If one suffers we all suffer

[valueallhumanlife2008]

Does anyone feel this way?

It's quite a difficult thing to try to describe this and that makes things so frustrating.  It's like if suffering exists for some we could not be happy.  If suffering exists for one person do we not suffer with them?  I read article after article of people trying to say that eternal hell is real and that its biblical and that we should believe in it.  These people do not understand.  Of course they don't understand that it's NOT BIBLICAL but they also don't understand that if what they're saying is true it destroys all hope for all people.  It's like if one person goes to hell forever I would know they're suffering torment and therefore I in turn would be in torment.  If you have just any feelings for the lost and believed they're fate is eternal torture then how could you possibly go from day to day.  Why not go insane?  Why not lie in bed constantly barely able to function?  It's what should happen if that person TRULY believes in eternal conscious punishment.  But no, they go throughout their day, talk about their new car they just got, go out to dinner and laugh and tell stories.  The truth is, the doctrine of eternal hell makes people selfish because the only way to cope with it is to think "it's not going to happen to me so why worry".  You have to forget about the fact that when you come face to face with a lost soul, you could've been them.  Does anyone else here believe that it is now impossible for them to believe in the false doctrine of eternal punishment?

Thankfully, the Bible speaks of universal salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

I'm sorry if I may have been venting with this post.  Truth is I thought about posting it on the prayer boards but decided against that.  Still I could use your prayers as today i've been really sad and frustrated because of what is being taught in the majority of churches.  That is the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell.  I hate that doctrine.

[jabcat]

It is discouraging sometimes...and sometimes lonely.  But that's just an invitation to walk even more closely in friendship and fellowship with our Master.  Grace to you, James.

[Gabe Grinstead]

I'm sorry if I may have been venting with this post.  Truth is I thought about posting it on the prayer boards but decided against that.  Still I could use your prayers as today i've been really sad and frustrated because of what is being taught in the majority of churches.  That is the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell.  I hate that doctrine.

Hang in there buddy! I feel the same way! But, I just let it go and remember that I was once the person I am avidly against now.  Strange how that works...

[Wint O Green]

I think I would want to draw close to the Lord. He is the Savior of all, if He is with us, I believe nothing can happen to us! He is our strong tower on which we stand! If God is with us Who can be against us? Nothing. God says in His word...Fear not for I have redeemed thee. :bgdance:

[valueallhumanlife2008]

Perhaps I need to take my own advice because it came to me in a revelation about a week ago that there's much joy in serving the Lord.  Of course I've known this but it also will help us to overcome the pain we experience.  God gave me a reminder of that fact.  There's lots to do, and many ways we can help a hurting world.  We can let our light shine as we do the work of the Lord, so that one day God will be all in all.

[Wint O Green]

I want to share a scriptures with you...Romans 8:38-39

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We all know Jesus is Love...He Loves us with an undying Love! I agree, serve the Lord with all your heart, and He will bless you beyond measure!

[valueallhumanlife2008]

Thanks Sweets

[Wint O Green]

Your Welcome Sweets. There is Hope of Salvation for all. Jesus... :HeartThrob:

[HappyBoy!]

I've not believed ET for about a year now.  I'm still in my ET believing church and find myself heavy hearted most Sundays.

Recently one of my good friends filled in for Pastor during an evening service.  During his sermon he brought up that he believed if we had sons or daughters that went to hell God would wipe that from our memory.  Why did this used to make sense to me?  It is absolutely no comfort to think of any of my kids suffering while I'm in ignorant bliss.  I was so angry on the way home.  How terrible.

If it were myself alone I'd leave, but my wife is not there yet.

Anyway, I'm there with you.  What a terrible doctrine.

[WhiteWings]

Surely God can wipe your memory.
If it is just that one friend you knew it means nothing of the balance of the billions in humanity.
We all know billions upon billions are missing in the ET heaven. So even our knowledge of how many people ever existed should be wiped. Lots of our great inventors, leaders, kings, etc won't get into heaven. Wars never took place.
Other pieces of history that don't fit anymore. Just think about it. You never sinned because most sins are linked to people that have never existed.
If all on the BBQ are wiped from memory it requires a complete rewrting of memory/history.

On top of that; God will declare many/most things in the Bible lies. Lies that are wiped from memory.
You know exodus never took place because the evil oppressors never existed (wiped from memory)
Jesus never was on earth and he certainly never died on the cross. The ones who did all the bad things to Him are wiped from memory.  etc etc etc
What is falsified history called? A lie. Are Father/Son/HS liars???

