Answering Matt Slick's article against Universalism

[laren]

What does 'his' mean?
His followers? Or just everyone?

Act 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Act 5:31  Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Act 13:17  The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with a high arm brought he them out of it.

Act 13:23  Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Savior, Jesus:

Act 28:20  For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

[laren]

Heb 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Jer 31:1  At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

[laren]

1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:  (that which is first, the natural)

Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Eph 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[pneuma]

What? Matthew 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 

What does 'his' mean?
His followers? Or just everyone?

Well Gods judgment is most definitely real, but the mainstream idea of hell is nowhere found in the scripture. Hell as taught in the mainstream churches is of pagan origins.

Hogwash the fear of God is reverential and not something that is to be afraid of.
Do you the reader serve God because you are afraid of Him or because you are in awe of Him? His awesomeness is the beginning of wisdom and what is more awesome then to know that Jesus Christ is the saviour of the whole world. Oh taste and see that the Lord is GOOD and you have gained the beginning of wisdom in awe of our LORD.

Pneuma I think I don't fully agree with this part. Sorry  :laughing7:
Sure the punishment is not classic hell. It has limited duration. And is more a teaching than a torture process.
But does that mean it's not to be feared?
As a kid I never feared my parents would kill or torture me; but when I pulled some stunt I did feel some fear for punishment. Even if I knew it would just last a short while and it never would be severe. (actually always below the mild level)
To be honest I don't know what to exactly expect from Gods punishment/correting. I don't think it's classic hell. Neither I think it's so little you don't even notice it. Likely no real pain is involved but I think it will be far from a good time.
Just my  :2c:

Hi WW Laren gave you a good answer to His people by scripture.

I am not saying we are not to fear the Lord WW, but the fear Matt is talking about is terror of unimaginable perportions.

We are not to fear God anymore then we would are natural fathers, God only chatises us for a time and it is for our correction.

[pneuma]

Read again Rev.22:14-15 and you will see that those who are outside the gate are those who are under Gods judgment and that if they keep His commandments have the right to the tree of life and may ENTER IN THOUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

One more question if you don't mind.

It's clear to me that those inside the gate are the ones that kept God commandments. Those on the outside didn't.

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 
The word 'do' is that just in this life or also after this life?
I guess/know your answer will be also after this life. But how you know that? From verses scattered througout the Bible; or the context of a few earlier verses?

Strong on the word 'right'
1849 evxousi,a exousia {ex-oo-see'-ah}
Meaning:  1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases 1a) leave or permission

Can someone choose not to take advantage of that right and die?

Read it again WW, if it was talking about those who already have kept His commandments they would have already been INSIDE THE GATE and have ALREADY partaken of the tree of life.

[WhiteWings]

Read again Rev.22:14-15 and you will see that those who are outside the gate are those who are under Gods judgment and that if they keep His commandments have the right to the tree of life and may ENTER IN THOUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

One more question if you don't mind.

It's clear to me that those inside the gate are the ones that kept God commandments. Those on the outside didn't.

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 
The word 'do' is that just in this life or also after this life?
I guess/know your answer will be also after this life. But how you know that? From verses scattered througout the Bible; or the context of a few earlier verses?

Strong on the word 'right'
1849 evxousi,a exousia {ex-oo-see'-ah}
Meaning:  1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases 1a) leave or permission

Can someone choose not to take advantage of that right and die?

Read it again WW, if it was talking about those who already have kept His commandments they would have already been INSIDE THE GATE and have ALREADY partaken of the tree of life.

I did read it several times before posting my question. It's really not clear. IMO it depends at what place Gods 'courtroom' is. Inside or outside the city.
If outside 'the good ones' can go through the gate. The sinners not.
If the courtroom is inside the city the the sinners get kicked out. And then indeed it's clear to me they can after some time return inside the city.

BTW the courtroom is just a figure of speech.



Your answer on punishment is clear to me and as I see it.

[WhiteWings]

Laren,

Thanks for the long answer. As usual I have question  :laughing7:
To me it all sounds like the believers.
"Israel", "circumcision is that of the heart, quickened", "who were dead" etc

What I'm missing, or overlooking, is 'proof' that people that are sinners/unbelievers at death get an extra chance in the after-life.

[laren]

Laren,

Thanks for the long answer. As usual I have question  :laughing7:
To me it all sounds like the believers.
"Israel", "circumcision is that of the heart, quickened", "who were dead" etc

What I'm missing, or overlooking, is 'proof' that people that are sinners/unbelievers at death get an extra chance in the after-life.

well, I approach things from a different perspective.  I personally don't think any of it has to do with the "after life" but the Now. 

For me, "after life" is not the message of the new testament.

 

[FineLinen]

Laren,

What I'm missing, or overlooking, is 'proof' that people that are sinners/unbelievers at death get an extra chance in the after-life.

I am unaware of "chance" being an ingredient of our Father's great plan of reconciliation. :dontknow:

In fact, the same polus "made sinners" are the polus "made righteous".

