Answering Matt Slick's article against Universalism

[WhiteWings]

those who are elected to salvation will be saved and only those who wanted to be saved are elected to be saved. Likewise, it is not possible for the elect to lose their salvation since the cross has made it secure.

So once you are elected you can live in sin? Sounds exactly what you accuse UR of...

we do not know the criteria by which God elects, but elect He does. The Bible teaches that plainly.

I understand that Matt. What I don't understand is why you above wrote down a condition to be saved/elected. Namely 'wanting to be saved'. Which of course requires a strong Christian background/teaching.

It is not, however, based in anything good in us for there is nothing good in us; we are sinners. That is why God shows no partiality; that is, He does not elect based on anything in us.[/quote]

According to Matt UR is an invitation to sin. And what about his own quote?
Everyone is a sinner and God does the election. So we have no influence. Is that also an invitation to sin Matt?
Matt are you a Christian or are you just scared?
To be honest your attitude 'scares' me. I heard that kind of reasoning before. From rapists for example. If a woman doesn't wear 3 overcoats she is asking to be raped. That kind of reasoning. In the country where I live there is no death sentence for not stopping at red light. Is that an invitation for traffic violations?
People who only act good because out of fear aren't good. They are scared sinners. To put it otherwise they are bot sinning because they are scared.
But the whole message of the Bible is not to sin because you love to be good and/or hate sin.
There is a structural difference!

[Paul Hazelwood]

Is it contradictory to say that God elects and that our prayers can influence Him? Not at all, since both are true in scripture. Furthermore, I absolutely believe that God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Acts 4:28) and I believe my prayers and efforts (i.e., CARM) make a difference. In fact, I am far more evangelical than most people: I've literally got thousands of hours in evangelism experience, preaching, teaching, witnessing, apologetics, web, radio, etc, and I have many testimonials how the efforts have made a difference in peoples' lives. This all goes to prove one very important point: God ordains the means as well as the end.
It isn't up to me to figure out all the nuances of God's mind and how all of it fits together.
I leave that to Him and I go forth in obedience to His declaration (predestination/election) and His command (make disciples).

Lest any man should boast..........


Testamonials,   Every one has their testamony and typically,  testamonies of all walks and fashions seems to give evidence to one main course in life.....   God works all things.

Yes , Matt,  I am thankful for your site and I am thankful for various ministries around the world, I am glad for various people in my life, most of which I now have a theological difference with now.  However, each of those things is a step in our walk, not the proof of a point of view.

But what I do know is that Gods Love only proceeeds in one direction and that is action for our benefit.  See,  Loved  is a VERB,  For God so LOVED.   What possible thing could prevent the action of Love to accomplish the goal for all mankind?

Absolutely nothing.

[pneuma]

A possible explanation
Alright, so I've pleaded ignorance, in part, on this subject. Nevertheless, I offer a possible explanation of how this can work.
God's total knowledge eternally encompasses all actions of all beings and all possible and actual permutations of all events of all things.
This means that from before the universe existed, in the mind of God, all potential existences and all potential combinations of all events were already known and understood by God; hence, true omniscience.
This would include all things done by "free will" creatures anytime and anyplace in the then distant future under all actual and potential circumstances.
Since all things have eternally been simultaneously known by God (even the "free will" choices made by all people), then, when He planned the universe, it is necessarily true that all things which were known and consulted by God were included in His plan of election as He placed people in and where He did according to His sovereign will to "do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28).
It cannot be that God remains ignorant on any subject. When He created the universe He did so knowing everything that could and would be. Since He is all powerful, it is natural to state that He included all possible outcomes in His sovereign plan, including election. This election may or may not be influenced by foreknowledge concerning our actions and desires.
This plan can easily include our prayers and the resulting ramifications of the teaching of false doctrines that damn people.
Our prayers can, then, have an influence with Him from all eternity, yet, He has not changed from all eternity. The only way that this can be is if He knew everything about everything and included what He desired in the universe that He constructed and set in motion.
It is perfectly logical, therefore, that in our time reference, we can make choices, influence God, be warned about apostasy and false doctrines, and actually truly make a difference in people's lives (for good or bad), and have all these things sovereignly included in the plan of God by which He elects and predestines. This way, the idea of a false doctrine damning and God's election are not mutually exclusive.
In other words, God knew all that what we would do (good and bad) and took it all into account when He constructed the universe and put us in it and developed His sovereign plan by which He has predestined what will occur. After all it says that ". . .He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will," (Eph. 4:5). Is this predestination apart from His infinite knowledge of our influence upon Him (James 5:16) from all eternity? Of course not.
Therefore, what we do makes a difference in the lives of people. False doctrines are still dangerous and are to be warned against -- the outcome, of which, are included in God's sovereign plan of election. He still predestines, we still can influence God in our prayers (James 5:16) and God's warning about apostasy and false doctrines are still valid.


Although I agree with much of what Matt says here, it really only applies to Universalism if as the scriptures state God is LOVE and because of that LOVE He sent Jesus into the world.

Otherwise we have God knowing before He created man that most would be roasted in the lake of fire. This is akin to us having 10 children knowing before hand that 9 out of the 10 of them was going to be tormented for all eternity. This is a horrible view of Gods love for the world.

We have God knowing Jesus sacrifice was not going to save all mankind, thus God sending Jesus on an impossible task because God sent Jesus for the salvation of the world. Thus as God sent Jesus for the salvation of the world and Jesus does not save the world Jesus missed the mark of that which He was sent to do, and we all know that to miss the mark is sin.
Thus this view make Jesus not only a failure to accomplish God will, but also makes Jesus a sinner because He did not do the will of the Father.

This view give absolutely no hope for the world which Jesus came to save.

It boggles the mind that people of God believe DEATH is equal to God who is LIFE for according to the mainstream churches DEATH is as eternal as God Himself is. That DEATH is victorious over the RESURRECTION even when scripture tells us DEATH is swallowed up in VICTORY.
That God is going to live side by side with DEATH and SIN for all eternity.
That people are going to LIVE for all ETERNITY in the lake of fire without Christ, for do they not proclaim ETERNAL LIFE in TORMENT, and yet scriptures tell us the ETERNAL LIFE is only found in Christ.

Yet it is these beliefs the mainstream churches cling to even in the face of God's LOVE for the world.

They might as well just preach God so LOVED the world that He sent His son to ETERNALY TORMENT 90% of mankind. For if Jesus was not sent then 90% of mankind would not have rejected Him, thus God knowing before hand that in sending His son into the world was going to be the means whereby He would eternally torment man.

What a horrible horrible view of God.

[pneuma]

Objections answered
But, some universalists will object that the doctrine of election can cause the very same thing of which universalism is accused; namely, a false sense of security in salvation. Certainly, this is a possibility. But, the Bible says that God elects (Matt. 24:22,31), that His sheep will never perish (John 10:28), that those who say they know Jesus and do not keep His word are liars without the truth (1 John 2:4), and that the Christian is a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17): "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." It is this last verse that is extremely relevant here.
Being a new creature in Christ means that the Christian is no longer a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16). He is now free. A true Christian will not use the grace of God to sin (Rom. 6:1-3) and expect to be saved no matter what. Why? Because a true Christian is at war with the flesh (Rom. 7) and does not remain in sin (John 8:31; James 2:14).
But, the very fact that the universalists bring up this counter-argument is an admission of the weakness of their own for they recognize it and try to apply it to a different situation as a means of defense. In so doing, they do not answer the original problem; they only change the subject and hope the problem will go away.

