A grave for the wicked and a grave for the good

[WhiteWings]

http://www.biblebaptistpublications.org/hell.html

Few quotes. Red are my remarks.

The premise that the Bible is a symbolic book, much less a "highly" symbolic one, is a false premise.  Yes, the Bible offers some symbolism, as do most writings of men, but Satan has deceived people into over-emphasizing Biblical symbolism.  Most of the Bible deals with history—the history of man's relationship to his Creator.  Within that recorded history one can learn of many things about God and His plan.  As He reveals these things to us, He sometimes uses symbolism, but this doesn't make the Bible a symbolic book.  It is simply a book that contains some symbolism

According to the Bible, He does.  The term "hell" occurs 54 times in the Bible, and never once is it impossible for the word to be taken literally.  Take the first occurrence, for instance, which is Deuteronomy 32:22: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."  To say that "hell" in this verse is symbolic would demand further comment regarding the earth and the mountains.  Are they symbolic as well?  "Maybe they are," one might suggest.  Well, if they too are symbolic, then convenient symbolism becomes the standard by which men read and understand the Bible.  If that's the case, then why bother reading it at all?  Everything in the Bible could mean anything, and no one would know anything for certain.  There must be a safe standard by which we can distinguish symbolism from literal application.  The safest standard is the possibility standard: if it's possible that a given passage can be literal, then it is literal.  If it's impossible, then it's symbolic ("I am the door," etc.) Anyone who seeks a lesser standard is not a Bible believer and is not worthy of your learning time.

Why does that verse reference to mountains?

The first word, the Hebrew word sheol is used 65 times in the Old Testament Hebrew text from which the King James Bible was translated.  Sometimes the word is translated as grave, but always with a negative connotation.  For instance, Job 21:13 speaks of the wicked and says, "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave."  The Hebrew word for grave in this verse is shoel, a negative word, because it is a negative thing when wicked people die and go to hell, even though their bodies go to the grave.  Their souls are in hell while their bodies are in the grave with no hope of a resurrection; therefore the negative sheol is used.



Psalm 9:17 says, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."  Here sheol is the word for hell, which some suggest should be translated as grave.  But there is no real warning in saying that the wicked shall be turned into the grave (since we all go there), therefore hell in this verse implies something more than the grave, something deeper than the grave.  Hell isn't the grave, but it would be proper to say that hell is a grave for the soul, located in the mantle and outer core of the earth, both of which are under one's bodily grave.  Only in that sense is hell anyone's grave.  


Every time sheol is used it is used negatively, whether it's translated hell, grave, or even pit, yet

yet Hebrew words other than sheol are used in reference to the common burial of the righteous.  Job 17:16 presents a good example:  "They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust." If we substitute the words pit and dust with the Hebrew words, the verse would read, "They shall go down to the bars of sheol, when our rest together is in aphar."  Notice that "they" (the ones in sheol, or the pit) are not said to be resting, but "our" rest (Job speaking, being a righteous man) is in another place, a place called aphar, which simply means the dust, the earth, the ground.  The "hell is the grave" crowd never makes this distinction.  The meaning of the word sheol itself should be enough to make the distinction for them because the word means to inquire, request, or demand.  If you've read Luke 16 lately, then you know that people in hell are requesting plenty.  To be in sheol (hell) is to be in a place of dissatisfaction and asking for help.  To be in sheol (the grave) is to be a dead lost man whose body will never be glorified like that of the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore he too is not satisfied and not resting in peace.  In both cases, sheol concerns a lost man.  In my personal studies, I have not found a single place in the Bible where sheol refers to the peaceful grave of the righteous.  Rachel's "grave" in Genesis 35:20 is the Hebrew geburah, not sheol.  Josiah, a good king, didn't go to sheol when he died (II Kgs. 22:20); he went to geber gibrah (a peaceful burying place, a grave).  Yes, the wicked too go to a burying place, but not in hope of a resurrection, therefore their burying place is called sheol, as is their place of torment.