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=462.0

[WhiteWings]

FineLinen, All,

It looks I'm often misunderstood.
I'm convinced or UR. Including things like 'all', 'full control of God' etc
What my questions are about is the following:
I've read Gary's 150 proofs of UR book.
What I'm now trying to do is find proof 151.
Please do not take this wrong because I really appreciate all the lengthy replies! but when I asked something about what pneuma wrote I'm asking about that specific post.
I just want to know if inside pneuma's/Laren's post (regarding in/out the city) there is proof for UR.
If I want 'outside' proof I just read Gary's book or one of the many useful posts on TM.
Once again I'm not trying to be rude. In fact I'm trying not to be; but because English is not my first language things may sound rude.
An answer like "No there is no direct proof in these verses." would be a good answer to me. Of course I prefer 'proof 151"

[Paul Hazelwood]

What I'm missing, or overlooking, is 'proof' that people that are sinners/unbelievers at death get an extra chance in the after-life.

Sometimes what is not written is the scriptural evidence.   I have never seen the scriptures saying that there ever is a time where it is too late in the context of age bearing translations.   

So what happens is someone wants a verse or something that says "you get a second chance"   when "all give account for their life" is in part the answer  "age bearing chastisement" is another.

In otherwords, it is never about "chances" in the first place.

[pneuma]

Read again Rev.22:14-15 and you will see that those who are outside the gate are those who are under Gods judgment and that if they keep His commandments have the right to the tree of life and may ENTER IN THOUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

One more question if you don't mind.

It's clear to me that those inside the gate are the ones that kept God commandments. Those on the outside didn't.

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 
The word 'do' is that just in this life or also after this life?
I guess/know your answer will be also after this life. But how you know that? From verses scattered througout the Bible; or the context of a few earlier verses?

Strong on the word 'right'
1849 evxousi,a exousia {ex-oo-see'-ah}
Meaning:  1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases 1a) leave or permission

Can someone choose not to take advantage of that right and die?

Read it again WW, if it was talking about those who already have kept His commandments they would have already been INSIDE THE GATE and have ALREADY partaken of the tree of life.

I did read it several times before posting my question. It's really not clear. IMO it depends at what place Gods 'courtroom' is. Inside or outside the city.
If outside 'the good ones' can go through the gate. The sinners not.
If the courtroom is inside the city the the sinners get kicked out. And then indeed it's clear to me they can after some time return inside the city.

BTW the courtroom is just a figure of speech.



Your answer on punishment is clear to me and as I see it.

Hi WW, I may still be misunderstanding your question but will give an answer to what I see in your question and hope I was reading you right.

First the judgment of the great white throne has already passed, everyone has already stood before it and God has given His judgment.

First the judgment then the sentence to be carried out, the judgment is a part of the sentence and the sentence is part of the judgment, for you simply cannot have one without the other.

So then God judged the murders, idolaters etc. and that judgment was that they would not be allowed into the city and must take their part in the lake of fire. This sentence (lake of fire) lasts until those WITHOUT the gate (those in the fire) keep His commandments, once obedient they have right to the tree of life and can enter through the gate into the city.

As to whether this is for the next life or to this life or even to ages past, I believe it has happened, is happening right now and will happen in the future, Why? Because scripture states there is NO NEW thing under the sun, it hath already been of old time which was before us.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

The second death is the ministration of death, which is the LAW, and is our schoolmaster that lead us to Christ. The LAW is that which produces a CROSS in our lives, that CROSS consists of a CHOICE between LIFE and DEATH, LIFE consists in OBEDIENCE to God and DEATH consists in DISOBEDIENCE to God.
Thus all who are disobedient to God's COMMANDMENTS are UNDER the sentence of DEATH (or under the law) until they repent and keep His COMMANDMENTS, once obedient they then have the right to the tree of life and can enter into the city.

Hope that was of some help brother/sister.

God bless

[pneuma]

Laren,

What I'm missing, or overlooking, is 'proof' that people that are sinners/unbelievers at death get an extra chance in the after-life.

I am unaware of "chance" being an ingredient of our Father's great plan of reconciliation. :dontknow:

In fact, the same polus "made sinners" are the polus "made righteous".

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=462.0

HELLO Finelinen so good to see you drop by, I for one missed you around these parts, hope you stay for awhile, always enjoyed your posts.

God bless

[WhiteWings]

First the judgment of the great white throne has already passed, everyone has already stood before it and God has given His judgment.

2 month ago that would have been the only answer I need to understand. At that time I was reading Revelation as something that's in chronological order. But since I'm on TM I'm not so sure about that so...  :sigh:

So then God judged the murders, idolaters etc. and that judgment was that they would not be allowed into the city and must take their part in the lake of fire. This sentence (lake of fire) lasts until those WITHOUT the gate (those in the fire) keep His commandments, once obedient they have right to the tree of life and can enter through the gate into the city.