Hardly, I answered your question Matt, and the reason the universalist ask you the same question as you ask of them is in order to show you by your own proof of scripture the foolishness of your question. The problem with you is you want a double standard, one for your belief and something different for the Univesalist belief.


Also, election deals with Christians, universalism deals with Christians and unbelievers.

All men were unbelievers before they became believers Matt, therefore election is from unbelief to belief. And all shall BELIEVE for every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.



The Christian is regenerated and changed and will not abide in sin; he cannot because he is not a slave to it anymore and will not use his security in Christ as a license to sin. The unbeliever is not saved and can still hope in eternal life after death so they can sin now. And it is to this charge that the universalist has failed to adequately respond.


Hogwash, time and again I have shown how ALL mankind will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and confession is made unto SALVATION.


Another objection raised by universalists is how do you know if you are elect or not? This question demonstrates a lack of understanding of biblical theology. The Bible says that "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13). It is certainly possible, according to God's word, to know that you are elect. On a practical level, I would say that anyone who has trusted Jesus as Savior (not a false Christ as in the cults), will have the knowledge and testimony of the Holy Spirit living within him and he will observe a change in his own heart. This is a demonstration of regeneration. Furthermore, only Christians have the mind of Christ and know that Jesus is God in flesh, risen from the dead, and ascended into heaven to which the Bible says, an unbeliever cannot accept (1 Cor. 2:14).

Eek gad, Matt is saying the Universalist does not know that they have eternal life and that we do not have the knowledge and testimony of the Holy Spirit living within us.

Well whose testimony is of the Holy Spirit that always gives glory to the Father.

This one

God sent Jesus into the world to save the world and will not fail in that which He proposed to do.

Or this one

God sent Jesus into the world to save the world but will only save some.

The reader will have to make up their own mind.

[pneuma]

Satan and universalism
Satan wants the destruction of all people. Satan wants people to die in their sins and go to hell. He is utter hatred and complete evil. But, he is also extremely cunning with an intelligence that is vast and it may just be that universalism will become a tool of the Devil in the last days.  How? By teaching that people can trust in Christ in the after-life, a second chance after death.

Now, am I calling Universalists satanists? Not at all. Many of them are very godly people and serve the true God. But, whether Universalists admit it or not, the doctrine has the potential of negating the need to come to Christ in this life because it teaches you can do it in the next -- as they have claimed.

Funny how someone would think the message of the restitution of all things is a tool of the Devil. What Matt would have the reader believe is that the Devil runs around telling everyone what a good and wonderful Father God is, Does that sound like the Devil you know?


Only those who have just come into the knowledge of the restitution of all things think of it in terms of a second chance. Most of us who have believed in the restitution of all things for awhile understand that although there is a second chance scenario that will indeed play out for some, most have died never having heard the Gospel message in the first place, and how can they when the mainstream churches stand up in their pulpits and declare God is going to eternally torment people. The Gospel is the message of hope, not of no hope, the Gospel is the glad news, not the bad news, the Gospel is victory in Christ and it is not until the mainstream churches understand this will the true Gospel be preached.

If one has to hear the Gospel/good news of VICTORY in Christ after ones death it is because the preachers of today don't give Christ the VICTORY, they place before man time and again DEATH TRIUMPHANT, and yet Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto me. The preachers of today don't lift Jesus up, but tear down everything He came to accomplish via the cross. 


In Universalism, as well as most any doctrine, Satan can work various false teachings through its adherents. No doctrine is immune to being twisted. But, many Universalists deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ yet draw people in via universalist philosophy. This is dangerous. All the cults teach a false god and are false because of it. But in universalist theology, it really doesn't matter. Why? Because according to universalism, in the after-life, people will come to a true knowledge of God and repent and be saved. So, even if they are wrong now, they will be right later. So, the need to preach and teach the true God (Trinitarian) is greatly reduced. Again, this is dangerous.



No doctrine of any kind saves or condemns people, and the trinity is a doctrine and been a issue of the church since the days of Constantine. What Matt want the reader to believe is that because some might not believe doctrine after the same fashion he does that they are serving a false Christ. What Matt is doing is making a division between the people of God, in much the same manor that some proclaimed their baptism of Paul, some of Peter, some of Apollo's and some of Jesus Christ, to which Paul proclaims IS CHRIST DIVIDED.

As to Matt's point that the Universalist deny the Deity of Christ, it is an unfounded claim, no one I have spoken to denies Christ Deity. What Matt is doing here is saying if one does not believe in the trinity aspect then the only other conclusion is that they don't believe in the Deity of Christ.

This is a FALSE representation, for as the Father is Deity all that are born of Him are of the same Deity. 


Satan says, "Don't worry about receiving Jesus now. You can do that later." Then when people die, they find out it is too late. But, it is God who says,
"At the acceptable time I listened to you, And on the day of salvation I helped you" ;behold, now is "the acceptable time," behold, now is "the day of salvation" (2 Cor. 6:2, NASB) - emphasis added.
"He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts" (Heb. 4:7, NASB) - emphasis added.
Some Universalists will take offense at this line of reasoning. I don't blame them. But, the Bible teaches that now is the time for salvation, not later.


I already explained what TODAY means a few post back, but as Matt likes to repeat himself I will repeat myself again also.

What right does man have to set the limit of TODAY to this age only?

Just by the two scriptures Matt quoted above we can see TODAY spans at least two ages, for the day of salvation or TODAY is mentioned by David who was under the age of law, and again mentioned by Paul who was in the age of grace.

Thus TODAY is not limited to one age, but rather is given in future ages as well.

The meaning of the day of salvation or TODAY is this: when God draws you to Him and opens your eyes and gives you a hearing ear is your TODAY or the day of your salvation.

Until this happens your TODAY or day of your salvation has not yet come upon you.

We all know that millions of people died without hearing the voice of the Son of God concerning the day of their salvation, but we also know by scripture that the dead shall hear His voice and those that hear shall live. Why? Because those outside the gate, when they keep His commandments still have the right to the tree of life. Rev.22:14-15


Some Universalists actually preach a God of love and forgiveness and the need to come to Christ now. That's fine as far as they preach the True Christ and Him crucified and not a false god as the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and New Age adherants do. But what about the thousands of Universalists who deny the true God and yet teach universalism and continue to teach a false god? If Universalism is not true, then they are hindering people from coming to Christ. They are advocating a false god along with their universalist teachings, the very universalist teaching that appeals to people because it teaches a God of infinite love and grace.


Here Matt goes off again on wanting to determine who is serving God and who isn't as if that is his call. Many people from all denominations love God and serve Him through Jesus Christ, and if they have an error in understanding God it is because of those who would teach when they have need of being taught.

For someone to stand up like Matt and say


To deny the Trinity is to deny the true God.


Is pure hogwash.

God is more then any man made doctrine, and NOTHING in scripture backs Matt's claim up.


To deny that Jesus is God in flesh is to deny the true Christ.


Matt seems to be twisting the scriptures, John says

1 John 4:2-3
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Matt says "To deny that Jesus is God in flesh is to deny the true Christ."
John says "confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:"

Do you see the twist?


This is incredibly dangerous because false gods do not save, only the True and Living God saves! But then, in universalism, it doesn't matter what you believe now. You'll "repent" later in the after-life and come to the true knowledge of God. Sorry. But that is not what the Bible teaches.