[WhiteWings]

The Greek words for hell are hades and gehenna.  Hades has basically the same meaning as sheol, while gehenna was the city dump of Jerusalem, used as a similitude to describe hell, God's "dump" for the wicked.

Some Rich man and Lazrus follows to connect grave to fire. And because it uses real names it can't be a parable according to the author.

A fourth argument is that only one's body goes to the grave at death, not one's soul.  The Christian, in death, is said to be "absent from the body" and "present with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:8).  The body of the Christian obviously goes to the grave like the body of anyone else, yet the Bible declares that the Christian himself (in distinction from his body) goes to be with the Lord.  So, there is a separate dwelling place other than the grave.  If this is true with Christians, then it is also true with unbelievers, which  is made clear in the Scripture already provided from Luke 16:23-24, as well as in other passages.

A final and most logical argument against hell being the grave is the fact that Jesus said "it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." (Mat. 18:9)  If hell is only the common grave, then it certainly would not be better to suffer a handicap forever than to simply die and be gone forever, suffering no affliction at all.  Obviously, Jesus was indicating that hell is something far worse than a physical handicap.

[WhiteWings]

Why did God create hell?

According to Matthew 25:41, God originally created hell for "the devil and his angels."  In the very beginning, it was not God's intention for any man to suffer the torments of hell, but then man chose to follow the way of Satan by becoming a sinner

Meaning God didn't foresee that man would become a sinner....

The statement that "God is love," from I John 4:8, is a true statement, but it is also true that the rest of the Bible is true.  God has many attributes, not just love, and He never intended for us to define Him as love only.  God is just as much a God of justice as He is a God of love.  In fact, the Bible's greatest love verse, John 3:16, wouldn't even be in the Bible if God were not a God of justice.  Deuteronomy 32:4 says, "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."  It was God's attribute of justice that required a sin payment to be made at Calvary.  God is love, yes, but God is not only love.

One reason, and the most important reason, is the fact that His word declares it.  God isn't what men think He is; God is what He says He is, and He will do what He says He will do.  Over and over again the Scriptures state that God will damn the wicked to Hell.  The same apostle who wrote "God is love" also wrote "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)  David, "the sweet psalmist of Israel" (II Sam. 23:1), also wrote "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup."  (Psa. 11:5-6)  Moses knew the God of love "face to face" (Deu. 34:10), yet that didn't stop him from writing Deuteronomy 32:22: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."  Peter walked side by side with Jesus for over three years, but that didn't keep him from sounding the warning of II Peter 3:7:  "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."  There are other examples that could be presented, but one more will suffice.  Jesus Himself, the One who gave us that great love verse, John 3:16, later said, "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."  (Mark 9:43-48)  Yes, God is love.  He loved the world so much that He paid the ultimate price by sending His Son to pay the sin debt of all men.  But that love is only accessible to those who receive it.  Those who refuse it will receive God's wrath.  We know this because the Bible declares it.

The third reason is that nature displays it.  Nature clearly displays the fact that God allows suffering.  In fact, the Scriptures make this point very well in Romans 8:18-22:  "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." Friend, suffering is continuing all around us daily, and anyone can observe this, if only they'll open their eyes.  If you had meat for dinner over the past few days, it is only because an animal suffered and died first.  If you wear leather shoes or have a leather wallet or purse, it is only because an innocent animal suffered and died.  The animal did nothing to deserve such treatment, yet God allowed it to be killed.

[DeeDee]

Deuteronomy 32:22: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

THIS is one of those verses that had me convinced hell is in the centre of the earth.

and shall consume the earth with her increase

volcano's erupting

and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

Volcano's

The theory goes that volcanic lava is the stuff that is in hell. I must say to me this fits perfectly and will always be one of the things that makes me shudder.

[WhiteWings]

Hi DD,

You might like this:

A short to-the-point commentary

Deu 32:22 
The lowest hell - שאול תחתית  sheol tachtith, the very deepest destruction; a total extermination, so that the earth - their land, and its increase, and all their property, should be seized; and the foundations of their mountains - their strongest fortresses, should be razed to the ground. All this was fulfilled in a most remarkable manner in the last destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, so that of the fortifications of that city not one stone was left on another. See the notes on Matthew 24 (note).

