The Gay Issue

[Craig]

Hi All

I am only many secular boards and this is a hot topic.  Seeing how UR does not play an ET threat card, how do Universalists view this matter?

My issue with the mainstream is that they cherry pick Leviticus to condemn this yet refuse to stone their children when disobedient and choose to eat shellfish.

Romans 1 does not cut it either for me as that IMO was dealing with believers and NOT unbelievers.  South Africa has gay marriage allowed and the sky did not fall.

So probably the questions are:

1. What does gay marriage directly threaten your marriage/lifestyle?
2. Do you really understand how they think or makes them what they are?

Please remember we have gay members (one I know of). Lurkers will not see this thread.

In the past I had problems with homosexuality but the reason I have now concluded, it I was sexually abused by a homosexual and so it was easy to justify Leviticus and Romans's view of homosexuality because they speak of 'unnatural' relations of which I was a victim. I have since realized there are both homosexual and heterosexual relationships which are also 'unnatural', the things that God abhors and which Paul was speaking.

A natural relationship, is one that loves one another, a relationship based on selfless love.

What directly threatens my life when people have unnatural relationships? It feeds lust, it feeds violence, and I was a victim at age of 4. One does not need to understand how they think, it is an abomination to the Lord.

[Molly]

The USSR was Marxist.  The Russian orthodox church survived and remained. And there were 100M Christians i.e. non orthodox?  Citation needed.

I brought up the conditional equality because folk like you criticize communism yet the USA constitution has similar sentiments.

Personally, I know too little of the USSR history to make a judgment call, but since they went Capitalist, things have not really improved for the common man either.

Stalin and Co killed around 100 million Russians.  All dissenters--gone.  That is typical of a totalitarian state.  Our Constitution has the Bill of Rights which Stalin would incorporate over his dead body.

You think size matters?  How naive of you.  Here's a bit about Christianity in Communist Russian from Wikipedia:




Russian revolution
In 1914 in Russia, there were 55,173 Russian Orthodox churches and 29,593 chapels, 112,629 priests and deacons, 550 monasteries and 475 convents with a total of 95,259 monks and nuns.

The year 1917 was a major turning point for the history of Russia, and also the Russian Orthodox Church. The Russian empire was dissolved and the Tsarist government - which had granted the Church numerous privileges - was overthrown. After a few months of political turmoil, the Bolsheviks took power in October 1917 and declared a separation of church and state. Thus the Russian Orthodox Church found itself without official state backing for the first time in its history. One of the first decrees of the new Communist government (issued in January 1918) declared freedom of "religious and anti-religious propaganda". This led to a marked decline in the power and influence of the Church. The Church was also caught in the crossfire of the Russian Civil War that began later the same year, and many leaders of the Church supported what would ultimately turn out to be the losing side (the White movement).

The Russian Orthodox Church supported the White Army in the Russian Civil War (see White movement) after the October Revolution. This may have further strengthened the Bolshevik animus against the church.

Even before the end of the civil war and the establishment of the Soviet Union, the Russian Orthodox Church came under pressure from the secular Communist government. The Soviet government stood on a platform of antireligion, viewing the church as a "counter-revolutionary" organization and an independent voice with a great influence in society. While the Soviet Union officially claimed religious tolerance, in practice the government discouraged organized religion and did much to remove religious influence from Soviet society.


Under Communist rule
Before and after the October Revolution of November 7, 1917 (October 25 Old Calendar) there was a movement within the Soviet Union to unite all of the people of the world under Communist rule (see Communist International). This included the Eastern European bloc countries as well as the Balkan States. Since some of these Slavic states tied their ethnic heritage to their ethnic churches, both the peoples and their church were targeted by the Soviets. [12]

The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion. Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed. Orthodox priests and believers were variously tortured, sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals, and executed.[13][14] Many Orthodox (along with people of other faiths) were also subjected to psychological punishment or torture and mind control experimentation in order to force them give up their religious convictions.[15][16]

Thousands of churches and monasteries were taken over by the government and either destroyed or converted to secular use. It was impossible to build new churches. Practising Orthodox Christians were restricted from prominent careers and membership in communist organizations (the party, the Komsomol). Anti-religious propaganda was openly sponsored and encouraged by the government, which the Church was not given an opportunity to publicly respond to. The government youth organization, the Komsomol, encouraged its members to vandalize Orthodox Churches and harass worshippers. Seminaries were closed down, and the church was restricted from using the press.

