real faith rather than reliance on doctrines

[anti_nietzsche]

Hi there,

I've been here two times now. Wondering whether ET or UR is true. And again, I don't have a definite answer. The bible just isn't conclusive. There are scriptures that speak UR language, and other scriptures which speak ET language.

I guess what it comes down to is that it is a mystery. All we know is that the faithful will be with Christ. And that God issues warnings to those who are not faithful. Even when UR is correct in saying that there are no everlasting punishments, the real way to solve these problems is to do as God says and to do that which is the scriptural way out of condemnation.

Lately I'm realizing that I need God. I need Jesus. And that I always have to draw close to God. There is no lasting peace apart from God. There is no comfort, no satisfaction - there is no real safety net. I must stop the downward spiral and trust my Maker. I have often been falling, and while falling I wished for a safety net that will halt my fall no matter what. But there is no such safety net. Well, in a way it is there if I believe in God. But I must not get into the habit of falling all the time. Like Paul says, I must see that I stand. I must learn not to doubt. I must learn to rely on God.

I like UR. But I find that I can't depend on it. Salvation is no automatism. I must always draw close to God and let Him change me in time. I must combat my own unbelief, my own mistrust. I must do as He says and follow the scriptures.

Christianity isn't rocket science. The essentials are easy to understand.

Faith in God ... trusting Him .... this just works. Give the scare into His hands. Don't let fear bring you down into mistrust. Instead, mistrust fear. Fear can inspire the same crap as pride does. Fear must always go, just like pride. And the only acceptable alternative is love. Love casts out the fear.

[martincisneros]

Everything you said is 100% true and 100% mandatory EXCEPT for the part about the Bible not being conclusive about UR.  It is. :Sparkletooth:

[DeeDee]

Hi again, you and I have spoken about this before. I have come along way since. Stick around this time  :laughing7: and lets all work through this together.

Lets look at your topic subject shall we "real faith rather than reliance on doctrines". Very good subject, first find your faith and get over your fear and then approach the doctrines and lots more will start making sense to you. Look inside your heart, isn't it the fear of eternal hell that is making you the most scared here? The fear that if you reject it you will burn for eternity? In my opinion NOTHING good can come out of fear. I am living proof. Try this rather, have a very great RESPECT for God and LOVE and try to let go of the FEAR part. No one has all the answers. I sure wish they did then things in this world would be so different and so easy. No one here claims to have all the answers either. All we can do is try and find as many answers as possible and make up our own minds on what is wrong and right.

Welcome back hun
DeeDee

[anti_nietzsche]

No, I can't say hell is my greatest fear. When it comes to these things, my greatest fear is probably being condemned and having to remain in condemnation forever. I also fear becoming a terrible sinner without being able to do something against it.

I probably have to explain that a bit ... I have schizophrenia and I am haunted by demons. This has been going on for years now. It all started when I was still an atheist and blasphemed God. Since then I often feel paranoid. I don't trust myself and my whole mental setup has become very fragile. I try to find peace but so far it's only been temporary. Sometimes I can feel God and rest in love, but often it's like I can't keep it.

UR is a great theory, but I am not persuaded that it is the truth. As I said, there are many scriptures that seem to hint there, but there are others hinting at ET. My greatest obstacle would be the scripture where Jesus tells us that He will separate the sheep and the goat, and that those who didn't care about Him in this life will be condemned to suffer the same fate as the devil. Jesus says plainly, "Depart from me, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

The problem is, I don't think God wants to redeem the devil. I don't think that's possible. And since Jesus connects the fate of some of us with the devil's fate, I believe this is a point for ET.

I hope many people will get saved. Most of us, actually.

I try to think of the whole thing as a mystery. That was the point of my post. I try to walk a path of light, so that I don't have to fear any condemnation in this life. I know God's grace is nearly boundless, but I've also come to a point where I feel literal hurt from sin, so I see the goodness of God's commandments.

I believe I've come to a point where I don't fear hell for myself anymore. The problem is other people, and their fate. For example, I have a largely unbelieving family. Except for my mother and one of my sisters, none of them are real christians. It's terrible to think of my dad having to suffer forever. My mother believes that he will have opportunity to repent after death, but I haven't found that in the bible. So sometimes I feel a bit hopeless. In fact I just go away from it and try not to think of it.

I've also experienced that the demonic attacks got worse when I embraced UR. When I believe in ET it's like the demons get scared. Sounds weird, but it's the truth. Therefor I think I must accept all of the bible, both the passages that speak about reconciliation, and those that speak about judgment. And, let's face it, the bible is full of death threats and stuff like that, the book of Moses is full of it. Yes, we have a real lot of grace in Christ, but those who stay apart from Christ or choose to leave Him ... well, I don't want to experiment there.

Many blessings!

D.

[DeeDee]

No, I can't say hell is my greatest fear. When it comes to these things, my greatest fear is probably being condemned and having to remain in condemnation forever. I also fear becoming a terrible sinner without being able to do something against it.

We are ALL sinners. Condemnation is what I meant. Some call it hell some call it condemnation. I honestly doubt that God would make us and then condemn us for an eternity. If that is the case then I am destined for that same fate that you fear. In fact more then half the world is.

I probably have to explain that a bit ... I have schizophrenia and I am haunted by demons. This has been going on for years now. It all started when I was still an atheist and blasphemed God. Since then I often feel paranoid. I don't trust myself and my whole mental setup has become very fragile. I try to find peace but so far it's only been temporary. Sometimes I can feel God and rest in love, but often it's like I can't keep it.

