Fire and Brimstone!

[DeeDee]

I can't find if there is already a thread like this, so if there is I am sorry for this new one. I have just come to learn that brimstone is sulphur / sulfur. I now understand how people that believe hell is in the centre of the earth make their arguments. The passages in the bible that talk of "lake of fire and brimstone" do appear to be teaching lava flow, why I say this is the lake of fire part is the lava itself and the brimstone is the sulfur found herein. They see volcano's as hell "vents". Now I have a few questions about this (don't I always  :laughing7:);

1.) Could the early churches have somehow modified doctrines to teach this? Surely some of them had witnessed volcano's before and could've gotten the idea from there.

2.) Some see sulfur as a purification symbol. Why?

3.) Could it just be a coincidence that the parable Jesus used in describing the grave, gehenna etc. fits volcano's, the centre of the earth and lava flow?

[WhiteWings]

Gehenna was a garbage dump just outside Jerusalem. They burned all their junk their including dead animals and criminals. That fire was kept burning for an X number of years. I wasn't quenched.
Before that the valey was used for child sacrifice to the god Moloch.
Kids where burned alive there and God said something like: "Such a thing would never cross my mind."about those sacrifices.

Volcanos is much more than just sulfer.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3479.0

[DeeDee]

Gehenna was a garbage dump just outside Jerusalem. They burned all their junk their including dead animals and criminals. That fire was kept burning for an X number of years. I wasn't quenched.
Before that the valey was used for child sacrifice to the god Moloch.
Kids where burned alive there and God said something like: "Such a thing would never cross my mind."about those sacrifices.

I know what Gehenna was and is today (pretty parks etc.) I more meant the whole lake of fire and brimstone deal. See I am looking for valid arguments to make against ET believers when I start to debate lol.

Blessings
Dee

[WhiteWings]

The most heavy things are the closest to the earth core.

Rougly that would be: Air -> Water -> Granite -> Basalt -> Metals

Volanos produce a lot of junk but I never heard they spit out molten metal
So that means they don't reacht to the core of the earth. My guess is they don't below the tectonic plates.
Below those plates everything is molten except the very heart of the earth core is solid iron.
So if volcano's are vents of hell, hell wouldn't be in the core.
Plus it would be more actrate to call it the lake of basalt and brimstone. Basalt being the main component.
There simply is no fire down there. No oxygen and stone/metal doesn't burn

3.) Could it just be a coincidence that the parable Jesus used in describing the grave, gehenna etc. fits volcano's, the centre of the earth and lava flow?

Can you point me to that parable?
Parables used things the audience knew. Are there volcano's in Jerusalem......  :flamebreath:

[DeeDee]

3.) Could it just be a coincidence that the parable Jesus used in describing the grave, gehenna etc. fits volcano's, the centre of the earth and lava flow?

Can you point me to that parable?
Parables used things the audience knew. Are there volcano's in Jerusalem...... 

I mean the parable where he talks of "lakes of fire and brimstone" - that fits what volcano's spit out. Lava is melted rock, very very hot melted rock. Its the stuff that is around the solid iron inner core. Around the core is the molten stuff that cools with a few degrees every thousand years or something like that, slowly making the solid inner core bigger as it cools.

[WhiteWings]

3.) Could it just be a coincidence that the parable Jesus used in describing the grave, gehenna etc. fits volcano's, the centre of the earth and lava flow?

Can you point me to that parable?
Parables used things the audience knew. Are there volcano's in Jerusalem...... 

I mean the parable where he talks of "lakes of fire and brimstone" - that fits what volcano's spit out. Lava is melted rock, very very hot melted rock. Its the stuff that is around the solid iron inner core. Around the core is the molten stuff that cools with a few degrees every thousand years or something like that, slowly making the solid inner core bigger as it cools.

DD,

Did you read what I wrote above or do you just not agree?
Let me answer you with a question.
What do do you call cooled lava? Brimstone? Basalt? Something else?
If the answer is not brimstone; can hell be inside a volcano?

About the core:
The Earth's Core is hot primarily because the core is made up mainly of iron, and as it moves through the magnetic field generated by the sun, it creates electrical eddy currents to flow in the core. Eventually, over time, the currents cause the iron to heat up. This is similar to the way running electrical current through a short circuited wire can cause it to heat up. Essentially, the same process is used by steel manufactures melt and refine metal (see induction melting). The immense pressure caused by gravity keeps the core from melting, and allows the mechanism to continue to function, therefore keeping the core at a stable temperature. As the Sun's magnetic field changes, it will inevitably cause the Earth's core temperature to change, but this will take billions of years. This effect is also responsible for the rotation of the Earth as it moves around the Sun. Induction motors are a good example of how this mechanism works. Interestingly, this counteractive field generated in the earth's core which is caused by the Sun's Magnetic field is that which protects the Earth from the harmful effects of the Sun's radiation.