And even there is a way out.

Psa 86:13  For Thy kindness is great toward me, And Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest Sheol.

Another short one

Deu 32:19-25 
The revolt of Israel was described in the foregoing verses, and here follow the resolves of Divine justice as to them. We deceive ourselves, if we think that God will be mocked by a faithless people. Sin makes us hateful in the sight of the holy God. See what mischief sin does, and reckon those to be fools that mock at it.

A longer commentary showing we are taking about the whole land of Isreal. Not about persons. But about tribes, kingdoms, political systems

Deu 32:1-52  
We have the prophetic song, which is based on the foreknown fall of the people. First, it declares the perfectness of Jehovah, whatever may take place; it is Israel who have corrupted themselves (compare Psa_22:3. Christ can say, "Why?") At the same time (Deu_32:8) we have an all-important declaration; namely, that God, in His government of the world, had made Israel the centre, and had arranged the nations of the earth, in their various localities, as having respect to the bounds of Israel as being the first object of those ways. For His earthly people are Jehovah's portion, His inheritance upon earth. But Jeshurun (Israel) waxed fat, and kicked, and forsook the Rock of his strength. Consequently God moves them to jealousy with those that are not a people. It is the call of the Gentiles, according to Rom_10:19.
The judgment, nevertheless, falls upon Israel, so that God would have destroyed them, had not the glory of His name hindered Him, for the Gentiles proved themselves perfectly wicked. Then, the people being distressed, without strength and without hope, He remembers them, and finally takes vengeance on their enemies, those idolatrous Gentiles. But, though avenging Himself, it is then that, having restored His people Israel, He will cause the Gentiles to rejoice in Him.
This principle is true already; but the testimony it furnishes will be fully accomplished when Israel is again restored to the enjoyment of the promises; when God will manifest His mercy towards His land, as well as towards His people. The whole course of His dealings, in respect of the people who form the centre of His ways upon earth, is thus fully brought out. Afterwards, Moses puts obedience (the great end of this book, Israel being placed under the condition of obedience for continuance in the enjoyment of the promises) before them again, and reminds them that thereby they would prolong their days in the land which they were going up to possess.
At last poor Moses has to go up Mount Nebo, to see the land into which he cannot enter, not having answered the requirement of the glory of God in the wilderness, nor sanctified His name by faith. It is the unavoidable consequence of the just government of God towards a servant-I mean under the law. He does not get into the enjoyment of the promise. A single fault deprives him of it.

[WhiteWings]