UR is a great theory, but I am not persuaded that it is the truth. As I said, there are many scriptures that seem to hint there, but there are others hinting at ET. My greatest obstacle would be the scripture where Jesus tells us that He will separate the sheep and the goat, and that those who didn't care about Him in this life will be condemned to suffer the same fate as the devil. Jesus says plainly, "Depart from me, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

I have done a lot worse then blaspheme God. I feel in many many ways the same as you do and I am starting to think its those very same demons playing with our heads. If you were so "damned" I doubt you would care. God clearly says that those so called "damned" are given over to reprobate minds. As for the scripture - parable - about seperating the sheep from the goats I know it has been explained her on various other threads before, but I am sure great minds like Martin, and Craig will explain that to you. They are pastors and they know their stuff.

The problem is, I don't think God wants to redeem the devil. I don't think that's possible. And since Jesus connects the fate of some of us with the devil's fate, I believe this is a point for ET.

I hope many people will get saved. Most of us, actually.

I try to think of the whole thing as a mystery. That was the point of my post. I try to walk a path of light, so that I don't have to fear any condemnation in this life. I know God's grace is nearly boundless, but I've also come to a point where I feel literal hurt from sin, so I see the goodness of God's commandments.

I believe I've come to a point where I don't fear hell for myself anymore. The problem is other people, and their fate. For example, I have a largely unbelieving family. Except for my mother and one of my sisters, none of them are real christians. It's terrible to think of my dad having to suffer forever. My mother believes that he will have opportunity to repent after death, but I haven't found that in the bible. So sometimes I feel a bit hopeless. In fact I just go away from it and try not to think of it.

I've also experienced that the demonic attacks got worse when I embraced UR. When I believe in ET it's like the demons get scared. Sounds weird, but it's the truth. Therefor I think I must accept all of the bible, both the passages that speak about reconciliation, and those that speak about judgment. And, let's face it, the bible is full of death threats and stuff like that, the book of Moses is full of it. Yes, we have a real lot of grace in Christ, but those who stay apart from Christ or choose to leave Him ... well, I don't want to experiment there.

Most of us have family and friends that don't want to be preached to. These people are otherwise good people. Do you honestly in your heart of hearts believe they will burn an eternity for this? The reason those demons seem to leave you alone when you embrace ET is because you are comfortable with ET. Its what you have been taught your whole life and when you turn to UR you somehow feel guilty and feel scared you are doing something wrong in God's eyes, therefore you are open to anxiety, guilt and fear. Its quite clear to me that you are more Afraid then anything else. The bible teaches of love and not fear. I know its not easy, believe me, but try it - try and have love for all those around you and try and approach God in prayer with love filled in your heart.

Blessings
Dee

[WhiteWings]

The problem is, I don't think God wants to redeem the devil. I don't think that's possible. And since Jesus connects the fate of some of us with the devil's fate, I believe this is a point for ET.

John 3:17 God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.
John 4:42  .... and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Isn't satan part of the world?
All mankind is saved. If Jesus connected Satan to some people it means satan will be saved too. Just because the 'some people group' is part of the 'all people group'

Signed a metal groupie :laughing7:

[Shadow]

No, I can't say hell is my greatest fear. When it comes to these things, my greatest fear is probably being condemned and having to remain in condemnation forever. I also fear becoming a terrible sinner without being able to do something against it.

I probably have to explain that a bit ... I have schizophrenia and I am haunted by demons. This has been going on for years now. It all started when I was still an atheist and blasphemed God. Since then I often feel paranoid. I don't trust myself and my whole mental setup has become very fragile. I try to find peace but so far it's only been temporary. Sometimes I can feel God and rest in love, but often it's like I can't keep it.

UR is a great theory, but I am not persuaded that it is the truth. As I said, there are many scriptures that seem to hint there, but there are others hinting at ET. My greatest obstacle would be the scripture where Jesus tells us that He will separate the sheep and the goat, and that those who didn't care about Him in this life will be condemned to suffer the same fate as the devil. Jesus says plainly, "Depart from me, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

The problem is, I don't think God wants to redeem the devil. I don't think that's possible. And since Jesus connects the fate of some of us with the devil's fate, I believe this is a point for ET.

I hope many people will get saved. Most of us, actually.

I try to think of the whole thing as a mystery. That was the point of my post. I try to walk a path of light, so that I don't have to fear any condemnation in this life. I know God's grace is nearly boundless, but I've also come to a point where I feel literal hurt from sin, so I see the goodness of God's commandments.

I believe I've come to a point where I don't fear hell for myself anymore. The problem is other people, and their fate. For example, I have a largely unbelieving family. Except for my mother and one of my sisters, none of them are real christians. It's terrible to think of my dad having to suffer forever. My mother believes that he will have opportunity to repent after death, but I haven't found that in the bible. So sometimes I feel a bit hopeless. In fact I just go away from it and try not to think of it.

I've also experienced that the demonic attacks got worse when I embraced UR. When I believe in ET it's like the demons get scared. Sounds weird, but it's the truth. Therefor I think I must accept all of the bible, both the passages that speak about reconciliation, and those that speak about judgment. And, let's face it, the bible is full of death threats and stuff like that, the book of Moses is full of it. Yes, we have a real lot of grace in Christ, but those who stay apart from Christ or choose to leave Him ... well, I don't want to experiment there.

Many blessings!

D.