The history of Orthodoxy (and other religions) under Communism was not limited to this story of repression and secularization. Bolshevik policies toward religious belief and practice tended to vacillate over time between, on the one hand, a utopian determination to substitute secular rationalism for what they considered to be an unmodern, "superstitious" worldview and, on the other, pragmatic acceptance of the tenaciousness of religious faith and institutions. In any case, religious beliefs and practices did persist, in the domestic and private spheres but also in the scattered public spaces allowed by a state that recognized its failure to eradicate religion and the political dangers of an unrelenting culture war.[17]

In November 1917, following the collapse of the tsarist government, a council of the Russian Orthodox church reestablished the patriarchate and elected the metropolitan Tikhon as patriarch. But the new Soviet government soon declared the separation of church and state and nationalized all church-held lands. These administrative measures were followed by brutal state-sanctioned persecutions that included the wholesale destruction of churches and the arrest and execution of many clerics. The Russian Orthodox church was further weakened in 1922, when the Renovated Church, a reform movement supported by the Soviet government, seceded from Patriarch Tikhon's church (also see the Josephites and the Russian True Orthodox Church), restored a Holy Synod to power, and brought division among clergy and faithful.

In the first five years after the Bolshevik revolution, 28 bishops and 1,200 priests were executed.[18]

Stalinist era
The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church, which had the largest number of faithful. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labor camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited.

The sixth sector of the OGPU, led by Eugene Tuchkov, began aggressively arresting and executing bishops, priests, and devout worshippers, such as Metropolitan Veniamin in Petrograd in 1922 for refusing to accede to the demand to hand in church valuables (including sacred relics). In the period between 1927 and 1940, the number of Orthodox Churches in the Russian Republic fell from 29,584 to less than 500. Between 1917 and 1935, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested. Of these, 95,000 were put to death. Many thousands of victims of persecution became recognized in a special canon of saints known as the "new martyrs and confessors of Russia".

Patriarch Tikhon anathematized the communist government, which further antagonized relations. When Tikhon died in 1925, the Soviet authorities forbade patriarchal elections to be held. Patriarchal locum tenens (acting Patriarch) Metropolitan Sergius (Stragorodsky, 1887-1944), going against the opinion of a major part of the church's parishes, in 1927 issued a declaration accepting the Soviet authority over the church as legitimate, pledging the church's cooperation with the government and condemning political dissent within the church. By this he granted himself with the power that he, being a deputy of imprisoned Metropolitan Peter and acting against his will, had no right to assume according to the XXXIV Apostolic canon, which led to a split with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia abroad and the Russian True Orthodox Church (Russian Catacomb Church) within the Soviet Union, as they remained faithful to the Canons of the Apostles, declaring the part of the church led by Metropolitan Sergius schism, sometimes coined as sergianism. Due to this canonical disagreement it is disputed which church has been the legitimate successor to the Russian Orthodox Church that had existed before 1925.[19][20][21][22] In 1927, in order to secure the survival of the church, Metropolitan Sergius formally expressed his "loyalty" to the Soviet government and henceforth refrained from criticizing the state in any way. This attitude of loyalty, however, provoked more divisions in the church itself: inside Russia, a number of faithful opposed Sergius, and abroad, the Russian metropolitans of America and Western Europe severed their relations with Moscow.

After Nazi Germany's attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church[23] to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. On September 4, 1943, Metropolitans Sergius (Stragorodsky), Alexius (Simansky) and Nikolay (Yarushevich) received a permission to convene a council on September 8, 1943, that elected Sergius Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia. This is considered by some violation of the XXX Apostolic canon, as no church hierarch could be consecrated by secular authorities.[19] A new patriarch was elected, theological schools were opened, and thousands of churches began to function. The Moscow Theological Academy Seminary, which had been closed since 1918, was re-opened.