Deu 32:19-25  
The method of this song follows the method of the predictions in the foregoing chapter, and therefore, after the revolt of Israel from God, described in the foregoing verses, here follow immediately the resolves of divine Justice concerning them; we deceive ourselves if we think that God will be thus mocked by a foolish faithless people, that play fast and loose with him.
I. He had delighted in them, but now he would reject them with detestation and disdain, Deu_32:19. When the Lord saw their treachery, and folly, and base ingratitude, he abhorred them, he despised them, so some read it. Sin makes us odious in the sight of the holy God; and no sinners are so loathsome to him as those that he has called, and that have called themselves, his sons and his daughters, and yet have been provoking to him. Note, The nearer any are to God in profession the more noisome are they to him if they are defiled in a sinful way, Psa_106:39, Psa_106:40.
II. He had given them the tokens of his presence with them and his favour to them; but now he would withdraw and hide his face from them, Deu_32:20. His hiding his face signifies his great displeasure; they had turned their back upon God, and now God would turn his back upon them (compare Jer_18:17 with Jer_2:27); but here it denotes also the slowness of God's proceedings against them in a way of judgment. They began in their apostasy with omissions of good, and so proceeded to commissions of evil. In like manner God will first suspend his favours, and let them see what the issue of that will be, what a friend they lose when they provoke God to depart, and will try whether this will bring them to repentance. Thus we find God hiding himself, as it were, in expectation of the event, Isa_57:17. To justify himself in leaving them he shows that they were such as there was no dealing with; for, 1. They were froward and a people that could not be pleased, or obstinate in sin, and that could not be convinced and reclaimed. 2. They were faithless, and a people that could not be trusted. When he saved them, and took them into covenant, he said, Surely they are children that will not lie (Isa_63:8); but when they proved otherwise, children in whom is no faith, they deserved to be abandoned, and that the God of truth should have no more to do with them.
III. He had done every thing to make them easy and to please them, but now he would do that against them which should be most vexatious to them. The punishment here answers the sin, Deu_32:21. 1. They had provoked God with despicable deities which were not gods at all, but vanities, creatures of their own imagination, that could not pretend either to merit or to repay the respects of their worshippers; the more vain and vile the gods were after which they went a whoring the greater was the offence to that great and good God whom they set them up in competition with and contradiction to. This put two great evils into their idolatry, Jer_2:13. 2. God would therefore plague them with despicable enemies, that were worthless, weak, and inconsiderable, and not deserving the name of a people, which was a great mortification to them, and aggravated the oppressions they groaned under The more base the people were that tyrannised over them the more barbarous they would be (none so insolent as a beggar on horseback), besides that it would be infamous to Israel, who had so often triumphed over great and mighty nations, to be themselves trampled upon by the weak and foolish, and to come under the curse of Canaan, who was to be a servant of servants. But God can make the weakest instrument a scourge to the strongest sinner; and those that by sin insult their might Creator are justly insulted by the meanest of their fellow-creatures. This was remarkably fulfilled in the days of the judges, when they were sometimes oppressed by the very Canaanites themselves, whom they had subdued, Jdg_4:2. But the apostle applies it to the conversion of the Gentiles, who had been a people not in covenant with God, and foolish in divine things, yet were brought into the church, sorely to the grief of the Jews, who upon all occasions showed a great indignation at it, which was both their sin and their punishment, as envy always is, Rom_10:19.
IV. He had planted them in a good land, and replenished them with all good things; but now he would strip them of all their comforts, and bring them to ruin. The judgments threatened are very terrible, Deu_32:22-25. 1. The fire of God's anger shall consume them, Deu_32:22. Are they proud of their plenty? It shall burn up the increase of the earth. Are they confident of their strength? It shall destroy the very foundations of their mountains: there is no fence against the judgments of God when they come with commission to lay all waste. It shall burn to the lowest hell, that is, it shall bring them to the very depth of misery in this world, which yet would be but a faint resemblance of the complete and endless misery of sinners in the other world. The damnation of hell (as our Saviour calls it) is the fire of God's anger, fastening upon the guilty conscience of a sinner, to its inexpressible and everlasting torment, Isa_30:33. 2. The arrows of God's judgments shall be spent upon them, till his quiver is quite exhausted, Deu_32:23. The judgments of God, like arrows, fly swiftly (Psa_64:7), reaching those at a distance who flatter themselves with hopes of escaping them, Psa_21:8, Psa_21:12. They come from an unseen hand, but wound mortally, for God never misses his mark, 1Ki_22:34. The particular judgments here threatened are, (1.) Famine: they shall be burnt, or parched, with hunger. (2.) Pestilence and other diseases, here called burning heat and bitter destruction. (3.) The insults of the inferior creatures: the teeth of beasts and the poison of serpents, Deu_32:24. (4.) War and the fatal consequences of it, Deu_32:25. [1.] Perpetual frights. When the sword is without, there cannot but be terror within. 2Co_7:5, Without were fightings, within were fears. Those who cast off the fear of God are justly exposed to the fear of enemies. [2.] Universal deaths. The sword of the Lord, when it is sent to lay all waste, will destroy without distinction; neither the strength of the young man nor the beauty of the virgin, neither the innocency of the suckling nor the gravity or infirmity of the man of gray hairs, will be their security from the sword when it devours one as well as another. Such devastation does war make, especially when it is pushed on by men as ravenous as wild beasts and as venomous as serpents, Deu_32:24. See here what mischief sin does, and reckon those fools that make a mock at it.