I want to believe UR is true but I'm also not 100% convinced

Let me explain why

I don't see how anyone sent to the lake of fire gets out of there, the best I can hope for is annihilation :sigh:

There are also a number of verses that have me baffled which I see no explanation for

Mar 8:35  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Mar 8:36  For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Mar 8:37  Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Luk 12:16  And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:17  And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
Luk 12:18  And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
Luk 12:19  And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Luk 12:20  But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
Luk 12:21  So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Yet the bible clearly teaches predestination

Rom 9:10  And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

If ET is true then most people ever born are headed for it, including me as I am unable to love a God that would have predestined something so horrific for most of mankind, I can only conclude that he hates the majority of mankind (I wouldn't even want someone like Hitler to suffer something like that and I don't even like the man, how do you think I feel about my loved ones)

I'm not a liberal, I support the death penalty for violent and premeditated murder, I think the western world has become far too lenient with criminals, I believe parents should be able to discipline their children, I even believe in corporal punishment in the schools, however, I cannot justify ET for any reason and no can no longer identify with people who feel the majority of mankind deserves this kind of punishment, hence I no longer attend the church I used to attend

What are we in comparison to an all knowing, all wise, "all loving", God, nothing, we are like lost sheep that don't know where to turn

The organized church has manufactured ways to pin the blame solely on mankind and satan without it reflecting back to God, if we go to hell it's our fault, despite God knowing everything from the beginning, if God knew and ET is true would it not have been far more loving to have never created us at all, I sure wish I'd never been created, the sad thing is if it's true then He either planned it or allowed it and there's nothing I can do about it

How could he have done this to most of us when He knew we couldn't accept Him, there are some that haven't even heard of Him, and unlike what Arminians teach we can't "choose" Christ

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you

It's ironic, I'm hated in the word, yet I'm sure I'm not one of God's chosen either :sigh:

Logically UR makes the most sense, I only hope it's right.

[WhiteWings]

Logically UR makes the most sense, I only hope it's right.

Looks that way this being the end result:
Revelation 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I don't see how anyone sent to the lake of fire gets out of there, the best I can hope for is annihilation

Then you don't feel any pain anymore. Not so bad either because the dead don't know a thing.
But what about those in heaven missing 95% of their family.....?

[DeeDee]

Listen guys, all of you that have fears still. I have fears still 2, lots of people here still have fears. I am at this point about 60% UR myself and not completely "sold" on the idea either. That is so odd tho, because I have believed all this most of my life, without even knowing it existed. In other words in the ET teaching world I always believed in EXACTLY everything UR teaches. Then recently I found UR. Now the funny thing my mind is doing is making me disbelieve it because I have found it! Now my mind is telling me it's all too good to be true! Its very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very funny the way the human mind works. Like for instance a bit more than two months ago (roughly) I never believed anyone could ever be damned for eternity, let alone me. Now since my research into religion (ET and UR) I feel damned and condemned alot. Was soooooooooooo bad a while ago that I could'nt eat or sleep and I totally gave up. If you read the bible the "wrong" way you see lots of the following;

1.) unforgivable things and sins (which is a problem for MANY and is making MANY sick).

2.) death and destruction.

3.) fiery and eternal torturous ever afters.

These things I mentioned above have made me go thru the worst hell of my life. I went thru things I did'nt know was possible! Look people for me to say that is saying alot. I have survived unimaginable things in this life. I have also lost alot of very close loved ones to death - and in the past NEVER once did I ever doubt they would land up in Heaven - ALL of them. ET teachings causes a person to lose sight of God. It causes people to only see "bad things" when they read the bible. It causes soooooooooo many mental disorders and diseases in people. I mean people I have picked up light OCD because of this! I was fine before, a very strong person mentally and physically. Bottom line is that in my opinion, all of you that have these problems now (mentally) it is the teaching of ET.

Okay you all do this and maybe it will make you feel better (it helps me)
Ask yourself the following;

1.) Would God really make you if he knew you would "burn" forever in the end?

2.) Would God keep you alive and take care of you (and listen people this is true, we are all taken care of, if you have food to eat, a place to sleep and even us with internet connections then you are taken care of) if he was going to condemn you?

3.) Since we are made in the image of God that must mean we share characteristics with him, so the love we are capable of is only a tiny fraction of what God is capable of.

4.) Point 3 above also covers the fact that God is more understanding than us. He understands everything we go through and he understands what is in our hearts.

Basically take the most compassionate and loving person in this world that you can think of and times is by like a thousand and you get a bit of a picture of what God is like. In the same breath I say take the most "angry" person you can think of and do the same. Bottom line is God loves us all (why the heck would he makes us if we knew we would be tortured forever? heck no, He is LOVE not SADISTIC), BUT don't sin and anger God because you will reap what you sow (just not for eternity  :laughing7:)

If anyone needs moral support or just wants to talk, I am always here. I KNOW its hard. Remember you are ALL brave and I am so proud of you all for how far you have come in this journey already. Just by being here you have taken the first step. The rest of the walk we will take on together.

God Bless you all
DeeDee

[anti_nietzsche]

Hi DeeDee,

I think the solution must always be found in trusting Jesus. Even when you believe in UR, you must see that you grow closer to God in some way. As I understand UR, the only difference between UR and mainstream christianity, in the essentials anyway, is that there are no truly eternal punishments except for the devil (some believe that the devil too can be redeemed, but I really don't think God will do this. Remember we are talking about a mythical being here that is not like a man that can repent. God can save a human through showing love and mercy - the devil doesn't work that way).