[DeeDee]

If the answer is not brimstone; can hell be inside a volcano?

LOL man, wish hell was inside a volcano cos then all the poor lost souls in hell will be spat out.  :laughing7: The theory goes that volcanos are like "airvents" to hell. All I am looking for is good arguments against this all. The ET's believe that hell is in the earth and they "affirm" this with the stuff that volcano's spit out (lava) - saying that that is the stuff in hell, in other words the whole lake of fire and brimstone. They base this on the fact that sulfur (which is brimstone) is found in lava and near volcano's. I am looking for good answers to throw back at them if this topic comes up.

As the Sun's magnetic field changes, it will inevitably cause the Earth's core temperature to change, but this will take billions of years.

I read today on a science website that every thousand years (or couple of thousand years) the molten stuff (molten metals and rocks etc. which is the stuff volcano's spit out) which is around the inner core (iron) slowly cools enough that small amounts solidify making the core (solid ball of iron - compacted iron) a tiny bit bigger. But thats not my point. I just want to know how to make an argument against the ET believers that throw this statement (above mentioned).

[Derek]

Hi DeeDee,

A few helpful quotes from Gary Amirault's article "ETERNAL DEATH (Annihilation, Conditional Mortality) ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY", available in full on Tentmaker:

"The sea was made up of brimstone, called today sulfur. The word for sulfur in Greek is the word "theion." The words in Greek for God and divine are "theos" and "theios." The Greeks used brimstone for purifying their temples! Although carnal man is usually afraid of fire, fire is a symbol for God. Everyone's works will be tested by fire. Who do you think that fire is? A lump of coal or a piece of wood or literal sulfur? NO! Our Father Who is an all-consuming fire will test the works. This is a symbol for God just as the Lamb and the Lion are but symbols of Jesus....

...A few more things about fiery sulfur. It cannot be put out by water. The benefits of sulfur are too numerous to mention. In its pure state, it is tasteless, odorless, and colored light yellow. It is used in various compounds for fungicides, sulfa drugs, many skin ointments, matches, vulcanization of rubber, dyes, fixatives in photography, special cements for anchoring metals, hardening paper and woods. Sulfuric acid is one of the most important of all industrial chemicals because it is employed not only in the manufacture of sulfur-containing molecules but also in the manufacture of numerous other materials that do not themselves contain sulfur such as phosphoric acid. The acid is used in numerous industries from fertilizer, petroleum, pigments, metals, and making organic products. "

So it purifies, dis-infects, and causes changes in materials around it...another cool example of the physical reflecting the spiritual.

Derek

[WhiteWings]

If the answer is not brimstone; can hell be inside a volcano?

LOL man, wish hell was inside a volcano cos then all the poor lost souls in hell will be spat out.  :laughing7: The theory goes that volcanos are like "airvents" to hell. All I am looking for is good arguments against this all. The ET's believe that hell is in the earth and they "affirm" this with the stuff that volcano's spit out (lava) - saying that that is the stuff in hell, in other words the whole lake of fire and brimstone.

Knock knock!
I already gave you the answer miss airvent. BTW there are also underwater volcanos (even more than land) they are said to be used as showers in hell. :laughing7:
There is no brimstone in lava:
http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=4887

They base this on the fact that sulfur (which is brimstone) is found in lava and near volcano's. I am looking for good answers to throw back at them if this topic comes up.

See link above. One last try.
If there is no air down their there is also no fire.
That gives us a lake of fire and brimstone without fire.
The main component of lava as the link have shows is silica. (basalt)
Likely with traces of brimstone. Lets say 95% basalt. 1% brimstone 4% other stuff. 0% fire
And that you call fire and brimstone?

As the Sun's magnetic field changes, it will inevitably cause the Earth's core temperature to change, but this will take billions of years.

I read today on a science website that every thousand years (or couple of thousand years) the molten stuff (molten metals and rocks etc. which is the stuff volcano's spit out) which is around the inner core (iron) slowly cools enough that small amounts solidify making the core (solid ball of iron - compacted iron) a tiny bit bigger. But thats not my point. I just want to know how to make an argument against the ET believers that throw this statement (above mentioned).

