Saved, sins and works

[WhiteWings]

Saved, sins and works.
On themselfs they are not to hard to understand concepts.

Saved: Only by the believe in Jesus you are saved.
Sins: Sins equal death (block salvation)
Works: The Bible to commands to be good in all kind of ways for others; but it will not be enough to enter Heaven.

Now assume a very frequent sinner that somehow got convinced that the Bible is true. The person accepts Jesus and believes every letter written in the Bible.
Lets just take one of his sins. He cursed 20 times a day. Before he got religious that didn't mean much IMO because what's the 'value' of a curse toward something you think doesn't exist.

The person now tries to lessen his cursing. Lets say he's able to tune down the frequency down to 10 times swearing a day.
That sounds good. He swears less so he sins less.
But isn't less swearing 'works'
So that person is adding his works on top of the works Jesus has done.
That means that person doesn't fully trust the works of Jesus and tries to improve the works by adding some himself
But the alternative is keep swearing and that isn't good either.

Am I the only one seeing a paradox here?

[rosered]

 
  Hi WW ,
I think not so much  paradox 
as it is knowledge of sin ,  which is our convictions  and our conscience 
makes us aware ,and thats where the battle begins to me ..
  what  one thinks is "good" or "bad"  work  could be the paradox though ...

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that" knows to do good," and does [it] not, to him it is sin.

conviction  –noun 1. a fixed or firm belief.
2. the act of convicting.
3. the state of being convicted.
4. the act of convincing.
5. the state of being convinced.




Origin:
1400–50; late ME < LL convictiōn- (s. of convictiō) proof (of guilt). See convict, -ion
we cannot always go by what we feel
  Feeling good or bad about  an act can cause emotion  LIKE anger , guilt  a sense of  unworthiness   defeat  etc , this  is the souls  position to me  where the seat of emotions   can and do cause change and effects on our well being  , alot of evil has been done in the name of Jesus 
by ones  thinking that was what God wants from them , example  being  the wicth hunts of mid evil times  ? :mshock:
   
being saved to me does play on some this "healing of Jesus Christ or the knowledge of what is expected of us  as individuals  being associated  with the Name Jesus Christ , and what is asked of us

  just  :2c: in the pot bro .. hee hee

[rosered]

   
PS .........
cursing to me is a sign of frustration ,  speaking plainly and being angry

  in the olden  days to curse   someone was to  wish evil upon them
a revenge thingy  :msealed:..........

[WhiteWings]

Rose,

I don't understand your  :2c:

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that" knows to do good," and does [it] not, to him it is sin.

Ok I can accept that the previous sinner wasn't aware he was sinner because he didn't understand.
Now that sinner does understand. Swearing has become one of his daily routines. Just as logical as eating and drinking.
That's only one of his sins.
Now he understands he sinned and still sins; what are his steps to take?
Continue sinning (=bad) and trusting Jesus (=good) washed away all sins?
Or lessen/stop sinning (=good) and thereby trying to improve the works (=bad) of Jesus?

[rosered]

Rose,

I don't understand your  :2c:

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that" knows to do good," and does [it] not, to him it is sin.

Ok I can accept that the previous sinner wasn't aware he was sinner because he didn't understand.
Now that sinner does understand. Swearing has become one of his daily routines. Just as logical as eating and drinking.
That's only one of his sins.
Now he understands he sinned and still sins; what are his steps to take?
Continue sinning (=bad) and trusting Jesus (=good) washed away all sins?
Or lessen/stop sinning (=good) and thereby trying to improve the works (=bad) of Jesus?

  Well bro that was my point being aware  of his sin , dont you think that is the start of it ??
  being saved / spared for change  and all ?

  when he was not aware of his bad  habit   he had  nothing  good or bad  to  consider
  but now being awakened out of the sleep state old Adam 
  did you ever note that the old Adam when the Lord put him in that deep sleep / forming Eve out of his rib , was not awakened   at  all  , to me Not till the Lord comes ?


Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed. we don't rise up till we are  Shaken and spoke to by the Lords Spirit   moving stirring within us ,
  to me it is the metaphorical   of  the  earthquke in the earth [our body of dust/clay] old Adam

  and the Lord makes the new Adam

  some times Bro the Lords grace is sufficient  and we trust in His grace   for that Jesus did  die for us , so we try and do as well as Gods Spirit is working within us to change 
  we are a work in progress  , there is more to come I am sure  when we  fly away  from the dirty  little cocoon we are in   now ...

   puter is acting buggy today ??  sorry  lol..

[rosered]

   Hi Tony ,
  Without beating around the bush , I will have to say , that Gods grace is sufficent  for this mans   salvation  and needs ,, :dunno:
  Gods saving grace is every mans hope I should think ?

[WhiteWings]

  did you ever note that the old Adam when the Lord put him in that deep sleep / forming Eve out of his rib , was not awakened   at  all  , to me Not till the Lord comes ?

I never noticed that.
Obviously Adam was awake when he ate the fruit Eve gave to him.
If he was just spiritually asleep (=dead?) then God put him into that state even before Eve was created.