Between 1945 and 1959 the official organization of the church was greatly expanded, although individual members of the clergy were occasionally arrested and exiled. The number of open churches reached 25,000. By 1957 about 22,000 Russian Orthodox churches had become active. But in 1959 Nikita Khrushchev initiated his own campaign against the Russian Orthodox Church and forced the closure of about 12,000 churches. By 1985 fewer than 7,000 churches remained active. Members of the church hierarchy were jailed or forced out, their places taken by docile clergy, many of whom had ties with the KGB.


Persecution under Khrushchev and Brezhnev
A new and widespread persecution of the church was subsequently instituted under the leadership of Nikita Khrushchev and Leonid Brezhnev. A second round of repression, harassment and church closures took place between 1959 and 1964 during the rule of Nikita Khrushchev.

The Church and the government remained on unfriendly terms until 1988. In practice, the most important aspect of this conflict was that openly religious people could not join the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, which meant that they could not hold any political office. However, among the general population, large numbers remained religious.

Some Orthodox believers and even priests took part in the dissident movement and became prisoners of conscience. The Orthodox priests Gleb Yakunin, Sergiy Zheludkov and others spent years in Soviet prisons and exile for their efforts in defending freedom of worship.[24] Among the prominent figures of that time was Father Aleksandr Men. Although he tried to keep away from practical work of the dissident movement intending to better fulfil his calling as a priest, there was a spiritual link between Fr Aleksander and many of the dissidents. For some of them he was a friend, for others - a godfather, for many (including Yakunin) - spiritual father[25].

By 1987 the number of functioning churches in the Soviet Union had fallen to 6893 and the number of functioning monasteries to just 18. In 1987 in the Russian SFSR, between 40% and 50% of newborn babies (depending on the region) were baptized and over 60% of all deceased received Christian funeral services.

[Craig]

The book is a symptom of a bigger problem.   

Ever been beaten because someone just thought you was gay? 

Yep, and they were lucky to be alive after I was done defending myself.

Even been thrown out of a church of good ole bible thumpin morons because of the same thing?

Nope, but don't tell them you were sexual abused by a homosexual, they have this thinking that you are gay and treat you with contempt even though you were the victim.

[Molly]

You didn't listen to what I said.  The parents were blocked from controlling what their children were taught by the teacher's union.  Then they asked to please tell them when these books were going to be read so they could keep their kids out of school that day.  Refused.  So then they took the matter to court and the Judge legislated from the bench that parents have no rights as to what their children are taught.  Now they are appealing to a higher court--as if they had the money and the time to deal with this nonsense.  They should not have to deal with  it.  But that's our brave new world.

They still have the right to change schools - surely not all schools would teach this?

--snip--

Obama wants to start them younger in school.

Citation - check out his website for the truth not the Hannity spin.

I read the book to a friend who has a master's degree in education without telling her what it was about.  Halfway through the book her jaw dropped and stayed dropped all the way to the end.  She couldn't believe it.

So you see it is the majority who no longer has any rights.

No, in a democracy, minority also have rights.  That is why you have a constitution.  The right want a theocracy, look how well that works in Iran.

All it comes down to, you want to impose your beliefs on others.  The atheists anyway say we believe in a sky fairy and will never bow down to a xian agenda.

Social/religious issues should be home taught.  If the schools are turning out crazies, then blame the parents.

I was watching on NBC caught on camera where white kids were beating up on other kids initiation and all, by statistics, 80% (or more as they were all white) of them would be Christian thus the problem lies with the moral values instilled in homes.

Gays are generally kind passive folk but will get riled when you mess with their liberties.

You admitted you do not know really what makes them tick yet you wander off judgmentally no problems thus you are not only a bigot but also a hypocrite.  If what they do is sin, what sin did Jesus not cover?  Being gay is only unpardonable in the eyes of the church no one else.  In 5000 years of recorded history, all attempts to disenfranchise them has not made it go away.