See above. And above that  :laughing7:
The core getting bigger is of importance. It means the whole earth will get solid. So hell freezes over..... :happygrin:

[martincisneros]

The Lake of Fire pamphlet from this series of pamphlets is really good:

http://www.sigler.org/eby/savior_of_the_word_series.htm

And here's a couple of quotes from Homer.  First from the Odyssey:

Odysseus speaks:
"Let me have the fire. The first thing is to purify this place."
With no more chat Eurykleia obeyed
and fetched out fire and brimstone. Cleansing fumes
he sent through court and hall and storage chamber.
Then the old woman hurried off again
to the women's quarters to announce her news,
and all the servants came now, bearing torches
in twilight, crowding to embrace Odysseus,
and taking his hands to kiss, his head and shoulders,
while he stood there, nodding to every one,
and overcome by longing and by tears.

And a quote from the Illiad:

Akhilleus went into his hut. He lifted up the lid of a seachest, all intricately wrought, that Thetis of the silver feet had stowed aboard his ship for him to take to Illion, filled to the brim with shirts, wind-breaking cloaks, and fleecy rugs. His hammered cup was there, from which no other man had drank the bright wine, and he made offering to no god but Zeus. Lifting it from the chest, he purified it first with brimstone, washed it with water, and washed his hands, and dipped it full of wine.

[DeeDee]

Thanks Martin, you gave me some good material and evidence to use.

WhiteWings  :laughing7:  :laughing7: you are sooooooooooooo funny hun

BTW there are also underwater volcanos (even more than land) they are said to be used as showers in hell.

Think that is why we get along so well! lol.

There is no brimstone in lava:
http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=4887

Yes, but there is sulphuric acid found near volcano's.

If there is no air down their there is also no fire.
That gives us a lake of fire and brimstone without fire.
The main component of lava as the link have shows is silica. (basalt)
Likely with traces of brimstone. Lets say 95% basalt. 1% brimstone 4% other stuff. 0% fire
And that you call fire and brimstone?

Thanks this is ganna be useful 2, but sadly you know how ET works, they will say the lake of fire was a description of red hot lava, not necessarily real fire. I get it, lol don't worry - I researched this 2. Its just getting the message through to others in a nice simple straightforward way.

Thanks buddies

DeeDee

[WhiteWings]

but sadly you know how ET works, they will say the lake of fire was a description of red hot lava, not necessarily real fire.

When you don't take the Bible literally....
I'm sure LoF represents something. All will agree with that.
But if it is not literally what is it then?
If God wants to tell us something literally He shurely will be able to find the right words.
Lake of molten rock for example.

Don't get me wrong with my answers that only going the lava theory. That was just because you directly asked for it.
If you have looked at my theion thread (and other posts) you will know that my thoughts are close to what Martin wrote a few posts above.
My idea is that it is that the LoF is a cleaning spiritual fire. Perhaps it's the essence of God Himself. I have no clear picture of how it looks etc. It might be a nasty time. But no torture.

[martincisneros]

What I'm praying through right now is that the Lake of Fire seems to be the opposite of Noah's Flood so that those whose names aren't written in the Lamb's book of life in that particular generation will vaguely hear the Lord say "Well done" but not in a good way!  Execution, but not unending torture and torment.  2Peter 3 is the main passage of Scripture that I'm looking at that's fascinating the heck out of me along those lines, although there's also one in Jude that I'm looking at.  I don't believe that there's a single Scripture to base the phrase "Final Judgment" on because our relationship with the Lord is ongoing and eternal. 

As we had a "New Earth" after Noah's Flood to where even 2Peter 3 in talking about the preflood world will allude to the world that then was in one of the translations, I believe we'll have a "New Earth" after the Lake of Fire judgment as the book of Revelation indicates.  Somewhere in the last couple of chapters it says that there's no sea.  Since it's a passage in relation to Jerusalem, then we're likely looking at no more Dead Sea since that's got a volcano underneath it and that's what took out Sodom and Gomorrah and Jude's epistle says that they're THE EXAMPLE of age-lasting fire.  With how big that New Jerusalem is supposed to be, we might even be talking about there being no more Mediteranean Sea with how catastrophic the fires of that eon will be that lead into the New Earth described in the last couple of chapters of Revelation.