This doesn't clarify anything for me. It only adds to confusion :sigh:

[rosered]

  did you ever note that the old Adam when the Lord put him in that deep sleep / forming Eve out of his rib , was not awakened   at  all  , to me Not till the Lord comes ?

I never noticed that.
Obviously Adam was awake when he ate the fruit Eve gave to him.
If he was just spiritually asleep (=dead?) then God put him into that state even before Eve was created.

This doesn't clarify anything for me. It only adds to confusion :sigh:

well ,  Tony  , I just  looked   at deep sleep and only Adam and Abram

  were placed in that state of darkness /ignorance of the Lord and that is when fear come on Abram 
Adam was in an  unconscious   state  , that to me is mortal/carnal mans thinking to the  ways of God only the spirit is given that right /knowledge

I know Paul always states  be   Awake   His voice is like sounding a alarm to me spiritually speaking
for me   deep sleep  can meam many things 

  it is tardemah 8639 Hebrew  1) deep sleep, trance
   Peter had a trance , they are the times of  dreams and visions  as well ....

  Jobs lesson
For God speaks  once, yea twice, [yet man] perceives it not.

Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
Then he opens  the ears of men, and seals their instruction,That he may withdraw man [from his] purpose, and hide pride from man.He keeps

back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.


  there   are places in His Word that can mean differnt things , no doubt
To the deep sleep   I do belive it is hard on the mortal man and yet good for  the spiritual man  , to me it just simply means God is dealing with us   :thumbsup:

  I did  not mean to confuse you bro......... :mblush:

[Nathan]

I see it as a picture of Christ, God put Christ to sleep so he could reach into his side also, and out him flowed blood and water . . .the birthing of a church . . .or better yet, the bride.

Adam is to love his wife as Christ loved the church.  Eve was in Adam when he was made and he was not complete until she manifested from within to without.  Chirst came to this earth, with-child who was within, and willingly died so she could be made manifest without.  And now, "He" is within that which was made manifest without . . .meaning . .he's in us.  And it's our opportunity to let him birth life out of us into others . . . makes ya kinda dizzy if you think about it too much!

[Sarah]

Now he understands he sinned and still sins; what are his steps to take?
Continue sinning (=bad) and trusting Jesus (=good) washed away all sins?
Or lessen/stop sinning (=good) and thereby trying to improve the works (=bad) of Jesus?

He should 1. Trust God is for him and not against him. 2.Purify himself by the washing of the water of the word; both written and spoken.

Trying to stop sinning is not evil. The word says to resist and to flee.

Works are following the ten commandments. Following the ten commandments do not give you life. But when you follow the true Law of Love that is the summation of the 10 written in your heart. Works are not bad, they are bad when it is what you think is going to give you life.

[WhiteWings]

Thanks for all the replies.

Unfortunately they don't help me.
Must be some mindblock.
I'll try again in a few months :happy3:

[martincisneros]

The person now tries to lessen his cursing. Lets say he's able to tune down the frequency down to 10 times swearing a day.
That sounds good. He swears less so he sins less.
But isn't less swearing 'works'
So that person is adding his works on top of the works Jesus has done.
That means that person doesn't fully trust the works of Jesus and tries to improve the works by adding some himself
But the alternative is keep swearing and that isn't good either.

Am I the only one seeing a paradox here?

The fact that we're saved by grace through faith doesn't mean that we won't be judged for our works.  And it depends on the source of the strength from which this person is resisting yeilding to profanity.  If he's doing it trying to please God with his effort instead of with his faith, then it's amiss -- although he's still to be commended for trimming off the profanity.  But if it's his growing gratitude to God for all that Jesus has done for him that has the love in his heart for God boiling at every profane thing that could ever come out of his mouth, or if it's the realization that profanity leads to death, then on neither account is he trying to merit something with God.  When it's from growing gratitude, then that very gratitude will replace the profanity if he doesn't become discouraged in seeing no good thing in his flesh.  If he's avoiding it more and more because he wants to avoid death, then he's avoiding it for the same reason you avoid taking a nap in the middle of the street after you've stretched out your sheets and pillows on the street.  If it's to avoid death that he's not cussing as much any more and believing that with God's continuing grace, mercy, and peace in his life that he'll eventually have the profanity totally cast out, then it's like a million other things that all of us do every single day to avoid death, like avoiding drinking bleach, avoiding falling asleep with our sharpest and largest knives in the bed, etc.

In other words, there's more than one reason why anyone does anything.  For some people, it's performanced based religion, while for others it's opened eyes that are trying to avoid death or that from a growing love towards God don't want any part of that filth in their lives any more.  Some ministers don't accept offerings for what they're doing because offerings would humble them too much and they want a measure of growing pride in what they're doing [as St. Paul did and repented of later], while others haven't accepted offerings because they haven't been there to be accepted.  Some people don't drive their cars at 200mph through their cities because they don't want to go to jail.  Others don't want to make a mistake on a turn and to become baked beans all over the street.  Others don't want to harm anyone.  While others realize that there's value in safer driving practices and they not only want a long life, but long continued enjoyment out of their car.  Some don't do it out of honor towards God because when they signed for their driver's license, they swore an oath to the state that they'd drive safely, so with that consciousness it becomes a matter of the value of their word and of how they represent themselves and their faith to the community.  There's a million reasons why people do things and even if they don't always choose the higher road on why they're doing something, the very thing that they're doing or not doing has value in itself while they're still learning.  If someone didn't go out and butcher the neighborhood, Halloween movie style, then whether it was out of respect for God and His Word or not wanting to go to jail -- still, the neighborhood didn't get butchered!