You mean that is not what the Bible teaches to YOU.

Only those who look at the LETTER see DEATH

Those who see beyond the LETTER into the SPIRIT see LIFE.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Dear reader please think and pray on that.

[WhiteWings]

"At the acceptable time I listened to you, And on the day of salvation I helped you" ;behold, now is "the acceptable time," behold, now is "the day of salvation" (2 Cor. 6:2, NASB) - emphasis added.
"He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts" (Heb. 4:7, NASB) - emphasis added.
Some Universalists will take offense at this line of reasoning. I don't blame them. But, the Bible teaches that now is the time for salvation, not later.


I already explained what TODAY means a few post back, but as Matt likes to repeat himself I will repeat myself again also.

What right does man have to set the limit of TODAY to this age only?

Just by the two scriptures Matt quoted above we can see TODAY spans at least two ages, for the day of salvation or TODAY is mentioned by David who was under the age of law, and again mentioned by Paul who was in the age of grace.

Thus TODAY is not limited to one age, but rather is given in future ages as well.

Maybe "today" should be understood in a even simpler way.
IMO it just means that every day, hour, minute, second is the right time to accept Jesus.
For some today was 2000 years ago. For some today now. For others today is tommorow. Etc
Every day you live in is today. That includes the days after your death when you get that 'second chance'
A second chance that isn't a second change but your 'daily chance'

[WhiteWings]

Just wanted to say you are doing a great job pneuma :thumbsup:

Is it only me that sees a small turn in Matt's replies.
Earlier on it where frontal attackson heretics, decievers, etc.
Now he even says UR people are true believers but misled. (same idea but much milder)
He no longe claims UR is 100% certain hersey but more often uses "what if you are wrong"

[pneuma]

Just wanted to say you are doing a great job pneuma :thumbsup:

Is it only me that sees a small turn in Matt's replies.
Earlier on it where frontal attackson heretics, decievers, etc.
Now he even says UR people are true believers but misled. (same idea but much milder)
He no longe claims UR is 100% certain hersey but more often uses "what if you are wrong"

Thanks WW, and yes I seen the small turn you mention, but whether it's for effect (see I am being reasonable with the UR crowd) or whether Matts really had a change of heart only he and God know.

But if he had a change of heart I would think UR would be unband on Carm.

[Tony N]

2Co 6:2 For He is saying, "In a season acceptable I reply to you, And in a day of salvation I help you.Lo! Now is a most acceptable era! Lo! Now is a day of salvation!"

As far as "Now is *the* day of salvation" the definite article "the" is missing in the Greek. It just says "Now day of saving"

In the Concordant Version it is:
Lo! Now is a most acceptable era! Lo! Now is a day of salvation. Where the bold represent Greek words and light face words are just added to make the text understandable.

[pneuma]

One world government
The Bible teaches us that in the last days there will be a one world religious system which will be used by the devil in a great deception to ultimately war against God. Universalism could easily be used by the devil to help him accomplish this very thing. You see, there are a great many differences between religious systems. They cannot all be right. Because of these differences, hostilities often arise. But, if universalism were accepted by all religious systems, then it would logically greatly reduce hostilities both physical, intellectual, and spiritual. Sound good? It sure does. Except for one thing. It compromises the truth of the saving gospel of Jesus Christ who said He alone was the way the truth and the life.

Matt is mixing an matching here and as he really does know better it can only be for subterfuge. Matt is well aware that there is a difference between universalism and Christian universalism, universalism believe that all people will be saved with or without Christ, Christian universalism stand firmly on the groundwork of Jesus and fully believe He is the way, truth and life so there is no compromise with the truth as Matt would have the reader believe.


This means that all other systems are wrong! It means that Buddhism is not true. It means that Islam is not true. It means that only Christianity is true. There is no fellowship with darkness.

These type of tactics Matt is employing here should tell the reader how far from the truth eternal torment is, if one needs to deceive in order to promote their belief what can be said of their belief?

So I'll repeat, the Christian universalist believe that JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY WHEREBY ALL MEN SHALL BE SAVED.


Christians need to stand on God's word of truth which includes the narrow path to God of which not all will find it (Matt. 7:13-14), not man's word of "God will save everyone."
Universalist philosophy, if accepted by the worlds' religions, would greatly reduce the focus of differences between them. It would greatly reduce the need for orthodoxy, for defining and preaching the true God.

I almost choked on my tea when I read the part I highlighted in brown.
Matt is saying that eternal torment is that which defines the true God, for if you believe anything other then the orthodoxy view you are not seeing or defining the true God.
Yet Jer.32:35 tells us that sacrificing children to fire never came into the mind of God.



But, the Bible teaches that Jesus alone is the savior and that now is the acceptable time of salvation... not the after-life. It teaches that there is one God, not many; that Jesus is God in flesh, not an angel or a "good man." Truth is at stake.

And you Matt have yet to show the reader where the universalist has fallen from the truth.
Truth is at stake Matt, but your view is found under the OLD covenant and those under the OLD covenant could NOT stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished,  because of the vail on Moses face and on the reading of the OLD Testament, which vail is done away with in Christ. 2Co.3:12-15

It is this area of the OLD and NEW Testaments that we can learn a great truth, which is those who believe in eternal torment view scripture through the vail, whereas those who believe in the salvation of all in Christ the vail is done away and we see Him more clearly.

Example: those who believe in eternal torment view the NEW testament through the lens of the OLD, whereas those who believe in universal salvation view the OLD testament through the lens of the NEW.

Dear reader please think on this prayerfully, keeping in mind that it is only in the OLD testament that God is shown as being unmerciful, an eye for an eye God, but all through the NEW testament God is shown as LOVE, the one who would save ALL mankind.

How many people will be deceived by universalism's comfortable message that all will be saved? Who knows. Universalism in itself is not a deception, just an error. But, how many will take refuge in its comforting doctrine and not come to a saving truth of Jesus? I can not say, but even one is too many.
I cannot help but notice that the secular world teaches tolerance, be-nice philosophy, and the belief that all will make it to heaven. Second chance redemption and a theology that teaches you'll make it no matter what is comfortable to the world's ears. Too bad the universalists agree with the world in this.

Matt misses a very important lesson here.
The worldly people heard Jesus readily, it was the churches of His day that rejected Him, and this same scenario is played out time and again for as the Universalist preaches Jesus Christ crucified for the salvation of the whole world, the churches rises up against the truth and crucify Him anew.   

[Paul Hazelwood]

Matt misses a very important lesson here.
The worldly people heard Jesus readily, it was the churches of His day that rejected Him, and this same scenario is played out time and again for as the Universalist preaches Jesus Christ crucified for the salvation of the whole world, the churches rises up against the truth and crucify Him anew.   

This a very good point that is not readily taught in any church I have been in.   It was not the world that Christians are supposed to reach that crucified Christ.

"Personally"  not saying ALL,  but all the the atheists I have encountered including the one personal atheist friend I have do not object to the universalist message.   They might not believe it, but their hearts are open to the possibility of the message.

I have always found that very interesting.

[WhiteWings]

One world government
The Bible teaches us that in the last days there will be a one world religious system which will be used by the devil in a great deception to ultimately war against God.

And what is that religion called? My guess it's politics and money.
Greed is a common factor that can be found in every race and religion. That's far easier than converting everyone to one religion. The only goal is that people turn away from God.