Whether that means that Christians in that day have all of the NASA technology and conveniently aren't here, or whether that even possibly means a rapture of some type, per 1Thessalonians 4, because we're assured in Romans and Thessalonians that we're delivered from the wrath to come, I don't know which means of deliverance that it could be for Christians at that time.  But a molten earth would definitely be all of the fire and brimstone that you could stand and more than you could stand!  What's a little creepy about my interpretation is the Night of the Living Dead scenario that would seem implicit in Revelation 20 since that chapter talks about the raising of the dead prior to the big barbecue.  While I do believe in literally being raised from the dead, there's probably something in those prophecies that won't be fully apparent in their meaning until it's the generation that'll experience all of that.

If it were either a world-wide fire or a global fire at that time, then when it's called the Second Death that might be in contrast with Noah's Flood as being the first death rather than the deaths of Adam, each individual, or Christ being the First Death.  This is making more and more sense to me as the right interpretation, although it flies in the face of those who see something redemptive in the Lake of Fire.  It's the Blood of Christ that's redemptive according to all of the Scriptures in the signature of this post and dozens more that I could have quoted along those lines.  I don't believe that the Lake of Fire is necessarily a judgment that everyone goes through.  It's very likely the judgment of everyone that lived through the millenial period that hadn't been previously judged.  And again, the Lake of Fire judgment, whether it's volcanic or whatever, only applies to those whose names aren't in the Lamb's book of life. 

Those whose names aren't in the Lamb's book of life are simply those who'd never confessed Jesus as the Lord of their lives.  But, I can neither prove that 100% and neither can anyone refute that 100%.  There's some mystery as far as what the Lamb's book of life is.  It could be the book of Remembrance mentioned in Malachi, although some fundamentalists would try to tear me to shreds over that although they wouldn't have a single Scripture to base their comments on.  If it were a book that had everyone's name in it that had ever lived, or even every Christian that's ever lived, then why isn't it given more prominence in at least the New Testament?  I have a sneaky suspicion that it only logs the names of Christians that are in specific generations that'll face judgment so that the Angels will know who to protect, defend, and tell to get the heck out of Dodge, as in the case of the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century.

[WhiteWings]

we might even be talking about there being no more Mediteranean Sea with how catastrophic the fires of that eon will be that lead into the New Earth described in the last couple of chapters of Revelation.

Whether that means that Christians in that day have all of the NASA technology and conveniently aren't here, or whether that even possibly means a rapture of some type,

Revelation 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Doesn't that verse mean the Christians are still on earth and the fire burns outside the place where the live?
That would mean all Christians would have gathered in one place...?
I think I need someone explaining that verse  :happy3:

[Derek]

Hi Martin,

Regarding your mention of the "book of life", I came across another passage in the Gary A. article I referenced above that you might find interesting:

"There are some Bibles which state that "if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the "BOOK of life" (KJV, NKJV) while others warn that one would lose their part in the "TREE of life." (NIV, NASB, etc) So which is it? Can one find out? Yes, they can, but they need to "study to show themselves approved." The correct text reads "tree of life." The King James New Testament is based upon a Greek Text which came to be know as the "Textus Receptus." This text was thrown together in 1516 from a handful of late Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. But none of them had the complete book of Revelation so he "borrowed" from the Latin Vulgate. One of the verses he borrowed was Revelation 20:19 which incorrect in the Latin."

Derek

[martincisneros]

One of the verses he borrowed was Revelation 20:19 which incorrect in the Latin."

The above sentence has a typo because Revelation 20 only has 15 verses, but Revelation 22:19 mentions the handling of the contents of the book of Revelation and the consequences of abusing that book with editing.  Revelation 20:15 that mentions that anyone whose name isn't in the book goes into the big barbecue/volcano/whatever is pretty consistent across the translations and Greek manuscripts.

[martincisneros]

Revelation 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

I'm still working through the meaning of this verse because it may or it may not involve Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39.  I could show you a whole lot of scholars that believe that they're two entirely different incidents.  But the scholars have been wrong before!  But sometimes they're right, so I'm still working on it.  But the fire that falls from heaven in that situation when the demonic tries to surround God's people is not the same thing as the Lake of Fire which happens next.  Or at least, I don't think it is at this point.

[WhiteWings]

Revelation 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

I'm still working through the meaning of this verse because it may or it may not involve Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39.  I could show you a whole lot of scholars that believe that they're two entirely different incidents.  But the scholars have been wrong before!  But sometimes they're right, so I'm still working on it.  But the fire that falls from heaven in that situation when the demonic tries to surround God's people is not the same thing as the Lake of Fire which happens next.  Or at least, I don't think it is at this point.