While humankind copulate, gays will be born.

Oh please, You are so unbelievably naive.

Study history!

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yep molly, and what you wrote is all diguised in fundamentalist christianity.

[Molly]

Yep molly, and what you wrote is all diguised in fundamentalist christianity.

Disguised?

I am what I am.  I don't even go to church.  I study the Bible as much as I can.  I have a personal relationship with Christ.  I think children should be protected from sex.  And I don't vote with the religious right.

I am an individual, and have greatly enjoyed my freedom to be one.

[SeekerSA]

Oh please, You are so unbelievably naive.

Study history!

And what makes you think I did not?  Easy cop out again.

FYI, we have the western version and there are always 2 sides to the story.  I studied history till Grade 9 - it was compulsory, my last project was WWII from a German perspective, guess what?  I failed.  We also learned of communism but at the time we were at win the cold war and the British obviously were biased against Russia.

It is all teh ebul communists fault yet after reading what Craig posted goes to show, religion survives and should not be part of govt.  Extreme - yes they were, but history shows the church wanted to over influence government.

Like Paul said, you are trying to put out a fire with gasoline.

I still cannot fathom out what communism has to do with gays.  I am sure gays were not the predominant factor in the Soviet government.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yep molly, and what you wrote is all diguised in fundamentalist christianity.

Disguised?

I am what I am.  I don't even go to church.  I study the Bible as much as I can.  I have a personal relationship with Christ.  I think children should be protected from sex.  And I don't vote with the religious right.

I am an individual, and have greatly enjoyed my freedom to be one.

You don't have to defend yourself to me.

You can do that for children through reason and logic,  no religious or social perspective needs to be indoctrinated in children.


If the fundamentalist christian movement got its way, there would be kids in school forced to pray, Gays would be in mental wards and the list goes on to the point that it would progress to a Hilter like mentality.  


If you agree with the fundamentalist movement to somehow through law and procedure and indoctrination and government infiltration to shape people who do not agree with them concerning Godly principals and law and how it should be the law of the land, then the shoe fits.



The issue that I am pointing out, is that if the christians have the right to apply their religious pressure through government policy and state the pride in which they wish to do that in Gods name, then homosexuals and pediphiles have the same right to the system.


But the christians then whine when they get beaten in that battle.

In reality at times, the chistians get beaten by the better value.


the book you mentioned is not what I am talking about.   The book is a symptom of Christians choosing the wrong battle front and they were defeated by an unsuspected enemy thats smarter than they are.


It is because they wage the battle of flesh and blood and they are instructed not to.

[SeekerSA]

I think children should be protected from sex. 

Children need to be educated - age appropriate - which we did in our family.  We also warned them of pedophiles and school should teach the biological side of sex ed not preference.

Teens will be teens thus abstinence teaching is not effective and abstinence is based on home ed not school ed.

Again we are talking children and the OP concerned gay marriage.  This is what the religious right do, they intertwine these things and make a mountain of a mole hill.

I attended a boys only school and my sister a girls only.  We learned of gays from casual peer chatter and not from class.  All we learned there was the biology side.  I really cannot see how gays would press an "agenda" if their rights were given, like I said, here in SA they faded into obscurity.

In one pentecostal church I attended, there was an elder, all three his daughters got pregnant (out of wedlock and as teenagers) and his only son is gay.  How is that for irony?  That said he was very judgmental.

[Molly]

I'm telling you what is going on in these schools and you are not believing me, so I don't know what else I can say.  You don't believe that outraged parents have no say over what their 5, 6, and 7 year olds are being taught.  You don't even believe the parents have a right to be outraged.  You don't believe this is just the beginning.

So, as you see it unfold, remember me.  But I will help the parents fight it.

I attended a boys only school and my sister a girls only.  We learned of gays from casual peer chatter and not from class.  All we learned there was the biology side.  I really cannot see how gays would press an "agenda" if their rights were given, like I said, here in SA they faded into obscurity.

They have gotten their 'rights.'  They are pressing this agenda in the schools in a gay marriage state.  That is the next step.