Sometimes I have the suspicion that my motivations about UR aren't as clear and good as I would like to believe. I certainly know for sure that sometimes in my life I liked to listen to fears as opposed to really exercising faith.

For that reason I consider fear to be quite similar to pride in that it leads to the sin of despair. God tries to help you out of fears by leading you into the light - the light of knowing that you are watched. Now for a sinning person this is not a comfortable thought. But for someone who loves God this is a very beautiful thought, that God always looks after us.

I'm afraid that problems related to the fear of hell and condemnation, can only be cured through getting close to God. I think this is a lesson I've been being taught in the last days. And I think this really is the option God wants me to take, and has opened up for me all these years when I was afraid, to trust in my Heavenly Father and to trust in His beloved Son Jesus.

Let me give you an example of my life to show you what I mean. Some years ago I was in the hospital again to get my meds adjusted. Back then I was thinking much of religion. I still do, but back then I didn't know many things. Anyway, I was there in the hospital and there was a man there, around 60 years old. He had that illness you get sometimes when you get bitten by a tick. He was walking around like a very little child, and couldn't really communicate anymore. He really didn't know anymore what he was doing, he was really sick. And as far as I know, there was no option for a cure.

One day I sat with him in our smoker's room and talked with the man. I don't know why I really did this, but I started to speak about Christ with Him. I told the man that He is saved too. The men went out of the room, and I spend some minutes smoking alone. Some minutes later someone loudly knocked on the door. I looked through its little window and saw the man, Jürgen, again. He screamed one word "Guilt!". (I hadn't said anything about guilt or even sin or something to him.) I went out, took Jürgen by the hand and we went down to a couch and a chair. I told him, don't worry, your sins are forgiven, you are saved, Jürgen. The rest of the day Jürgen was very elated. He was so happy all the time. He even made kind of jokes, amused the whole ward.

In the evening before I slept in I heard a voice that said: "tomorrow it will seem as if Jürgen was in Heaven for the night!". I believed that and slept in. Next morning I got up and went out and saw Jürgen getting his medicine. He was so warmhearted. And when I approached him he smiled at me, took my head in his hands and said "Please let's go for a cigarette". He was so warm with me, and the sentence he had said was the only time I ever heard him say a coherent sentence. But foolish as I was, I said no I have to go to the morning gymnastics and didn't go with him. But I became friends with Jürgen and visited him a few times in the nursing home where he was put, until they brought him far away where I couldn't visit him anymore.

God has a great heart for the needy, and I don't think He will really let someone suffer forever, though I am not 100% sure in the case of really black people like Hitler. But here on Earth everything must go the way of truth. We must seek the lost and in Christ help to save them. People must understand that not listening to Jesus simply is wrong and robs us the life of love God has in store for us. We must be careful not to cause needless suffering. We must help bring the knowledge of God's goodness to light, and we must also help each other fight the devil and his works.

Although I am not 100% persuaded of UR, it is necessary that people get to know God like He really is ... and when you let that sink in for real, the enmity with God that unfortunately has reached into many a heart, will go away.

We know that God loves us deeply, for sure, since Calvary. But we can't escape becoming humbled. We need that. God wants to love us IN THE TRUTH, here and now, in our lives here on this difficult world. That we learn to trust this God is very important. Then we get a taste of what the afterlife is like, which is primarily a life with God.

My problem is, I guess, that sometimes when I think more directly about the concerned doctrines of salvation/damnation, that part of me wants to scream "Injust! Merciless!", etc. And this I cannot allow, because I know God's goodness and want to respond to it positively.

Still, this world will have to await much trial in the future, if we look at the book of Revelation which I consider inspired. For example, consider the two witnesses whom the world hates because they strike it with torments. That's something really scary, but it's in the book so we have to consider it.

Also, as much as I dislike ET, it is a possibility. Personally my alternative to UR is annihilationism, as it would be an eternal punishment.

Ultimately though, none of us have died and gotten to know the truth and come back here. All we know is that how we lead our life here, has effects in the afterlife as well.

The solution must always be growing closer to God. He is like the scriptures say, and what He does on this world is the exercise of justice and kindness. If I went out and sinned deliberately like by, say, doing a one night stand with a girl, I think God wouldn't like this and perhaps show the cold shoulder for a while. This stuff IS happening, and we shouldn't discount it, and neither should we simply just rely on UR for saving our butts instead of doing as God says which spares us all the trouble.

[Nathan]

For me, fear is actually faith . . .it's just that it's the manifestation of faith through carnal reasoning rather than the leading of the Spirit.  Fear is a negative reaction to your mind seeing a possiblity that has not yet happened. . .and in most cases . .never does happen.  But the mind, the mind not transformed ro renewed . .which is process anyway rather than a one-time experience, but the mind automatically sees life from an earthly perspective . .from a fallen nature.  If you are down, everything you think about is stained with that shade of depression. 

Fear is the evidence of dark faith.  "I 'fear' I'll get hit by a car so I never cross the street".  That is acting in faith.  You "believe" what your eyes can't see now, but you still see things as though they are .  . not as they are, but as though they are . . . that's what faith is.  Dark faith (I just came up with that term by the way) has the opposite results than God's faith.  Fear inflicts bondage . .it "keeps" you "from" acting or engaging.  True faith is liberating . . it "enables" you to engage in things you wouldn't ordinarily be a part of. 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi A_N... :hithere:

Sorry for this long post... but I needed the space to address what you said:

Hi there,

I've been here two times now. Wondering whether ET or UR is true. And again, I don't have a definite answer. The bible just isn't conclusive. There are scriptures that speak UR language, and other scriptures which speak ET language.