Good works are important for their own sakes, whether or not someone has their philosophy, theology, relationship with God and others, or anything else totally figured out.

[Nathan]

Before you leave the thread, let me share this with you.

God is not sin-conscious.  God, to me, is blood conscious.  If you openly acknowledge and accept the blood that was given to remove your sin, that's all that he sees.  What you're contemplating, is coming from your level of vision.  What God calls us to, is to see things from his level of vision.  Whenever there is a communication with God in Scripture, there is an "ascension" in one form or another.  

Many of the patterns of Scripture illuminate the fact that when you focus on your own opinions and perspectives, you are dwelling on the "earth".  But when you choose to ignore the natural, physical aspects of your own nature, and concentrait on the character of Christ, your mind leaves the things of the world and enters into the realm of the Spirit.

If I was a smoker before I got saved, and I continue to smoke after I'm saved . . .that crutch is not affecting my salvation one bit.  Grace has come to you and Grace will keep you.  Your mind is not capable of obtaining this kind of reality.  And that's because it's not a moral or ethical salvation happening, it's a spiritual one.  The spirit governs, it has the authority over all other aspects of your nature.  Your mind creates a false authority because it is only concerned with self . .selfconsciousness focusses on natural acts.  It's source is of the first Adam. . .when he fell, your soul inherited the fallen condition and observing life from a fallen state is natural for us.  But it's not the truth of us.

The truth is, the Last Adam has come and raised us up, we've been resurrected to live in an ascended state of Truth.  We're not to live according to current state.  We're to live according to "completed" state.  Your flesh is still going to miss the mark (definition of sin).  But this isn't about your flesh, it's about your spirit, and your spirit has the seed of life within it.  The DNA of God is in you and even though your flesh fails, your spirit is sustained by the life of God in your DNA.  It is now impossible for your spirit to be of a sinful nature.  "That" is the good news we're to be spreading.  With Christ, you can't sin anymore.

You think I'm making that up?

1 John 3
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.  7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.  8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.  9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.  10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.  11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

If Christ is in you now, then let him transform your mind so that it is no longer sin-conscious.  If God doesn't see the sin in you, why then would we want to identify with it?

[WhiteWings]

The fact that we're saved by grace through faith doesn't mean that we won't be judged for our works.  And it depends on the source of the strength from which this person is resisting yeilding to profanity.  If he's doing it trying to please God with his effort instead of with his faith, then it's amiss -- although he's still to be commended for trimming off the profanity. 

That makes much more sense to me. Faith and works are seperated and 'judged'  seperately.
Right?

If he's avoiding it more and more because he wants to avoid death, then he's avoiding it for the same reason you avoid taking a nap in the middle of the street after you've stretched out your sheets and pillows on the street.  If it's to avoid death that he's not cussing as much any more and believing that with God's continuing grace, mercy, and peace in his life that he'll eventually have the profanity totally cast out

But how do one knows (especially a ET follower) s/he is tuning down on sins because of trust/love or just out of fear of the fire?
I'm not the swearing person in this example. I used to swear alot. Suddenly that 100% stopped. I still use a lot of strong language. Even when not angry.
I'm lets say 10% ET believer but still I'm not sure if tuning down my sins is about love/trust/believe or fear.
And even if I now assume I 100% trust UR the answer is still not clear because also UR teaches "hell"

Good works are important for their own sakes, whether or not someone has their philosophy, theology, relationship with God and others, or anything else totally figured out.

Well, I just don't see the wrongs of some sins listed in the Bible. And then avoiding them is not high on the schedule either.

[WhiteWings]

God is not sin-conscious.  God, to me, is blood conscious.  If you openly acknowledge and accept the blood that was given to remove your sin, that's all that he sees.  What you're contemplating, is coming from your level of vision.  What God calls us to, is to see things from his level of vision.  Whenever there is a communication with God in Scripture, there is an "ascension" in one form or another.  

If their is one sin that has little hold on me it must be hypocrisy.
For me it's like accepting money to do biological farming but secretly spent it on gentech crop development.
Same for sin.
Me: God..!?
God: Wazzup?
Me: Take away my sins.
God: Ok. No problem. Done. Anything else?
Me: Yes. I think Jesus was a cool dude. Can I skip punishement now.
God: It's a sunny day. I'm in a good mood. I grant your wish.
Me: Thanks! See you later. wait wait
God: Hu?
Me: Can you email a list of sins please.
God: Sure. Always good to see people reading my words.
Me: Well actually it is because I still want to work myself through that list one more time...

That's a bit how it all feels to me. That's my personal paradox.