Think about it for  moment. The implications of memory wiping are very widespread and even nullify most acts/words of Father/Son/HS

[albertx46]

I have the same way as you feel, and I guess we all know how it feels to be called a heretic.

But I further conclude that in those conservative Christians' hearts God's mercy and wonder has successfully trivialized all the misconceptions taught and held by tradition. How Powerful lol

That's yet another proof that the Holy Spirit enlivens us, not any misinterpreted ideas.

[WhiteWings]

and I guess we all know how it feels to be called a heretic.

Not me. Before this I was an atheist. Still not fully converted.
The other 400 members have a huge scriptual headstart on me. Without my software it would take me a week to locate a verse  :laughing7:
My advantage is that learning UR is easier than converting from ET to UR
And ofcourse the sad stories I read on this forum of people that are completly wrecked by ET fears.

[valueallhumanlife2008]

I will fellowship with any Christian that will fellowship with me regardless of what they believe is the fate of the unbeliever.  However, for my own wellbeing I must distance myself from churches or organizations that teach eternal torment.  It's too much of a toll on my walk with God.  Also there are many in those churches that have little tolerance for Christian Universalism, and I have no desire to attend a church where others see me as a heretic.  Not all of them are like that but a significant amount are.  It's very hard for me right now and the closest church that teaches UR is over an hour away.  I know the Lord will guide me.

[jabcat]

I will fellowship with any Christian that will fellowship with me regardless of what they believe is the fate of the unbeliever.  However, for my own wellbeing I must distance myself from churches or organizations that teach eternal torment.  It's too much of a toll on my walk with God.  Also there are many in those churches that have little tolerance for Christian Universalism, and I have no desire to attend a church where others see me as a heretic.  Not all of them are like that but a significant amount are.  It's very hard for me right now and the closest church that teaches UR is over an hour away.  I know the Lord will guide me.

:yes: :goodpost:

[meerkat]

Good post,

All of these are exactly what I have been through/going through.

I grew up in a pentecostal church and at 14 couldn't handle the smug assurance of a "christians" salvation and everyone one elses damnation and eternal torment, however I had other issues added and basically all got supressed and not thought out or dealt with (after lots of depression and 30 years) .........I have learnt that what is past is past, I too still have a problem sitting in church and hearing things that don't make sense, when you try to say anything you are made to feel as if you are bringing false doctrine into the church. At present I don't go to a church, and I have learnt that a lot of people don't want to hear about universal salvation and that pagan influence is at the very base of christianity (even though it does say the deceivers had entered into the church in the 1st century and would make disciples and lead them astray) somehow they only look for the false doctrine from without.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi HB! :hithere:

One of the things you stated caught my eye...  :mshock:

I've not believed ET for about a year now.  I'm still in my ET believing church and find myself heavy hearted most Sundays.

Recently one of my good friends filled in for Pastor during an evening service.  During his sermon he brought up that he believed if we had sons or daughters that went to hell God would wipe that from our memory.

WHAT????  :omg:

Isn't this just portraying God, HIDING a very distasteful action of His from His loved ones? 

What makes a being HIDE something, is SHAME... (see Genesis 1:10 -- the "fig leaf incident"!)

GOD is NEVER in need of HIDING ANYTHING...  For ALL His actions are GOOD, of LOVE... and PERFECT!   :bgdance:

NO... God shall not wipe ANY of this experience other than the shame, pain and sorrow associated with it... otherwise... WHY did He put us through it?  :dontknow:

If GOD were to wipe out this experience from anyone, then He is found deleting the very reason it happened... that GOOD can be SEEN for what it IS by it's comparison to EVIL!

That ALL PAIN, and SUFFERING and SORROW shall be deleted from rememberance, does not require the experience to be deleted.

I just had CANCER surgery... and believe me... I cannot and do NOT wish to recall the PAIN... but the experience of its REMOVAL from me GLORIFIES... the HEALTH I now enjoy... praise GOD!

peacE...
willieH    :angel5:

[HappyBoy!]

Those are good points Willie.  I also saw WhiteWings comments about wiping memory.  It doesn't make sense and ,as WhiteWings said, would require a rewrite of history.  Imagine in heaven if we could ask one of the Apostles ,"So what was Judas like in person?"  They'd say, "Judas who?".  That would be awkward wouldn't it?  So, I suppose we would have to forget about him too as to avoid the mind bender that it would bring.  Mind boggling, really.  We'd have no memory of most of the Bible.  Maybe in one of my bolder moments I'll ask him his thoughts on this.