Oh, I beg to differ a bit with you brother A_N!   :mwink:

The BIBLE is definitely CONCLUSIVE... but does the one CONCLUDING (reading its words)... have GOD's REVELATION of that CONCLUSION?

I know that you are quite aware that Scripture is SPIRITUAL, which places it in a realm which can only be understood, when aided by the SPIRIT of GOD...  We are ALL, to various degrees, VEILED to its meanings... For ALL have been CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF (Rom 11:32)...

We are ALL passengers in the "UNBELIEF" boat, floating down relentlessly down the RIVER of TIME... on our voyage of returning to ETERNITY... And only in the MOMENT and DEGREE that YHVH reveals, can any BIBLICAL principle be UNVEILED on that journey...

The Scripture notes the FEW shall enter into the KINGDOM... whaaatup wid dat?   When there are 2.5 BILLION Christians on this planet --- 1/3+ of the population!  And to boot, ...the CHRISTIAN religion is the FASTEST growing one on Earth!  What happened to FEW?

CHRIST said in parable: (Luke 18:8) ...When the Son of man COMETH, shall He find FAITH on the earth?   

:omg:  WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?  How are 2.5 BILLION (and growing) church members... so INVISIBLE?

CHRIST also said: (Matt 24:5) ...MANY [not FEW] shall come in MY NAME, saying I am CHRIST, and shall DECIEVE... MANY [not FEW]

Well let me tellya... the 2.5 BILLION compose a general RELIGION, which in its numerous variations and observations demand their particular "variation" be followed, ...losing sight of the one which is the CENTRAL figure of the RELIGION...

FAITH which trusts GOD to REVEAL... is what JESUS was talking about... :yes: ...Not a "church pamphlet" which tells you what you BELIEVE... and how to BELIEVE it... :mnah:

CHRIST also said ....

Matt 7:22-23 ...MANY [not few] shall say in that day, Lord, Lord [these are believers -- for no man can call Him LORD, but BY the Holy Spirit - 1 Cor 12:3], have WE not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name [haven't WE] cast out devils? and in Thy name [haven't WE] done many wonderful things? ...and then will I profess unto THEM, ...I never KNEW you, depart from Me, ye that WORK iniquity!

The biggest problem with the "WE" in this verse, is themselves... they fail to see that THEY did NOTHING... and that CHRIST did EVERYTHING... which is RELIGION in action... manifesting its DEEDS and CREDITS before the one ...which actually "DID" the "MANIFESTING"

I can almost hear them unwittingly saying such as: "WE have 20 million members in OUR CHURCH"  :mshock:

I guess what it comes down to is that it is a mystery. All we know is that the faithful will be with Christ.

It is certainly a MYSTERY bro... and YES... the FAITHFUL will be with CHRIST, and WHO might that be?

GOD maintains throughout Scripture, that HE is NOT PARTIAL -- to name a few of many verses:  (Rom 2:11 / Eph 6:9 / Job 34:19)

And JESUS is the (Heb 12:2) AUTHOR [beginning] and FINISHER [end] of our "FAITH"...  which actually means WE, ...DO NOT originate our FAITH, neither do WE complete it...

So WHO therefore, "recieves from HIM, this faith" ... which is AUTHORED and FINISHED by CHRIST, ...if CHRIST is IMPARTIAL?

There can be only ONE answer brother... (1 Tim 4:10)  CHRIST is Savior of ALL MEN... especially [the FEW] that BELIEVE...

Believe what?   :dontknow:

Believe HIM, not SYSTEMIC RELIGION...  Don't get me wrong brother... there are those which BELIEVE that are YET immersed in RELIGION... which is why GOD CALLS:

(Rev 18:4) ...come OUT of Her [Babylon - vs 1-3], MY PEOPLE...

Do not people from ALL walks of life and religion come to believe in CHRIST? There are converts to the SAVIOR, from ATHIESM, JUDAISM, BUDDHAISM, etc...  But what have these actually done?  Most have gone from one RELIGION to another...

What in heavens name could GOD's PEOPLE be ...IN...?  Most theologians will tell you "the WORLD"...  but is not RELIGION in ANY FORM, the WORLD?  The WORLD is BABYLON (confusion)...  And RELIGION virtually PERMEATES the population of earth... one of which is CHRISTIANITY... which has SO MANY different OPPOSING entities within it... how can it be disregarded as part of CONFUSION?

The Catholics figure all the rest are going to Hell, because the "rest" dont believe as they do, ...and the Mormons think this in their own way, as do the Pentecostals, and the SDA's, and the Methodists, and the Baptists... which one is RIGHT?  Is not THIS CONFUSION? [BABYLON]

How can one as an individual be in a PERSONAL relationship which is only practiced within the CONFINES of ones CHURCH  and according to its ceremonial and scriptural interpretations?  Obeying ITS teachings, obeying ITS observed days, obeying ITS outreach agenda, taking ITS message to the "world"...

Hey, just FYI, ...I spent 20yrs with the Salvation Army, and another 5 with the SDA's... so I KNOW how RELIGION works... and how those IN religion, believe and practice their beliefs... I found my way OUT of these... (dont get me wrong, I do not judge them, just dont JOIN them in their beliefs or execution of those beliefs)

Don't know about YOU... but as a Husband of 33yrs to my wife... NOTHING in the WORLD was utilized to establish our beautiful marriage... it was ONE on ONE, ...simply, ...HER loving me, and ME loving HER... no outsiders (no offense) developed that LOVE... it was developed and established by our on-going efforts toward and WITH one another...