[Paul Hazelwood]

They are pressing this agenda in the schools in a gay marriage state.  That is the next step.

Big deal.  Do you think that is actually the battle front that is the problem?

[Molly]

They are pressing this agenda in the schools in a gay marriage state.  That is the next step.

Big deal.

I don't understand your point.

To the parents of these children it's a big deal.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I left off something and was editing...

They are pressing this agenda in the schools in a gay marriage state.  That is the next step.

Big deal.  Do you think that is actually the battle front that is the problem?

[Molly]

I left off something and was editing...

They are pressing this agenda in the schools in a gay marriage state.  That is the next step.

Big deal.  Do you think that is actually the battle front that is the problem?

You have to understand that any state that is going to tolerate gay marriage is very secular to begin with.  They already have one foot in the socialist grave.  There is no religious fundimentalism here and never was.  So this is not even a Christian thing with most.  These are parents who do not want their children exposed to this lifestyle, particularly not in kindergarten.  The only Christians fighting it as Christians are the Catholics.

If I had a 5 year old being exposed to this stuff, he would no longer be in school.

[SeekerSA]

To the parents of these children it's a big deal.

Bingo - and therein lies the problem.  Seems the parents require education in tolerance.

[Molly]

They have gotten their 'rights.'  They are pressing this agenda in the schools in a gay marriage state.  That is the next step.

Like the black folk pre 60's and the black folk here pre 94?

Equal but separate/different is apartheid, no matter how you spin it.  USA may have done away with "racism" before SA but you are waay behind now when it comes to equal human rights.

You can ask them to stop pushing "their" agenda in public in return for allowing marriage and they will agree if you stop pushing "your" agenda.  School is for learning not social issues.  They will parade themselves outlandishly just to piss folk off, they did it here, they no longer do - in public that is.

Remember, prop 8 only passed by 2%. That is not a landslide by any means and the evangelicals, mormons and RCC had to collate when they are arch rivals normally not to mention mormons favor polygamy.

Going back to biblical OT principles, slavery was OK, Polygamy was OK, yet all xians cherry pick to bash the gays using the bible.

If xians were consistent, there would not be a problem, the gays use the bible against you and esp the inconsistent application.

Why does the 10 commandments not mention homosexuality?  Don't use adultery as that is what they throw back in your face wrt divorce and remarriage.  Then why doe Jesus say nothing about it in his two great commandments?

You shall love the Lord your God.. and love your neighbor as yourself.

See when you cannot love your neighbor, it means you do not love yourself.

BTW Jesus taught tolerance except to the religious of His day, the ones that were always judging remember? Beam in the eye and all...

Maybe you could tell me how it's working out for you now in South Africa.  There's no more apartheid is there?  Or are the whites now the object of it?  I know, it's all america's fault.

Again, you are not listening to me.  Read my previous post.  You find it impossible to believe that they might be being used as part of an agenda, despite the fact that you clearly don't understand our culture and you don't know history.  You consider me some crackpot "patriot"  because I believe in the Bill of Rights.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Here is the issue Molly,

I am not for forcing a book telling any child how to have a relationship a certain way in any school.  I am not for structuring a child in a public school that a religious way to have a family is the correct way either. I want both sides to get the hell out.


The problem I see is that Christians and whoever else may hate them have pushed to tell homosexuals how bad and evil they are for years and years,  so, there is more going on that just gay marriage, or just rights of LAW.  They are fighting against a society that paints them as second class citizens.

[Molly]

To the parents of these children it's a big deal.

Bingo - and therein lies the problem.  Seems the parents require education in tolerance.

Really.  So now you want to dictate what the parents should believe is the best interests of their own children?  You would fit right in, Comrad.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I left off something and was editing...

They are pressing this agenda in the schools in a gay marriage state.  That is the next step.

Big deal.  Do you think that is actually the battle front that is the problem?