I see. So it the fire is some sort of wall that keeps the evil out?
If so then the Christians have to come to one single place. Unless I have to read that 'the camp' is just many 1 person camps.

[martincisneros]

I see. So it the fire is some sort of wall that keeps the evil out?
If so then the Christians have to come to one single place. Unless I have to read that 'the camp' is just many 1 person camps.

It says that the enemy is devoured by the fire, so that may mean a physical enemy, or it may not.  What gets to me about some of the premillenial dispensationalism is that so many in that camp -- and I'm not meaning to imply all by any means, but many of them -- are all too ready to say that all of the Christians during the millenium and on the New Earth are confined to Jerusalem.  If this were either of those two time periods, we could still be elsewhere and that particular judgment have absolutely nothing to do with us as either participants or spectators, and it wouldn't be a reflection upon our relationship with God and it wouldn't be a reflection upon our righteousness in Christ.  And definitely on the New Earth if we're talking about those that are outside of New Jerusalem, then there's going to be the Holy Spirit and many Christians wandering outside of the New Jerusalem to go and get them, to bring them into relationship with Christ and God, etc. 

This may seem either boring or sacrilegious to some people, but I don't see any reason why either during the millenium or on the New Earth why either of us would necessarily have to be somewhere other than the city that we're currently in.  It may be Christ or Hell, but it's definitely not Jerusalem or Hell or New Jerusalem or Hell.  There is a passage in Zechariah about nations coming to Jerusalem three times a year and if they fail to, then they'll suffer various plagues and other evils, but it's a strong likelihood that it's talking about representatives of those nations and not necessarily all 10 billion people trying to squeeze into either Old Jerusalem or through the gates of New Jerusalem.  New Jerusalem is very big, but you could still create a ridiculous situation with taking months and months for people trying to get in through the gates!  King James says His commandments aren't grievious and other translations will usually say that they're not burdensome. 

Trying to mandate that every man, woman, and child be there would just be an impossible feat unless we all had flying cars and somewhere to park them when we got there, still remembering that even in such a Star Trek scenario that you're talking about billions upon billions of automobiles.  Private planes are getting faster and faster and cheaper and cheaper, by comparison with a few years ago, but you've still got to have somewhere to either land or park the thing if there was a way around having to land them.  I don't think that it's so much the prophecies that get ridiculous sometimes as it is some of the interpretations, as in the case of the Zechariah prophecy that some would try to imply means that every single person has to make it to Jerusalem 3 times a year or they're going to burn in Hell, etc.  If it's doable, then fine, but some details aren't going to have crystal clarity until the events are set up to happen in the near future.  Perhaps it'll be with the push of a button and we'll all be teleported there, if we're still in these mortal bodies at the time that some of these passages are occuring, but I'm not sure if the Scriptures give us much of an insight on that being the case although that would be the most practical in a situation where absolutely everybody had to be there.

The fire that falls in Revelation 20 [on Gog and Magog] appears to fall in the Jerusalem area rather than globally.  I'm wondering if what the NASB translates as the broad plain of the earth in Revelation 20:9, if prhaps that could be the Valley of Megiddo again.  If this were, then it might either be a repeat or a retelling of Revelation 19, and if that were the case then the Lake of Fire and brimstone could be the birds of the air gorging themselves on the flesh of the wicked.  But some would ask if birds are ever associated in a close connection with fire.  An odd passage would be Isaiah 34 where the land's given over to fire and then later to birds and there's nothing to indicate that God's doing the same miracle for the animals in that passage that he did for the three guys thrown into the fire in the book of Daniel.  If that were the case, and Revelation 20 were somehow either the whole chapter or a part of it a simple retelling of Revelation 19, then that would make sense of Isaiah 66:24.  And if I were right about what I said 2 or 3 posts ago on this same thread about the fountains of the great deep being broken up and the windows of heaven opening with fire instead of with water, then Isaiah 66 talks about the New Earth in verses 22 through 24 and that passage closes with the bodies that are present where the fire's not yet totally out from whatever volcanic or whatever disaster that lead us to that point in history.

[WhiteWings]

Somewhere in the last couple of chapters it says that there's no sea.  Since it's a passage in relation to Jerusalem, then we're likely looking at no more Dead Sea since that's got a volcano underneath it and that's what took out Sodom and Gomorrah and Jude's epistle says that they're THE EXAMPLE of age-lasting fire. 

Martin do you have more info on that?
Few websites perhaps.

[WhiteWings]

Can the fire wiping out Gog and Magog be some weapon like a nukes?