The relationship with GOD is no different... it is a MARRIAGE... we are the BRIDE of CHRIST... as INDIVIDUALS... HE is the husband of YOU as an INDIVIDUAL,  ...not the "church"... HE loves us INDEPENDENT of any form of "church"... and WE are to do the SAME... Love HIM, ...INDEPENDENT of any form of "church"...

YOU must LOVE CHRIST and relate to Him as an INDIVIDUAL, regardless of the doings or beliefs of the "church"... what if it so happens you end up in the WRONG one?  What if ALL "churches" except ONE are WRONG?  :mshock:  WhereIN is your relationship found?

I'll tell you where bro... IN your HEART...  :HeartThrob: ...not IN the "the CHURCH"...

It is unfortunate, but these days, ...even the secular crowd sees the hypocritical views of the different "Christian" churches toward one another... so sad...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

[WhiteWings]

As I understand UR, the only difference between UR and mainstream christianity, in the essentials anyway, is that there are no truly eternal punishments except for the devil (some believe that the devil too can be redeemed, but I really don't think God will do this. Remember we are talking about a mythical being here that is not like a man that can repent. God can save a human through showing love and mercy - the devil doesn't work that way).

But the Bible also says at a certain point in time there will be no more tears, pain, sorrow, etc.
A devil captured forever in the LoF will fit in one of teh above I think.
???

[rosered]

I think the solution must always be found in trusting Jesus. Even when you believe in UR, you must see that you grow closer to God in some way. As I understand UR, the only difference between UR and mainstream christianity, in the essentials anyway, is that there are no truly eternal punishments except for the devil (some believe that the devil too can be redeemed, but I really don't think God will do this. Remember we are talking about a mythical being here that is not like a man that can repent. God can save a human through showing love and mercy - the devil doesn't work that way).

  Hello D .
   you are right Jesus will prove Himself faithful every time
  I had also  experienced  though trails and error  , seeing Jesus  very trustworthy  and faithful , as the end results  though all my doubts fears  troubles etc ..

  and  I think if you refine your thinking of just who or what you think the devil is will help  you sooooooo much  in understanding  what becomes of  the devil in the end ..
  just keep studying and looking into  the Lords Word  for your help ,  it takes time  bro ,  and you will never be disappointed   His Spirit within you will cast everything  else out  that needs to go
    God bless you in your journey ....

[DeeDee]

Hi DeeDee,

I think the solution must always be found in trusting Jesus. Even when you believe in UR, you must see that you grow closer to God in some way. As I understand UR, the only difference between UR and mainstream christianity, in the essentials anyway, is that there are no truly eternal punishments except for the devil (some believe that the devil too can be redeemed, but I really don't think God will do this. Remember we are talking about a mythical being here that is not like a man that can repent. God can save a human through showing love and mercy - the devil doesn't work that way).

To me mainstream christianity and Ur differ in many ways. In mainstream christianity lots of followers only love God based on fear. Many out of fear for God and others out of fear of eternal hellfire (which essentially boils down to the same thing). I believe if God wants to save "the devil" He will. If the devil is one of Gods fallen angels (even if not) we must remember that God must have some kind of love for him - then again only God knows.

Sometimes I have the suspicion that my motivations about UR aren't as clear and good as I would like to believe. I certainly know for sure that sometimes in my life I liked to listen to fears as opposed to really exercising faith.

For that reason I consider fear to be quite similar to pride in that it leads to the sin of despair. God tries to help you out of fears by leading you into the light - the light of knowing that you are watched. Now for a sinning person this is not a comfortable thought. But for someone who loves God this is a very beautiful thought, that God always looks after us.

I'm afraid that problems related to the fear of hell and condemnation, can only be cured through getting close to God. I think this is a lesson I've been being taught in the last days. And I think this really is the option God wants me to take, and has opened up for me all these years when I was afraid, to trust in my Heavenly Father and to trust in His beloved Son Jesus.

Hun no one has all the answers and no one ever will (except God). You have the right attitude now and stick to it, but pls try and put it in your mind that the mythical hell is not real. Our punishments will be something very different. Trust God, once you fully trust Him you should start to see lots of your fears dissapearing.

Let me give you an example of my life to show you what I mean. Some years ago I was in the hospital again to get my meds adjusted. Back then I was thinking much of religion. I still do, but back then I didn't know many things. Anyway, I was there in the hospital and there was a man there, around 60 years old. He had that illness you get sometimes when you get bitten by a tick. He was walking around like a very little child, and couldn't really communicate anymore. He really didn't know anymore what he was doing, he was really sick. And as far as I know, there was no option for a cure

One day I sat with him in our smoker's room and talked with the man. I don't know why I really did this, but I started to speak about Christ with Him. I told the man that He is saved too. The men went out of the room, and I spend some minutes smoking alone. Some minutes later someone loudly knocked on the door. I looked through its little window and saw the man, Jürgen, again. He screamed one word "Guilt!". (I hadn't said anything about guilt or even sin or something to him.) I went out, took Jürgen by the hand and we went down to a couch and a chair. I told him, don't worry, your sins are forgiven, you are saved, Jürgen. The rest of the day Jürgen was very elated. He was so happy all the time. He even made kind of jokes, amused the whole ward.