Universalism could easily be used by the devil to help him accomplish this very thing. You see, there are a great many differences between religious systems. They cannot all be right. Because of these differences, hostilities often arise. But, if universalism were accepted by all religious systems, then it would logically greatly reduce hostilities both physical, intellectual, and spiritual. Sound good? It sure does. Except for one thing. It compromises the truth of the saving gospel of Jesus Christ who said He alone was the way the truth and the life.

Nice try Matt. Now try:
But, if universalism/atheism/Protestantism/Calvinism/Satanism/Moslimism/...ism were accepted by all religious systems.
I do agree with you that only one religious system can be right. Even more I think none of them is right/perfect.

2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
"workman" is the keyword in this verse. It means that God also accepts the efforts of people with an IQ below 210.
That means God won't get angry at honest mistakes because brain limitations. If He's sees you really seek Him and His Son He will be happy. For me that means He is pleased with all forms of Christianity.
And please Matt be a honest man/Christian and admit pnuema very often stated he loved Father, Son and their teachings.
So claiming UR people would rebel against God is just a outright lie!
Personally I'm convinced your wrong in your religion. But I'm also convinced you would never bow for satanism.
Matt because you love this board and read all Scotts posts I leave his quote in this reply  :laughing7:
So I'll repeat, the Christian universalist believe that JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY WHEREBY ALL MEN SHALL BE SAVED.

Christians need to stand on God's word of truth which includes the narrow path to God of which not all will find it (Matt. 7:13-14), not man's word of "God will save everyone."

Just in case you don't know Matt. 7:13-14 doens't mean Matt Slick 7:13-14 with his holier that you are attitude!

Universalist philosophy, if accepted by the worlds' religions, would greatly reduce the focus of differences between them. It would greatly reduce the need for orthodoxy, for defining and preaching the true God.

What is the true God Matt?
a] The UR God that wants to loved like a Father and want to be surrounded by all His children and succeeds.
b] Your failing God that wants the same, but ends up with only 5% of His children and BBQing the remaining 95%

But, the Bible teaches that Jesus alone is the savior and that now is the acceptable time of salvation

Matt you just proved you will 100% sure got to hell!
The word now in the Bible was spoken/written down long before you where born.
So I'm afraid your to late buddy. You where born 2000 years to late. :laughing7:

How many people will be deceived by universalism's comfortable message that all will be saved? Who knows. Universalism in itself is not a deception, just an error. But, how many will take refuge in its comforting doctrine and not come to a saving truth of Jesus? I can not say, but even one is too many.

If their is just one deciever on this planet it is you! You claim one lost soul is one to many. Surely you believe your religion is the right one. You have every right to have that feeling. No problem with me. But then remove all sections from your forum that are not your religion. Or are you implying that Satanism and Atheism doesn't loose any souls?

Sorry for spamming your thread Scott  :thanks:

[pneuma]

Sorry for spamming your thread Scott

it's ok bro, you did bring something out that I did miss though, Matt says if one soul is lost its one to many, to bad he does not apply that to Gods victory in Christ.

[WhiteWings]

It would greatly reduce the need for orthodoxy, for defining and preaching the true God

I don't understand that quote.
How can something reduce the need for orthodoxy?
Does the according to you only true word change if other there are no other religions?
Would you remove half of the commandments? Is their suddenly no more need to teach your vision of hell?
I don't know if you are really aware of it Matt; but you just insulted the Bible and/or the One that inspired it.
You said the truth depends on manmade factors!  :thumbdown:

[pneuma]

A Challenge to Universalists
The Bible says to "test yourselves to see if you are in the faith" (2 Cor. 13:5). This is something that we must do. We must not carelessly assume that we know all that is true in the Bible. If universalism is true, fine. But if it is not, then the eternal consequence of damnation is of utter importance. Therefore, I issue this challenge to any who claim to be Universalists. Are you a Christian?
Of course, some of you will claim that you are and it is not my place to judge you.

You already judged just by asking this stupid shameless question.
Are you going to now tell us what we have to believe in order to be a Christian?


God is the Judge and He has revealed what His will is in the Bible about what false doctrines disqualify someone from being a Chrsitian. Therefore, it is from God's word that I challenge you. This challenge is not about the truth or error of universalism. It is about who Jesus is. Do you believe He is God, the creator of the universe, worthy of all worship and honor, equal to the person of the Father? If yes, good. If not, then you desperately need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith because to deny this means you are not a Christian.

Hogwash no scripture tells us we have to believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same being.

Matt's taking a man made doctrine and trying to prove that unless one believes in it one is not a Christian.

Jesus always made a distinction between Himself and the Father, between Himself and the Holy Spirit, and as He made this distinction Himself how can it be proved to show who is and who is not a Christian?

According to Matt because Jesus made the same distinction I do concerning Him and the Father both Jesus and I are not Christians.

Lets look at a few scriptures were Jesus makes this distinction.

John 14:28
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me,  ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.     

Here Jesus makes the distinction that the Father is greater then Himself. So how can Jesus be the Father?

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 

Here Jesus makes the distinction between God and Himself saying MY GOD. So if Jesus says Himself that He has a Father and a God who am I to argue with Him

John 14:16-26
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Speaking of the Holy Ghost Jesus makes the distinction between them when He said ANOTHER Comforter would come and abide with us.

So much for Matt's proof of who is or is not a Christian, according to Matt proof Jesus Himself failed the test, go figure.



Jesus said, "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins," (John 8:24, NASB). The word "He" is not in the Greek. It literally says, "for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins."

Jesus is speaking here of were He came from I AM not of this world, I AM from above and unless you believe that I AM from above and not of this world ye shall die in your sins.

Later in this same chapter in verse 58, Jesus said, "before Abraham was, I AM." He was alluding to Exodus 3:14, where God told Moses that His name was "I am that I am."

Jesus was not alluding to Ex.3:14 which concerns the name of God given to Moses not Abraham. Jesus was simply stating that He existed before Abraham, which if you follow the story is what the Jews were making a fuss about, your not 50 years old yet so how could you have seen Abraham, and Jesus responding before Abraham was I am.


Likewise, in 1 John 4:2-3 it says, "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."

Yes and every Christian Universalist will acknowledge Jesus Christ came in the flesh.


Very few people deny that Jesus lived; that is, that Jesus came in flesh. When John wrote this, he was not saying that you must believe that Jesus lived, but that Jesus was God in flesh. The time of the writing of First John is important. The Gnostic heresy was prominent. It taught that God was too pure to have anything to do with sinful flesh. Therefore, Gnosticism taught that Jesus could not be God in flesh. It was in this context and against this error that John was writing. Jesus is God in flesh and to deny it is the Spirit of Antichrist.

Matt's adding his own understanding to the scriptures here, nothing in 1Jn.4:2-3 states that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, it simply states JESUS CHRIST HAS COME IN THE FLESH.

Matt speaks of Gnostic belief at this time, but what he did not point out was that some of these sects like Docetism promoted the belief that Christ was pure spirit and only had a phantom body; Jesus just appeared to be human to his followers.

This sect clearly shows that some at this time denied that Jesus Christ actually lived or came in the flesh.

Thus clearly showing John speaking in opposition to this sects belief's.






Furthermore, the above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. In 1 John 4, the apostle knew what he was writing when he spoke of Jesus being in the flesh.