I suppose, though, that he prefers this to some of the other theories I've heard.  One is that we will become so like God that we will rejoice and glory in their suffering.  I think this was Poole's commentary I read this from - I'd have to check.  Anyway, I expect they get this from the literal interpretation of Lazarus and the Rich Man along with Rev 14:9-11 where folks are tormented in the presence of the Lamb.

When I ask my pastor about things like this he says, "I don't understand it, but I trust God knows what is best". 

I guess if I think it is awful I'm not trusting God.  :dunno:

[HappyBoy!]

Good post,

All of these are exactly what I have been through/going through.

I grew up in a pentecostal church and at 14 couldn't handle the smug assurance of a "christians" salvation and everyone one elses damnation and eternal torment, however I had other issues added and basically all got supressed and not thought out or dealt with (after lots of depression and 30 years) .........I have learnt that what is past is past, I too still have a problem sitting in church and hearing things that don't make sense, when you try to say anything you are made to feel as if you are bringing false doctrine into the church. At present I don't go to a church, and I have learnt that a lot of people don't want to hear about universal salvation and that pagan influence is at the very base of christianity (even though it does say the deceivers had entered into the church in the 1st century and would make disciples and lead them astray) somehow they only look for the false doctrine from without.

Yep, growing up in the Nazarene Church I used to think how lucky I was to be born and raised in a family that went to a real Bible believing church instead of one of those awful Catholics or liberal Lutherans my pastor preached about.  And those Baptists thought they had a license to sin. Like you, I never could figure out a few things, though.

When I left the Nazarene church they warned me about the dangers of believing in Eternal Security.  They were concerned that I'd be drawn away and enticed.  When I began attending the Baptist church one of the elders there told me he thought the doctrine of being able to lose one's salvation is one of the worst doctrines.  Seeing both of those perspectives first hand really taught me how to step back away from it a bit and try to see the bigger picture.

The Nazarenes and Baptists that I know are sure the Catholics aren't saved because they trust in works.  I expect the Catholics think the Protestants aren't saved because they don't do the works (like being baptized in the one true church).  The Nazarenes are suspicious of the Baptists because of that dangerous Eternal Security doctrine.  The Baptists are skeptical of the Nazarenes trusting in their own strength.

My point is that it's easy for a person to presume them selves right and everyone else wrong.  Also, we are afraid to be wrong (and even to question) due to the dire consequences we've been taught.  It's a bit funny, but really sad, when you step back away from it and have a look.  There are sincere people in the Nazarene, Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, etc... churches all thinking the others are wrong and probably damned.

What's really ironic is that I expect a bunch of them would probably assume someone believing UR is damned.

What a mess.

[WhiteWings]

When I ask my pastor about things like this he says, "I don't understand it, but I trust God knows what is best". 

Surely noone knows everything; but in this case it looks like an easy way out.
Start teaching like you are 100% sure; when people ask question you can't answer then just answer "God knows best."
I wonder how many questions, and then I mean real questions, an average pastor gets that he can't answer.
I wonder if they start doubting themselfs. Or pick up a new study or something. Afterall it's a proffesion and if your clients get you cornered with questions in your own proffesion then you should start to doubt if you are the prof. you think you are...
Or just think about how someone from another church would have answered.

I don't understand. But Gods know  :cloud9:

[DeeDee]

It's quite a difficult thing to try to describe this and that makes things so frustrating.  It's like if suffering exists for some we could not be happy.  If suffering exists for one person do we not suffer with them?  I read article after article of people trying to say that eternal hell is real and that its biblical and that we should believe in it.  These people do not understand.

No hun they DON'T understand. You are 100% correct. They will try and justify themselves and throw our concerns out by saying that God will make us forget those in Hell or that we will become so much like God that we will rejoice at seeing justice prevail with the lost in hell. No one can say for sure they are saved. NO ONE. The way ET churches teach it is like this, repent, be reborn then don't sin again. So according to traditional Christian belief (at least ET Christian beliefs - which is not the original Christian belief) if you do something wrong today like swear after banging your head on a table and you die from the results (of ur head banging) 20 minutes later and you did not repent of the swear word before you died, you are going to hell. Not just for a while but FOREVER! No wonder the people who follow these beliefs would also try and make a person believe you are going to look down at your parents in Hell and think yay, justice!

[Paul Hazelwood]

They will try and justify themselves and throw our concerns out by saying that God will make us forget those in Hell

I've heard this, I also have heard these same people say God does not force anything upon us.

God the God of LOVE will force our emotions out and how we feel about those in hell,  but the wise God of Love didn't think about forcing the evil out instead.