In the evening before I slept in I heard a voice that said: "tomorrow it will seem as if Jürgen was in Heaven for the night!". I believed that and slept in. Next morning I got up and went out and saw Jürgen getting his medicine. He was so warmhearted. And when I approached him he smiled at me, took my head in his hands and said "Please let's go for a cigarette". He was so warm with me, and the sentence he had said was the only time I ever heard him say a coherent sentence. But foolish as I was, I said no I have to go to the morning gymnastics and didn't go with him. But I became friends with Jürgen and visited him a few times in the nursing home where he was put, until they brought him far away where I couldn't visit him anymore.

God has a great heart for the needy, and I don't think He will really let someone suffer forever, though I am not 100% sure in the case of really black people like Hitler. But here on Earth everything must go the way of truth. We must seek the lost and in Christ help to save them. People must understand that not listening to Jesus simply is wrong and robs us the life of love God has in store for us. We must be careful not to cause needless suffering. We must help bring the knowledge of God's goodness to light, and we must also help each other fight the devil and his works.

.

You see, you already have lots of faith in God. You have seen how wonderful His works are. Yet to me it seems you are still more afraid of God then what you love God. I can see that you do love God alot so don't get me wrong, its just that it seems the problem here is that your fears are still very much overclouding your judgements.

Although I am not 100% persuaded of UR, it is necessary that people get to know God like He really is ... and when you let that sink in for real, the enmity with God that unfortunately has reached into many a heart, will go away.

Okay this confirms my statements above. My best advice to you is to read as many UR books as what you can. Read through the whole tentmaker website and do an internet search on Gary Amirault for other literature partaining to UR.

We know that God loves us deeply, for sure, since Calvary. But we can't escape becoming humbled. We need that. God wants to love us IN THE TRUTH, here and now, in our lives here on this difficult world. That we learn to trust this God is very important. Then we get a taste of what the afterlife is like, which is primarily a life with God.

My problem is, I guess, that sometimes when I think more directly about the concerned doctrines of salvation/damnation, that part of me wants to scream "Injust! Merciless!", etc. And this I cannot allow, because I know God's goodness and want to respond to it positively.

You see? In your heart you know that ET is not right. That is already a step in the right direction.

Still, this world will have to await much trial in the future, if we look at the book of Revelation which I consider inspired. For example, consider the two witnesses whom the world hates because they strike it with torments. That's something really scary, but it's in the book so we have to consider it.

Also, as much as I dislike ET, it is a possibility. Personally my alternative to UR is annihilationism, as it would be an eternal punishment.

Ultimately though, none of us have died and gotten to know the truth and come back here. All we know is that how we lead our life here, has effects in the afterlife as well.

The solution must always be growing closer to God. He is like the scriptures say, and what He does on this world is the exercise of justice and kindness. If I went out and sinned deliberately like by, say, doing a one night stand with a girl, I think God wouldn't like this and perhaps show the cold shoulder for a while. This stuff IS happening, and we shouldn't discount it, and neither should we simply just rely on UR for saving our butts instead of doing as God says which spares us all the trouble.

We take the whole bible as the inspired word of God. Be careful of reading scripture out of context then you are going to see 100% negative meaning. If you don't understand a certain passage in the bible, search tentmaker to see if it has been dealt with (the explanations) if not then post a thread. Christian UR is not about getting off scott free, there will be punishments, it might be very very bad punishments - only differenct is that it is not forever. Once we have "done our time" we will be reconciled with our Maker. You can't expect to sin endlessly and never have to pay for it. That is not what any of us here are teaching or preaching. Hun, really listen to your heart. Study all the UR material you can find and let go of the idea of hell (in the classic sense) - This will make a huge difference.

Blessings Dee

[jabcat]

 :goodpost: Dee.  And good questions and observations, a_n.  God's blessing, James.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Shadow... :hithere:

Bless your tormented soul... I shall call this the "MAKES SENSE" vs the "DOESN'T MAKE SENSE" post!

I want to believe UR is true but I'm also not 100% convinced

Let me explain why

I don't see how anyone sent to the lake of fire gets out of there, the best I can hope for is annihilation :sigh:

Annhilation is just an EVIL portrayal of GOD "killing" creatures which he has given LIFE to...

It is NOT a doctrine of the WORD, but of man... (I was SDA for a time, they believe in annhilation) = This just DOESN'T MAKE SENSE... :thumbdown:  :mnah: :rolleye:

There are also a number of verses that have me baffled which I see no explanation for

Mar 8:35  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

No man can SAVE his own life... this verse is noting that OUR WORKS shall come to naught, but anything we do IN CHRIST shall live forever...

Mar 8:36  For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

No man can GAIN the WHOLE WORLD... so how can he lose his "own" soul...

Mar 8:37  Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Man's SOUL is not HIS to give away!  We are NOT OUR OWN, we are BOUGHT with a PRICE...

Luk 12:16  And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:17  And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
Luk 12:18  And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
Luk 12:19  And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Luk 12:20  But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
Luk 12:21  So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Every man shall DIE... there is no avoiding this inevitable event...