Yes John knew what he was writing about Matt , but that does not mean you understand what John was talking about.

Yes the Word was God and yes the Word came in the flesh, no one denies God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. This is not up for debate any Christian will agree that God was in Christ reconciling the world, the debate comes in where some (most) people take those scriptures and say it mean God was/is Christ.

Nothing in those scriptures say God was/is Christ, but God was manifest in the flesh for God was/is the life of the son.

If we are going to take those scriptures to mean that God was/is Christ then what do we do with these ones

2 Corinthians 4:10-11
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

If we use the same principal here as Matt does to determine God is Jesus Christ because God was manifested in Jesus life, then when Jesus life is manifested in our mortal flesh would mean we are Jesus Christ, which would mean that if God is Jesus Christ and we are Jesus Christ the conclusion come then that we are God the Father.

What utter nonsense, yet this is the conclusion one comes to if one follows the reasoning of the church doctrine of the trinity.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in the Father , Son and Holy Spirit, and that all 3 works together in and for man, but will maintain as Jesus Himself did a distinction between Himself and the Father and between Himself and the Holy Ghost.

So as the reader can now see Matt's challenge is not a challenge of whether one is a Christian or not Matt's challenge is one of the doctrine of the Trinity and unless you believe that doctrine Matt say you are not a Christian.

So the bottom line is, if you disagree with Matt's understanding of the scriptures according to Matt you are not a Christian. Thus Matt takes the judgment of who and who is not a Christian out of Gods hands where even he says it belongs and judge you according to his belief.




The Bible states that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 44:8).

Yes it does, and Jesus states I go to MY GOD and YOUR GOD, so if Jesus has a God as He says He does and you make Jesus your God you are not worshipping the ONE TRUE GOD.

It states that Jesus created all that exists: "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17And He is before all thins, and in Him all things hold together," (Col. 1:16-17). Jesus is the creator.
In Isaiah 44:24, it says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone." This verse shows us that the Lord God created the universe - alone. If God created the universe alone and if Jesus created all things, then Jesus is God.


Well that would be a good argument if Is.44:24 really said what Matt thinks it says.

The Septuagint has it

24 Thus saith the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the heaven alone, and established the earth.

You will note that the word MYSELF is found nowhere in this scripture, now some might argue and say true but the word MYSELF is used in other translations.

This is true but even in these other translations the word MYSELF has no definition applied to it as if the word is not there, which would make the case for the Septuagint being the more accurate translation. Case in point Strong's has no corresponding number associated with the word myself given in verse 24.

Add to this that when God created the heaven and the earth the word for God in creation is Elohiym which is used in the plural sense, thus God did not create the heaven and the earth alone.

But some will argue but what do we do with where it says that God stretched out the heavens alone?

Nothing, for nothing need be done with it, the scripture is not saying God stretched out the heaven by himself, it is saying that God stretched out the heaven by itself, in other word God divided the heaven. Which is exactly what we read in Gen.1


Alone
H905
בּד
bad
BDB Definition:
1) alone, by itself, besides, a part, separation, being alone
1a) separation, alone, by itself
1a1) only (adverb)
1a2) apart from, besides (preposition)
1b) part
1c) parts (eg limbs, shoots), bars
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H909
Same Word by TWOT Number: 201a

Jesus is fully and completely God in flesh, second person of the Trinity. Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."


No one denies the fullness of the Godhead dwells in the body of Christ

And again, in John 5:22-23, Jesus said, "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."


Matt quotes this scripture and does not even realise the distinction Jesus put forth within it. Jesus says the Father judges no one, well if Jesus is the Father as Matt believes then the Father judges everyone, which would make Jesus a liar for saying the Father judges no one.


Why is all this so important? Because it is Jesus who reveals the Father (Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22), who sends the Holy Spirit of truth (John 15:26), and who opens the mind to understand scripture (Luke 24:45).
If you do not have the true Jesus, you will not know the true God. You will not know the true Holy Spirit. You will not have your mind opened to understand God's word. If you do not have the true Christ, then you simply are not a Christian.
So I challenge you, do you believe Jesus is God in flesh, worthy of the same honor has Father, the creator of all, the risen Lord? If you cannot say yes, then I suggest to you that you are not a Christian and need to re-examine your beliefs, regardless of whether or not universalism is true.
Furthermore, if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh and just if universalism is false, then you would be in deep trouble come judgment day.


Again no one argues the point that it is Jesus that reveals the Father, who sends the Holy Spirit and opens the mind to understand scripture. Every Christian will agree on these points. Matt makes a big show here but has proved absolutely nothing, no doctrine of any kind make you a Christian, you know what does? LOVE, Jesus said if you love one another then the world would know you are my disciples. I'll take Jesus word on who is his followers over any man made doctrine argument. 


Don't put your hope in universalism. Put it in Jesus who is God in flesh.


Matt it is because we put our hope in the Father and the Son that we believe in universal salvation, for we simply believe in a God who cannot and will not fail to do that which  He proposed to do when He sent Jesus into the world. And that purpose was for the worlds salvation.

[WhiteWings]

A Challenge to Universalists
The Bible says to "test yourselves to see if you are in the faith" (2 Cor. 13:5). This is something that we must do.

Matt, that is not a challenge to Universalists but to whole mankind.
You should also ask yourself the same valid question.

God is the Judge and He has revealed what His will is in the Bible about what false doctrines disqualify someone from being a Chrsitian. Therefore, it is from God's word that I challenge you. This challenge is not about the truth or error of universalism. It is about who Jesus is. Do you believe He is God, the creator of the universe, worthy of all worship and honor, equal to the person of the Father? If yes, good. If not, then you desperately need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith because to deny this means you are not a Christian.

Again you have to adress your question to a wider public. Not just UR
After millenia of debate Some Christians believe (not) in the trinity. Some believe Son is (not) equal to Father. Etc etc.
Ever read vanity is a sin Matt? An example is someone that assumes he/she the only one with brains on this planet. Hint  :laughing7:
Only Father, Son and HS have the absolute knowledge. Unless you are one of them back off...  :laughing7:


About all that Trinity stuff. I'll keep it short to avoid poluting this thread.
If there was only one thing from the Bible I believe is that God won't (eternaly) condemn you for making a honest mistake in misunderstanding the concept of Trinity.
2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Scott,
I think Matt is bald by now from all that hairpulling when answering your posts
:wink:

[pneuma]

A Challenge to Universalists
The Bible says to "test yourselves to see if you are in the faith" (2 Cor. 13:5). This is something that we must do.

Matt, that is not a challenge to Universalists but to whole mankind.
You should also ask yourself the same valid question.

God is the Judge and He has revealed what His will is in the Bible about what false doctrines disqualify someone from being a Chrsitian. Therefore, it is from God's word that I challenge you. This challenge is not about the truth or error of universalism. It is about who Jesus is. Do you believe He is God, the creator of the universe, worthy of all worship and honor, equal to the person of the Father? If yes, good. If not, then you desperately need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith because to deny this means you are not a Christian.

Again you have to adress your question to a wider public. Not just UR
After millenia of debate Some Christians believe (not) in the trinity. Some believe Son is (not) equal to Father. Etc etc.
Ever read vanity is a sin Matt? An example is someone that assumes he/she the only one with brains on this planet. Hint  :laughing7:
Only Father, Son and HS have the absolute knowledge. Unless you are one of them back off...  :laughing7:


About all that Trinity stuff. I'll keep it short to avoid poluting this thread.
If there was only one thing from the Bible I believe is that God won't (eternaly) condemn you for making a honest mistake in misunderstanding that the concept of Trinity is wrong or right.
2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Scott,
I think Matt is bald by know from all that hairpulling when answering your posts
:wink:

I agree brother, there is a mystery to the Godhead and I don't beleive God is angry or discounts them as christian who do not comprehend this mystery.