It must be see the irony day.   :laughing7:

[DeeDee]

 :laughing7:  :laughing7:  :laughing7:

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well spoken ol' chap!!!!

Such a GOOD answer.

[CHB]

I also have heard these same people say God does not force anything upon us.

Hi Paul,

I heard this recently spoken of by a Baptist preacher. He also said "we send ourselves to hell". Out of the same mouth comes "we can do nothing to save ourselves".   :dunno: Duh, can't they hear themselves. How is it possible to send yourself to hell if you can do nothing to save yourself?

I am sorry folks if I seem to be ignoring anyone if they reply to any of my post, I am lucky to be able to post today. I may not be able to get back on for a few days. Sometimes I can get on the forum and sometimes I cannot. This is so frustrating but I don't know what to do. I have tried everything. I keep getting "Page cannot be displayed". It might be a day or two before I can get on again and sometimes I can get back on for a day or two then wham!! it is off again.

CHB

[Doc]

Good post,

All of these are exactly what I have been through/going through.

I grew up in a pentecostal church and at 14 couldn't handle the smug assurance of a "christians" salvation and everyone one elses damnation and eternal torment, however I had other issues added and basically all got supressed and not thought out or dealt with (after lots of depression and 30 years) .........I have learnt that what is past is past, I too still have a problem sitting in church and hearing things that don't make sense, when you try to say anything you are made to feel as if you are bringing false doctrine into the church. At present I don't go to a church, and I have learnt that a lot of people don't want to hear about universal salvation and that pagan influence is at the very base of christianity (even though it does say the deceivers had entered into the church in the 1st century and would make disciples and lead them astray) somehow they only look for the false doctrine from without.

Yep, growing up in the Nazarene Church I used to think how lucky I was to be born and raised in a family that went to a real Bible believing church instead of one of those awful Catholics or liberal Lutherans my pastor preached about.  And those Baptists thought they had a license to sin. Like you, I never could figure out a few things, though.

When I left the Nazarene church they warned me about the dangers of believing in Eternal Security.  They were concerned that I'd be drawn away and enticed.  When I began attending the Baptist church one of the elders there told me he thought the doctrine of being able to lose one's salvation is one of the worst doctrines.  Seeing both of those perspectives first hand really taught me how to step back away from it a bit and try to see the bigger picture.

The Nazarenes and Baptists that I know are sure the Catholics aren't saved because they trust in works.  I expect the Catholics think the Protestants aren't saved because they don't do the works (like being baptized in the one true church).  The Nazarenes are suspicious of the Baptists because of that dangerous Eternal Security doctrine.  The Baptists are skeptical of the Nazarenes trusting in their own strength.

My point is that it's easy for a person to presume them selves right and everyone else wrong.  Also, we are afraid to be wrong (and even to question) due to the dire consequences we've been taught.  It's a bit funny, but really sad, when you step back away from it and have a look.  There are sincere people in the Nazarene, Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, etc... churches all thinking the others are wrong and probably damned.

What's really ironic is that I expect a bunch of them would probably assume someone believing UR is damned.

What a mess.

I totally hear you. I'm part of a Baptist congregation that is really more Mennonite than anyone realizes. The pastor does a great job on teaching (and demonstrating) God's love, but then turns right around and condemns UR as heresy. It's almost amusing, because he's preached some sermons that were very universalistic in thrust without even realizing it. When he found out I was exploring UR and had begun to share it with others, he did a four week sermon series against it (without talking to me first, btw). These were the absolute worst, off point, misleading straw-man sermons I'd ever heard from him and I've been attending that church since 1991. He clearly didn't read (or understand) the book I had given him and was preaching with an "I've already made my mind up" attitude. It's amazing how the wisdom of men can turn the most loving, sincere and otherwise Spirit-led people into raving lunatics.

You know, I honestly think if UR were the predominant doctrine in our churches, that there would be fewer denominations and factions and more unity. Perhaps one day. Then again, I could just be overly optimistic about human nature....

[SQ]

I cannot attend a church that teaches ET, some can overlook this, My mind is too vulnerable to put myself through this.
It is so easy to get caught up in the drama and lies.
I just read L Ray Smith letter to pastor John Hagee, almost everything Hagee says in the letter Ray used was a lie yet Hagee is on TV still preaching the same.. even after it was brought to his attention he was adding too scriptures.
Maybe Hagee is still blind to the truth but to believe ET makes God look vindicative and cruel.
I would rather be an atheist than believe the ET lies.