You have to understand that any state that is going to tolerate gay marriage is very secular to begin with.  They already have one foot in the socialist grave.  There is no religious fundimentalism here and never was.  So this is not even a Christian thing with most.  These are parents who do not want their children exposed to this lifestyle, particularly not in kindergarten.  The only Christians fighting it as Christians are the Catholics.

If I had a 5 year old being exposed to this stuff, he would no longer be in school.

Thinking that this issue is in a vacuum limited to your area is not seeing the greater issue.

Words like secular and such?  What is secular and why is it a problem?

[martincisneros]

I'm perfectly willing to discuss gay rights after we've discussed infanticide rights, Hitler's rights, theives rights, murderers rights, rapists rights, child abusers rights, blasphemers rights, genocide rights, false religions rights, human sacrifice rights, liars rights, demons rights, necrophilias rights, etc.

The soul that sinneth shall surely die!

[Molly]

I left off something and was editing...

They are pressing this agenda in the schools in a gay marriage state.  That is the next step.

Big deal.  Do you think that is actually the battle front that is the problem?

You have to understand that any state that is going to tolerate gay marriage is very secular to begin with.  They already have one foot in the socialist grave.  There is no religious fundimentalism here and never was.  So this is not even a Christian thing with most.  These are parents who do not want their children exposed to this lifestyle, particularly not in kindergarten.  The only Christians fighting it as Christians are the Catholics.

If I had a 5 year old being exposed to this stuff, he would no longer be in school.

Thinking that this issue is in a vacuum limited to your area is not seeing the greater issue.

Words like secular and such?  What is secular and why is it a problem?

Most people don't believe in God after a long education of indoctrination.

You don't see the big picture.

No one has the right to educate my children to believe that God is a myth.

No one has the right to teach my children that the theory of evolution is science.

Secularism is a religion.  Read that post I put up on the Russian Revolution.

Do you think the Bolsheviks were the majority?  Most of them were not even Russian!

[Craig]

Proverbs 22:6 Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.

So be careful how you train your children. :)

[Paul Hazelwood]

No one has the right to educate my children to believe that God is a myth.

Agreed, and you do not have the right to educate an atheists children that he is real.

No one has the right to teach my children that the theory of evolution is science.

It is science, so you are ignorant of science and so are christians that think Creationism is science.

Secularism is a religion.

Secularism is a label that is given by Christians to anyone who does not march to their drum beat.  And  has nothing to do with the problems this society battles.

The oppression and abuse of others has nothing to do with those labeled as Godless as Godless people have done the same thing in Gods name.

[SeekerSA]

Maybe you could tell me how it's working out for you now in South Africa.  There's no more apartheid is there?  Or are the whites now the object of it?  I know, it's all america's fault.

Again, you are not listening to me.  Read my previous post.  You find it impossible to believe that they might be being used as part of an agenda, despite the fact that you clearly don't understand our culture and you don't know history.  You consider me some crackpot "patriot"  because I believe in the Bill of Rights.

If you think I do not understand the USA culture, you are sorely mistaken.  We even learned of USA history when I was at school, we do tend to have a bigger world view here in Africa believe it or not.

This is the second time you accuse me of not knowing history.  It is the typical American cop out.  What do you know of Southern Africa History?

Really.  So now you want to dictate what the parents should believe is the best interests of their own children?  You would fit right in, Comrad.

No the parents need to come into the 21st century.  It is all Obama's fault and what he has done in -61 days, in the meantime it is the communist fault, yet the beam in ey does not allow you to see the mote in your own eye. And now I am a communist? Comrade?

Back to the 1st part, there is no apartheid, it is gone.  Yes there are probably still a few nutjobs out there but in essence we live peacefully.

My daughter is in Grade 10 and I asked her did they teach alternative lifestyles in sex ed and she said no.  BTW she has been in the top 10 of our province (state) ever since she started school.  See there is no gay agenda here anymore, they are allowed to marry.  She is in a public school predominantly black but all schools are predominantly black, they are after all the majority demographic.

In the initial years there were white fears but that has all passed now, the ebul black man is actually just another human being, just like the gays are.

[Molly]

"Give me a child until he is 7 and I will give you the man."