[Tony N]

Mr. Slick wrote:
It is about who Jesus is. Do you believe He is God, the creator of the universe, worthy of all worship and honor, equal to the person of the Father? If yes, good. If not, then you desperately need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith because to deny this means you are not a Christian.

My reply would be this:

Dear Mr. Slick,
Would you ostracize Jesus from being a Christian when He stated from His own mouth:

Joh 20:17 which is the term for "Teacher.Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

In escence, dear Mr. Slick, Jesus is saying, "I am not your God and I am not your Father. I am going to where My God is and where My Father is. I am going to where your God is too. Your God is not standing here in front of you. He is up there (pointing up into the sky) while I am down here.

Tony

[pneuma]

What should you call Christians
who believe in hell fire?
Unfortunately, some Universalists like to label Christians who believe in eternal hell with words like "hellers", "tormentists", etc. Such terms are derogatory and inaccurate.

Matt makes it look like Universalists are the only ones who have used derogatory and inaccurate terms. How about letting the readers know about some of the names Universalist have been called such as sons of satan, blasphemers and the most common heretics. We can all point fingers at one another but it really does not prove anything except to show how immature we as His body still are.  


I for one, do not like the idea of hell. I do not want there to be a hell. I do not want people to go to hell. It would be great if God did redeem all people, or at least annihilate those who reject Jesus. But I do not believe that is what the Bible teaches.
For any Universalist to imply that we Christians somehow enjoy the idea of people going to hell, or that we want hell to exist, or want people to go there is ludicrous and inflammatory not to mention a blatant misrepresentation of what we believe.

Couple of things here.
First Matt says Universalist imply WE CHRISTIANS, a clear cut showing MATT does not believe those who believe in Universal salvation are Christians.

Second although Matt says that Universalist are misrepresenting "we Christians" that is not the case. Although many who believe in eternal torment do not like the idea of everlasting torment in hell, there are some who relish the idea, believing that the torment of others will show them how much God loved them (those not in the torment) thus incensing their joy in God.

A few examples:

Peter Lombard says---"Therefore the elect shall go forth...to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious ."

Andrew Welwood says---"overjoyed in beholding the vengeance of God ," and their beholding of the smoke of the torment of the wicked as "a passing delectation."


Samuel Hopkins says---"This display of the divine character will be most entertaining to all who love God, will give them the highest and most ineffable pleasure. Should the fire of this eternal punishment cease, it would in a great measure obscure the light of heaven, and put an end to a great part of the happiness and glory of the blessed."

Jonathan Edwards says---"The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven."
The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.

These should be enough to show the reader that there are some who believe in eternal torment that believe they will find others torments great joy. So as the reader can see the Univesalists who points these things out is not misrepresenting what some who believe in eternal torment believe.

The only thing that should be pointed out and made clear is that not all those who believe in eternal torment believe according to those quotes,  most of those who believe in eternal torment would fined those quotes quite disturbing.

But herein then lies a big problem with the belief in eternal torment.
Most who believe in eternal torment are repulsed by the thought of people finding delight in the torment of others, Matt even seems to be repulsed by it.

But here is the problem, we are to delight in the things God delights in and God delights in the judgment.

Jeremiah 9:24-25
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. 25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; 

So if God finds delight in eternal torment should not all His children find the same delight? Not many reading would dare to say they would find delight in God eternally tormenting their own loved ones.

So how does one reconcile doing good to those who hate us and the delight God finds in judgment?

The answer is really simple if one can just see ALL Gods judgments are corrective in nature. Thus when He judges the sinner it is for their good and that is why scripture tells us God finds delight in His judgment on both the circumcised and uncircumcised.

God will mend and restore us in the fire of His judgment.


We are not "hellers" or "tormentists." We are Christians who believe in the Holy, Infinite, Justice of God and that from that Holy, Infinite, Justice of God, the Lord will pour forth His wrath upon those who are not covered by the blood of Jesus the Christ.

Yes and as I just pointed out God delights in His judgment. So you are left with a choice Matt, either you better start to delight in the judgment of God even thou it repulses you or you are not walking in the delights of the Lord.

We believe in God's Holiness -- that He can have nothing to do with sin.


Yet you believe God will abide with sin for all eternity. Don't forget Matt that the torment is in the presents of Christ, thus making Christ forever abide in the presence of sin.


We believe in God's Infinitude -- that sin against Him is infinitely offensive.

Yet Paul who was the chief of sinners was forgiven for sinning against the infinite God.


We believe in God's Justice -- that He must punish sinners.

You mean He must punish those who sin who do not know Him, but those who do don't have to reap what they sow. We all reap what we sow Matt, whether we be sinner or saint.


We believe in God's Love -- that He has provide an escape from that punishment which is only found in Jesus.


Finally something we agree on.


So, if you are a Universalist, please refrain from using derogatory terms that inaccurately reflect what we believe and feel.


I agree Matt, just because a few of those who believe in eternal torment find delight in it does not mean all those who believe in eternal torment do, it simply not fair to lump everyone together like that.

But it's a two way street Matt, you don't like it when people do that to you, therefore you should be extra careful not to do it to others who hold a different belief.   

[WhiteWings]

Most who believe in eternal torment are repulsed by the thought of people finding delight in the torment of others, Matt even seems to be repulsed by it.

But here is the problem, we are to delight in the things God delights in and God delights in the judgment.

:thumbsup: :laughing7:

We believe in God's Love -- that He has provide an escape from that punishment which is only found in Jesus

.
I think that we include UR people because they believe in an equal/greater love of God than you do.

[pneuma]

