOT "hell"... it is the GRAVE or state of DEATH.  It does not say that Abraham was NOT in HADES... just that he was "AFAR OFF"...

UNBELIEVERS are "AFAR OFF" from BELIEVERS...

Don't want to swerve off the track here, ...but the "TONGUE" which is "AFLAME" (referenced in this PARABLE/symbolism) is spoken of in James 3:6

In other words if you're a believer when you die, you soul goes to be with the Lord. Later on, it's united with your resurrected glorified body.

Sorry bro, ...but this is more traditional theology which actually makes no sense, ..."go to heaven",  ...then later on, come back & be united with your "resurrected, glorified body"... :mnah:  I don't buy it...

And furthermore, it does not coincide with what CHRIST said about Himself... That He would RISE AGAIN AFTER 3 Days, ...and He also stated that He had NOT YET ASCENDED to the Father, ...a point which was AFTER His RESSURECTION had taken place, as I have already noted...

The "go to Heaven" thing, is unfounded in the Bible... The Bible doesn't even say that  ANYONE, ..."GOES to HEAVEN"!   :dontknow:

Of course, if you're an unbeliever, your soul goes to the torment compartment of Hades where the Rich Man currently resides, Jesus having emptied out the Abraham's bosom side sometime between the Crucifixion and the Resurrection.

:omg:  Where is this stated?  :scratchhead:

Just more UNLEARNING that is in need to be done in all of us, concerning the massive garbage fed into us by the TRADITIONS of MEN, actively teaching UNBIBLICAL THEOLOGY...  :sigh:  ...its all here:  (Matt 24:5)

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

[CHB]

Willie,

Just wanted you to know, I agree with what you said. Thanks Brother for your posts, they are such a blessing.

CHB

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Seen this thread as I passed through to answer a pm and thought I would add my  :2c:

I don't beleive we existed as seperate beings before we were born into this world, I see it more as we were the rib in Christ that was taken out of Him to make His bride, or we were in Him the same as Levi was in Abraham and paid tithes before he was born into this world.

If CHRIST is UNCHANGING (Heb 13:8), and is ETERNAL (John 1:1), and we are "His rib"... then by these notations, if we proceeded from Him... we are ETERNAL as well, being PART of Him who does NOT CHANGE...

Also... YHVH is also UNCHANGING (Mal 3:6) and is found to be ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:28)... this being so... the "ALL" that He IS in ALL... is ETERNAL, permeating that which He is "ALL" ...in...  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH   :angel4:

[willieH]

willieH: Hey brother B... :hithere:

willieH: Hi Brian...  :happygrin:
A few thoughts...  :2c:  ...And please do not take these comments personal...  :friendstu:

No problem whatsoever there WillieH. First of all, in situations like these, I'm pointing out what someone else has to say about something, so there's no way I would take rebuttals personally. Also in situations like these (like with my 4th Commandment thread) I'm looking for arguments against what I'm posting, as far as what so-in-so has to say. I think it would be best for whoever is reading these posts, if from now on if I make it clear that while I've heard or read such-in-such, that I myself don't go a necessarily long with it, but I'm not sure how to argue against it. You always put up great arguments, which I'm mighty grateful for.  :thumbsup:

Peace brother... we are all learning...  :thumbsup:

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sis! :hithere:

Willie,

Just wanted you to know, I agree with what you said. Thanks Brother for your posts, they are such a blessing.

CHB

As am I blessed by your and your posts sis!  :boyheart:

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

[firstborn888]

Just as a side note, this is also used as proof that you don't have to be baptized to be saved. Since the thief wasn't baptized

He was baptized in his own blood  :sigh:

[Molly]

John 10:4
When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.


How could his sheep know his voice unless they were familiar with it?  And, how could they be familiar with it unless they had heard it before?


The sheep could always recognize the voice of their own shepherd.   Even when they were penned at night with other sheep and called by many shepherds the next morning, they would always go to their own.