You brought nothing INTO the world, and you shall take NOTHING OUT! 
To recognize this SPIRITUALLY is counsel enough to advise one that time spent here to gain material wealth which we must eventually LOSE is time spent in futility... but time spent in aspiring to the ETERNAL shall last FOREVER!  which ...MAKES SENSE!  :thumbsup: :gthumbsup: :2thumbs:

If ET is true then most people ever born are headed for it, including me as I am unable to love a God that would have predestined something so horrific for most of mankind, I can only conclude that he hates the majority of mankind (I wouldn't even want someone like Hitler to suffer something like that and I don't even like the man, how do you think I feel about my loved ones)

ET is NOT true... where is VICTORY in this teaching?  To teach that of the TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of men that have lived, a paltry FEW shall find the SALVATION of GOD, does not portray Him to be ALMIGHTY, ...nor does it pose His plan of SALVATION as VICTORIOUS...  this DOESN'T MAKE SENSE  :thumbdown:  :mnah: :rolleye:

I am a DETROIT LIONS fan,  :mblush: ...they are 0-11... and probably will be lucky to win ONE GAME... do you think that I look upon their season as VICTORIOUS, if they should win ONE GAME?  :laughing7: 

The observers of ET have such a vision... thinking GOD as VICTORIOUS, even though a MINISCULE number, were SAVED...  this just DOESN'T MAKE SENSE! :thumbdown:  :mnah: :rolleye:

What are we in comparison to an all knowing, all wise, "all loving", God, nothing, we are like lost sheep that don't know where to turn

The organized church has manufactured ways to pin the blame solely on mankind and satan without it reflecting back to God, if we go to hell it's our fault, despite God knowing everything from the beginning, if God knew and ET is true would it not have been far more loving to have never created us at all, I sure wish I'd never been created, the sad thing is if it's true then He either planned it or allowed it and there's nothing I can do about it

You poor soul... the CHURCH has instilled a fear in you which has you wishing you were never CREATED... How can that be considered as emerging from an ALL LOVING GOD?  it just DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!  :thumbdown: :mnah:  :rolleye:

UR is true... GOD is LOVE...and SALVATION is for ALL... regardless of what the CHURCH teaches... this MAKES SENSE!  :thumbsup:  :gthumbsup: :2thumbs:

ET ...just DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!  :thumbdown:  :mnah: :rolleye:

How could he have done this to most of us when He knew we couldn't accept Him, there are some that haven't even heard of Him, and unlike what Arminians teach we can't "choose" Christ

Again dear sister... You must KNOW GOD, to KNOW what He is DOING... that there are BILLIONS claiming they KNOW Him... does not mean they do... as they argue and fuss with each other, each CLAIMING THEMSELVES as the "TRUE CHURCH"...  :Yeahright:

The TRUE CHURCH are the ones which KNOW that GOD is LOVE... and TEACH LOVE, FORGIVENESS, and SALVATION for the direst sinner, for (John 1:29) the man that JESUS said was the GREATEST PROPHET born of WOMEN (Luke 7:28) said this:


John 1:29 ...behold the Lamb of GOD, that ...TAKETH AWAY... the SIN of the WORLD!  ...This MAKES SENSE!  :thumbsup:  :gthumbsup: :2thumbs:



If He TOOK SIN AWAY from the WORLD... then the WORLD's SIN is PAID FOR!  :dontknow:

This, ...MAKES SENSE!  :thumbsup:  :gthumbsup: :2thumbs:

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Have you asked FORGIVENESS from the Father in the name of CHRIST Shadow?   :dontknow:  If you have... then BELIEVE you have what you asked for! ...this ...MAKES SENSE!  :thumbsup:  :gthumbsup: :2thumbs:

GOD chooses men to do things, men do not choose.  GOD states that He is IMPARTIAL (Rom 2:11 / Acts 10:34 / Gal 2:6 / eph 6:9 / 2 Sam 14:14 / Job 34:19 / Mk 12:14) How many times does He have to say it before it is BELIEVED?  :mshock:

If in fact He IS impartial... and He SAVES one, ...then to maintain the claim, He must SAVE the others as well... This, ...MAKES SENSE!  :thumbsup:  :gthumbsup: :2thumbs:

It's ironic, I'm hated in the word, yet I'm sure I'm not one of God's chosen either :sigh:

Find rest in the PEACE of GOD sister Shadow... PEACE is the center of LOVE... LOVE seeks to redeem (John 3:16-17)

If you are the 100th Sheep, will CHRIST not leave the 99 to go look for you?  Of course He will... and He will bring you HERE, so that we can tell you that HE DOES LOVE you and that HE IS SAVING YOU... and that HE will be COMPLETELY VICTORIOUS...

THAT dear sister, ...MAKES SENSE  :thumbsup:  :gthumbsup: :2thumbs:

Logically UR makes the most sense, I only hope it's right.

Judge Judy says something almost daily, that I really love... though she is a TV judge, she has spent a lifetime studying the SPEECH of men & women in courtrooms... and this is what she says  :laughing7: ...

"If it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE... it AIN'T TRUE!"   :thumbdown: :mnah: :rolleye:

...which MAKES SENSE!   :thumbsup: :gthumbsup: :2thumbs: 


peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

[CHB]

Judge Judy says something almost daily, that I really love... though she is a TV judge, she has spent a lifetime studying the SPEECH of men & women in courtrooms... and this is what she says   ...

"If it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE... it AIN'T TRUE!"

Willie, you watch Judge Judy?  :omg: I do too. She can get rough sometimes but I think she is honest.   

Shadow, if we will be in the lake of fire for eternity, then that debt has not been paid for any one, else Christ would be burning now. The wages of sin is death, period. Christ died and was resurrected and we will be too.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Shadow, if we will be in the lake of fire for eternity, then that debt has not been paid for any one, else Christ would be burning now. The wages of sin is death, period. Christ died and was resurrected and we will be too.

Even if death (for some) is eternal then it still is no hell with flames. And even if it is it wouldn't matter:
Ecclesiastes 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

If you know nothing then you don't know the pain of the flames either.