What is Unitarianism?
Unitarianism is the belief that God exists in one person, not three. It is a denial of the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the full divinity of Jesus. Therefore, it is not Christian. There are several groups that fall under this umbrella: Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphianism, The Way International, etc. Another term for this type of belief is called monarchianism.
In the context of universalism, the Unitarianism discussed here is that belief that denies the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, eternal punishment, and the vicarious atonement of Jesus. Unitarian universalists use many biblical concepts and terms but with non-biblical meanings. Unitarianism is not Christian.
There is a group known as the Unitarian Universalists Association. This denomination which was formed in 1961 in the United States when the American Unitarian Association and the Universalist Church of America merged. Its membership is around 175,000.
The General Convention of the Unitarian Universalists formulated the five principles of the Universalist Faith in 1899.
The Universal Fatherhood of God
The spiritual authority and leadership of His Son Jesus Christ
The trustworthiness of the Bible as containing a revelation from God
The certainty of just retribution for sin
The final harmony of all souls with God
Additional beliefs generally held by Unitarian Universalists are:
Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works in any way.
Jesus became the Son of God at His baptism.
The Holy Spirit is not a person, does not have a will, etc.
There now is and will be rewards and punishments according to one's actions but this does not consist of the traditional doctrine of hell.
Human reason and experience should be the final authority in determining spiritual truth.
This last point, "Human reason and experience should be the final authority in determining spiritual truth," is perhaps the most revealing of the character of Unitarian Universalists. Instead of God and his word being the final authority on truth and error, or right and wrong, Unitarian Universalists subject God and his word to their understanding, feeling, and reason. This is exemplified in the following quote obtain from the official Unitarian Universalist website at http://uua.org/. This was found under the heading Unitarian Universalists say:
"I want a religion that respects the differences between people and affirms every person as an individual."
"I want a church that values children, that welcomes them on their own terms—a church they are eager to attend on Sunday morning."
"I want a congregation that cherishes freedom and encourages open dialogue on questions of faith, one in which it is okay to change your mind."
"I want a religious community that affirms spiritual exploration and reason as ways of finding truth."
"I want a church that acts locally and thinks globally on the great issues of our time—world peace; women's rights; racial justice; homelessness; gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender rights; and protection of the environment."
Notice that each of the five statements begins with "I want..." This is not the humble attitude of one indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God. It is not the attitude of one who wants to put God first.
It can plainly be seen that this is a religion based upon personal hopes and desires and not upon the the Bible.
I cannot help but think of the five "I will's" listed in Isaiah 14:13-14:
"But you said in your heart,
I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north.
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
Many commentators believe that these five "I wills" were uttered by Satan as he sought to be exalted and equal to God. They reflect the arrogance of the evil one as his heart was filled with pride and put his own will before God's. He had his desires before God's.
But notice what Isaiah says in the next verse:
"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit."
Jesus said, "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks," (Matt. 12:34). We can see that the Unitarian Universalists speak first from their own desires, according to their own wisdom, and not according to the wisdom of God. What does God say about this?
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God," ( 1 Cor. 3:19).


Well as I am not a Unitarian Universalists  I will not try to defend what they believe. Some of the things Matt says they believe I see nothing wrong with, yet on others I agree with Matt they are wrong about some of the other things.
But being wrong about something does not make one unchristian, this is where Matt falls into one of his greatest errors, that being he wants to be the judge of what determines what a Christian is and therefore judge who is and who is not a Christian, but this is not Matt's call, nor is it any mans call, this is Gods call alone and every time man puts his own hands to the ark it brings forth death. This is something Gods children need to understand because every time they drive away another who is serving God and are not of their fold they are killing another child of God. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

Here is another example of where Matt appears to be deceptive once again.   Funny that lately I have been wanting to check out the local unitarian church just our of curiousity and where Matt focuses upon Human reasoning being the final authority, I would like to know what his source is.  Because I do not find that wording anywhere.   This may be an example of Matt intepreting the guidlines for his own purposes.

Of the UU churches websites I have visited to get an idea of consistancy,  I think Matt is misunderstanding what they are saying.   

Appears they simply understand the idea that God gave us a mind to reason with, lets use it.  I have had many conversations with spiritualists and few if any reject the idea of Jesus being the means in which through him all men are reconciled,  but their spiritual path is not ready to just accept that because Paul shows up with his fancy greek and hebrew program and a smile.   :)

We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote:
First UU Principles



The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;

A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;

The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;

Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:

Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;

Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;

Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;

Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;

Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit. Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

Grateful for the religious pluralism which enriches and ennobles our faith, we are inspired to deepen our understanding and expand our vision. As free congregations we enter into this covenant, promising to one another our mutual trust and support.

[albertx46]

very impressive work, pneuma,

this could serve as a classic rebuttal on anyone's attempt to disparage our faith.

thanks a lot.

[pneuma]

very impressive work, pneuma,

this could serve as a classic rebuttal on anyone's attempt to disparage our faith.

thanks a lot.

Your welcome

God bless

[pneuma]

Concluding thoughts on Universalism

Universalism is a false and dangerous doctrine.

So said the Pharisees to Paul concerning grace

It is unbiblical.

Funny how something can be unbiblical and yet I used many scriptures to prove it.


Nevertheless, the teaching that God will forgive all people of all their sins is an appealing teaching. It is comforting to think that no one will go to hell forever-- especially ourselves.

The ourselves here would apply more to Matt's teaching then Universalism, for Matt believes only the elect are saved, that he is one of the elect so he has comfort knowing he is saved and all others are dammed to eternal torment.

It means that we will escape the judgment of damnation.


How many times must one say it before it sinks in, NO ONE ESCAPES THE JUDGMENT, WE ALL REAP WHAT WE SOW.

Does the reader not find it ironic that it is the universalist that stands up for Gods judgment and those who believe in eternal torment believe they will escape the judgment, yet it is those who believe they will escape the judgment that say the universalist belief means that we will escape the judgment. Go figure.


It means we are safe even in our imperfections, our sins, our rebellion, and our blasphemies.

That is a load of hogwash, it is for the express purpose of REMOVING these imperfections, sins, rebellions and blasphemies that man experiences the judgment of God.

It means we can offend God outright, reject Him boldly, and not worry about our salvation -- because we'll all be saved no matter what they do in this life. This is, of course, wrong.

WE ALL REAP WHAT WE SOW MATT

Now here is a story of those who rejected Christ.

Luke 9:51-56
51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up,  he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Reread the scriptures and in them you will find those who REJECTED Christ, the future church (seen in James and John) saying BBQ them (sound familiar) and Jesus saying to the future church YE KNOW NOT WHAT MANNER OF SPIRIT YE ARE OF.

Dear reader take the lesson from Christ and not from the churches of today who do not know what manner they are of.


On the other hand, if there are people going to hell, then it means that there is a God who holds them eternally accountable for their actions.

Only the universalist holds the belief that everyone is held accountable for their actions, every other belief holds to the get out of jail free card.

Let me ask the readers this.

When Jesus was crucified by the wicked hands of men (those who obviously REJECTED Him) and said Father FORGIVE THEM for they KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO. ( sounds kind of like, they know not what manner of spirit they are of don't it) do you believe they were FORGIVEN or are to be eternally tormented?

Remember this as you answer that question, it was given unto the Son to FORGIVE MANS SINS.


It means there is absolute truth concerning condemnation. It means there exists a God who punishes sinners who reject God and separates them from His own infinite holiness.

And the Universalist have absolutely no problem with God punishing sinners, we just KNOW that all Gods judgments are for correction.

Down deep inside this can make us uncomfortable and worried. Such an idea of accountability might force us to examine ourselves and ask, "Am I saved?" "Am I going to heaven?" "Have I offended God?" "Will I be punished?" "What am I really like deep, down inside?" The answers to these questions can make us feel guilty, uncomfortable, and even worried, especially when we compare ourselves to a Holy God.

Again it is only the universalist that believes God will hold all men accountable for their actions, we don't believe in a get out of jail free card. Therefore it is the universalist who will look inwardly to see where they have fallen short of the calling of God.


In this world of "tolerance," diluted absolutes, and creature comforts, the idea that all people will be forgiven fits right in. Universalism is a theology of tolerance, of ease, and comfort. It feels good. Psychologically it can ease our conscience because if we, in the goodness of our hearts, are wishing the forgiveness of all, doesn't it mean that we too will receive forgiveness due us because of our merciful desire towards others? Many people think this way and somehow hope that because of their own good will towards others, they will receive it themselves.

Matt has absolutely know idea what he is talking about here, the greatest preacher the world has ever seen besides Christ Himself was persecuted unmercifully for preaching the unmerited favour of God (GRACE).

Dear reader just what do you think Universalism is? Brothers and sister it is nothing but the preaching of the unmerited favour of God (GRACE) towards ALL MEN.   