[WhiteWings]

Commentary from Gill. A person that often is on the doom and gloom ET side of things in his commentaries even speaks of destruction of a nation/system. Not about people

Deu 32:22  For a fire is kindled in mine anger,.... Here begins the account of temporal and corporeal judgments inflicted on the Jews for their disbelief and rejection of the Messiah, their contempt of his Gospel, and ill treatment of his followers; and this here respects the destruction of the land of Judea in general, and the burning of the city and temple of Jerusalem in particular, as the effect of the wrath and anger of God like fire kindled against them:

and shall burn unto the lowest hell; which denotes an entire destruction, like that of the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone from heaven; which issued in a sulphurous lake, and which sulphureous matter sunk to the bottom of the Dead Sea; and to that destruction is this of the land of Judea compared, Deu_29:23,

and shall consume the earth with her increase: the land of Judea, with the cities and towns in it, and buildings on it, and the fruits of the earth; which were either gathered into their barns and storehouses, or were growing in their fields, and vineyards, and oliveyards; all were destroyed and consumed at or before the destruction of Jerusalem, or quickly after it:

and set on fire the foundations of the mountains; the city of Jerusalem, as Jarchi himself interprets it, whose foundations were by the mountains, according to Psa_125:2; and the temple of Jerusalem particularly was built on Mount Moriah, and that as well as the city was utterly consumed by fire: and it is remarkable that when Julian the apostate attempted to rebuild it, as is related even by an Heathen historian (a), that flames of fire burst out from the foundations, and burnt the workmen; so that he was obliged to desist from his rash undertaking.

(a) Ammian. Marcellin. l. 23. in initio.

[rosered]

 
I know that alot of things in the Bible are not literal  and was  just wanting to speak metaphorically  here  on the mountain /man  being on fire within every man  shall be made low /humbled .........


  that verse  is  symbolic to me as a king with a kingdom   that is what a mountain is as well as hills are rulers 


  here is  the explaination of mountain in rev  17

rev 17   9 Here is the mind which has wisdom The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,

10and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

does this make it more clear Deu 32:22 
The lowest hell - שאול תחתית  sheol tachtith, the very deepest destruction; a total extermination, so that the earth - their land, and its increase, and all their property, should be seized; and the foundations of their mountains - their strongest fortresses, should be razed to the ground. All this was fulfilled in a most remarkable manner in the last destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, so that of the fortifications of that city not one stone was left on another. See the notes on Matthew 24 (note).

  Jerusalem is the church in bondage .....

[WhiteWings]

I think again you didn't miss the mark  :laughing7:


:spank:  :robinhood:

[rosered]

I think again you didn't miss the mark  :laughing7:


:spank:  :robinhood:

:laughing7:  There is so many bro , I cannot even write them all down !   for one I am to lazy  :mblush: and not ready to fight off the wolves :ticked:  :eek: :shout:   and I love to learn  new things  :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

Deuteronomy 32:22: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

THIS is one of those verses that had me convinced hell is in the centre of the earth.

and shall consume the earth with her increase

volcano's erupting

and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

Volcano's

The theory goes that volcanic lava is the stuff that is in hell. I must say to me this fits perfectly and will always be one of the things that makes me shudder.

:flamebreath:    <== ET preacher

DD,

If those  :flamebreath: try to use science they better do some research....
Fist of all the earth started as a ball of fire 4.5 billion years ago. If you take a walk on the North Pole you will notice it has cooled down a bit. It will keep doing so until it's solid.
This simply means that hell hell freezes over  :laughing7:

But before that.....

The sun is about 4.5 billion years old and it is estimated to still possess a 5-billion year supply of hydrogen (hydrogen is the fuel that drives nuclear fusion on the sun). Therefore, it is predicted that our sun will die in approximately 5 billion years.

Once the sun has converted all its hydrogen into helium, the sun will change from its current form, a yellow dwarf, into a red giant. As a red giant, its diameter will extend well beyond the orbit of Venus, and even possibly beyond the orbit of Earth. When the sun enters the red giant phase, in which it will spend the final 10 percent of its lifetime, the Earth will be burned to a cinder.