It is not comfortable, nor does it make us feel calm and relaxed to think that there is an infinitely Holy God who takes sin seriously and punishes sinners.


Yet it is your belief Matt that diminishes the seriousness of and judgment of sin.
The universalist believes in everyone reaping what they sow, not a get out of jail free card.

It can be terrifying to be faced with an eternity of hell fire if you have not made yourself right with God. And such is the complaint of the universalist: God is love and in Him there is no fear of eternal damnation.

There is no fear of ETERNAL TORMENT in the aspect Matt and the churches speak about today, that being a torment WITHOUT END.

As we have seen repeatedly aionious deals with an AGE.

The universalists are often guilty of pick-and-choose theology. See the papers on Matt. 25:46 and "A look at the word aionion" as examples of how they misuse Greek meanings of words.

Yes please go back and see my rebuttal to Matt's posturing here, and determine for yourself who it is that is guilty of the pick-and-choose theology.

In addition, I have encountered many universalists who have stated that they adopted universalism because they did not like the idea of eternal damnation. In essence, to do this this is to adopt a theology based on feelings and this is wrong.

Tis true some have come to believe in Universal salvation because they did not like the idea of eternal damnation, but if you ask them what they mean by they did not like the idea of eternal damnation, they will tell you they could not reconcile a God of Love with a God who is said to eternally torment man.

So it's not really a case of them choosing based on feeling it more a case of the word being written in their hearts before they seen it written in His word.

God punishes sinners (Matt. 25:46). Why? Because He is Holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8). His eyes are too pure to look upon evil (Hab. 1:13). Is He love? Yes, He is (1 John 4:8, 16). But that isn't all He is. He is also just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6) and must punish sinners because sin is an offense against Him and sin separates us from Him (Isaiah 59:2).

Except according to Matt and the churches of today God will not punish all sinners, as some of you will get the out of jail free card. Matt and the churches of today would do well to take to heart the parable of the two men that went up into the temple to pray, and how the one lifted himself up saying I am not like other men, I do nothing but that which is good, and the other bowed himself down and smote his breast saying God be merciful to me a sinner, and how that it was the sinner that went his way justified. Lu.18:9-14


In His love He sent the Son to die for us. For those who reject Christ, God will be just and punish them.


Matt JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN WITH THE HOUSE OF GOD, for if God house is not first JUDGED of their sins how in the world are they to be of help to those in their sins.

Matt it is YOU who believes that God will not judge all sin, but if God does not judge brother no one can enter within the gates.


Hell was not made for people. It was made for the devil and his angels who rebelled against God (Matt. 25:41). But hell will also house those who reject God's provision for salvation and side with the evil one (Matt. 18:8; 25:46). This is a sad reality.

Again Matt puts these thing forth as though the universalist does not believe in Gods righteous judgment, but by now I think the reader can see quite clearly that we do, we just understand ALL Gods judgments to be for correction

Will Satan too be saved according to the Universalists? No.

Yes, as I have demonstrated time and again. But I must point out that not all universalists believe that Satan will be saved.

Will the evil people who commit the most horrendous of crimes and who have blasphemed the name of God be allowed to escape their judgment even after openly rejection the Lord's sacrifice?

Paul's not in eternal torment Matt, and neither are those who had hand in crucifying Jesus Christ, for unto the son of man is given the forgiveness of sins and those who are forgiven much love much. Father FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.

Does God simply say, "It is okay for you to reject me, my Son, the Sacrifice, the Agony on the cross. It does not matter about your blasphemies against Me. It does not matter that you have given yourself over to evil.

Matt open your eyes brother, it is not the universalist that says God will wink at sin we believe all will reap what they sow, its you that believes God will wink at your sins. Because you have accepted Him into your heart you can sin with impunity because He will just forgive your sins.

I will save you after a period of chastening in the afterlife. Enter into My rest and enjoy eternal bliss. All are saved." No, this is not so.


Yes it is so Matt, as I have proven time and time again with Rev.22 that all without the gate, the thief's and liars and blasphemers still have right to the tree of life by becoming obedient to the commands of the Father.


"How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).


Matt how can one person in eternal torment said to be suffering a severer punishment then another in eternal torment? Wake up brother Gods judgments are for correction, thus one who sins wilfully will reap many stripes, for some will receive many stripes and some few.


The teaching of Universalism minimizes the Infinite Holiness and Infinite Justice of God which also resides within His very essence alongside Infinite Love. It does this by daring to assert that anyone, in the afterlife, through any form of suffering, are somehow "made ready" to be with God. That is false!

Matt how was Jesus made perfect? Was it not by the things which He suffered?
And if we are to be as He is brother we must also share in His suffering.
Are not His judgements on us a token of our inheritance with Him?
Yes, yes and again yes judgment MUST BEGIN with the house of God.

Hell is not a pleasant topic. It is an awful place. But it is real and it is powerful and it is eternal.

Yes it is real and yes it has a power, but no it is not eternal as I have shown time and again


No one will escape the judgment of God if they forsake Christ in this world.

No one will escape the judgment of God PERIOD.

God gave hell its power. The power of sin is the Law (1 Cor. 15:56). To sin is to offend God and to go against His word, His very nature. The Law is God's word. He said, "Thou shalt not...." Jesus said that out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. God spoke the Law into existence out of the very nature of His own heart. Therefore, to go against the Law is to go against God and to offend Him. He is infinite. The offense is infinite.


Matt if offending God was infinite then NO ONE CAN BE SAVED because we have ALL SINNED and fallen short of the glory of God.

So how is it Matt that this infinite sin is not applied to you? How is it you do not have to suffer eternally?

Did you somehow get out of eternal torment, yet all others in there are not allowed out?

I mean if to offend God makes it an infinite sin because He is infinite how in the world did you escape its consequences?

He is just and is obligated to punish sin and, hence, the sinner.


Well I agree with that statement but time and again you let yourself of the hook for your sins by saying Jesus suffered and died for you, so now I don't have to suffer. Somehow you don't believe your own statement applies to you. Go figure, remember to two who went up to the temple to pray Matt and who it was that went away justified.


He is love and graciously provided His Son to redeem those who would be His.

Hogwash He gave His Son to redeem the WORLD just as the scriptures proclaim.
Jesus own words I have not come to judge the world but to SAVE THE WORLD.
Dear reader will you believe Matt's proclamation of who the Son was sent to save or Jesus own testimony?

I'll leave that up to you.


Universalism makes the latter quality of God override the other having the sinner escape eternal judgment by going through a period of suffering in the afterlife. This is wrong. When such an imbalance occurs, error is the result. And that is what universalism is: error. Its danger is that it may cause the heart to be comfortable, to not worry, and to put off seeking a savior. Such a doctrine is dangerous since it can easily encourage a casual approach to redemption.

On the contrary Matt it is what you believe that gives one a casual approach to redemption, the universalist believes we all reap what we sow, therefore people best beware of the sins they do. In your understanding all the elect has to do after they sin is say oops oh well I won't have to suffer for that sin because Jesus suffered for my sins, but that poor bugger over there he's going to suffer for all eternity. Yep we both lusted after the same woman, but I am ok because my lust is covered.

And you call the universalist doctrine dangerous, yikes.


Thus ends my rebuttal to Matt Slick and my time with all here at Tentmaker, may God our Heavenly Father blessings be upon you all.

Much Love in the Lord
Scott