As to whether this is for the next life or to this life or even to ages past, I believe it has happened, is happening right now and will happen in the future, Why? Because scripture states there is NO NEW thing under the sun, it hath already been of old time which was before us.

Are you saying we all are reincarnated sinners that are outside the gate?
Is it possible we get reincarnated many times before we get it right?

[pneuma]

Are you saying we all are reincarnated sinners that are outside the gate?
Is it possible we get reincarnated many times before we get it right?

Yikes, its funny how we all read things and get the inpression of something totally different then what the person is actually saying.

I don't beleive in reincarnation WW, when I said I believe it has happened, is happening right now and will happen in the future, Why? Because scripture states there is NO NEW thing under the sun, it hath already been of old time which was before us.

I was saying the judgment of the great white throne(which purpose is to reveal Christ) has happened in ages past, men like Adam,Moses, David, Abraham etc. have already experianced this judgment.

This judgment is happening right now as the CHOICE is set before us of obedience or disobedience, and when we obey God we have right to the tree of life, when we disobey God we reap the death of that disobedience.

So then the same thing that happened to those in the past, is happening to us right now, and it is the same thing that will happen in the future, for Rev. is the manifestation of Jesus Christ and everything spoken of in Rev. is for that express purpose.

This understanding is to long to go into in these posts to one another WW so if you would see further what I am saying read my artical on the great white throne on my blog which you can find in my signiture.

God bless

[Tony N]

First the judgment of the great white throne has already passed, everyone has already stood before it and God has given His judgment.

Dear brother, you have a Private Message.

[pneuma]

Hi Tony, I replied, hope you recieved it ok.

[pneuma]

The Danger of Universalism Illustrated
Universalism teaches that all people will eventually be saved and that no one goes to the fiery-hell to suffer for their sins. It means that everyone is saved, whether or not they have accepted or openly rejected Jesus' atonement. Of course, this goes against Heb. 10:26-27 which says,
"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries" (NASB).


Matt is misrepresenting what most Universalists believe here, as I have said time and time again the universalist believe in aeonian fire, for we all reap what we sow.

There is a danger in the Universalist position. It can weaken the need for someone to receive Jesus as Savior. To prove the point I provide this "exaggerated" illustration. But, the contrived universalist sermon below contains many quotes said by universalists to me. I've just blended them in:
There is this horrible, hateful man who abused all sorts of people in countless ways. He stole from them, was foul mouthed, a habitual adulterer, and he openly mocked and blasphemed God. He repeatedly sought to destroy the Christian Church and did everything in his power to prevent the gospel from being preached. He was a wretched and evil man.
This man died and, out of social obligation, all this relatives were at his funeral. There were lots of impressionable children, sweet little old ladies, and many acquaintances from work who had been appalled at the atheists horrible lifestyle yet were there nevertheless. However, some of the people there were thinking of sin, salvation, God, judgment, and what death brings. This often happens at funerals.
A universalist pastor was giving the message.
"We know that this man was a wretched soul who did whatever he could to oppose God and blaspheme Christ. He habitually stole, lied, cheated, coveted, swore, drank, caroused, and injured. We know that he lived his life in wanton sin and rebellion and that many people feared and hated him.
"But, you know what? He's going to heaven. And do you know why? Because God is too good and loving to let even this wretched, evil soul go to an imaginary place like hell.
"I know. He hated God and rejected Jesus. He even cursed the cross and did everything he could to oppose Christianity. But, it doesn't matter because, ultimately, you will see him again. Only, he won't be mean and evil. He will be kind and gentle. Jesus will change him. Jesus loves him. Jesus loves him more than we can imagine. He also loves you more than you can possibly know. There is no need to fear Him at all.
"Some may preach that there is a hell, a place of fiery, eternal torment. But I tell you that it is a lie. It is a tool of Tormentists who cannot accept the love of God and how often enjoy the thought of people rotting in that awful place.
"The Bible says that Jesus is the Savior of all men. And that means even this awful, God hating, wretch of a man that has now gone on to meet his maker.
"I preach a message of peace, of reconciliation, of joy, and of God's redeeming power.
"I preach the truth."
After the service, two of the impressionable young kids are talking.
"I liked the sermon the universalist gave. Heck, I was worried about hell. But now I don't have to be worried about it. Now I know I'm going to heaven no matter what. I know I'm not that great a person, but if that horrible man in the coffin is going to heaven, then I am sure I will too. After all, I'm not as bad as he is."
His friend answers, "Yep, I don't have to give up my drugs, sleeping with my girlfriend, or stealing CD's from the music store. Life is great!"
"Well, I don't think it means we can go sin, though."
"I know. I was just kidding. But you are right. No worries. No problem."
The two walk off enjoying the new found freedom found in the love of God, but they now don't need to trust Jesus as their savior. They have no need to appeal to Jesus to save them, because there isn't anything to save them from. They walk away unredeemed.
And let's not forget about the co-worker who has been thinking of going to church. He has been committing adultery and he has been fearing the judgment of God. He thinks to himself....
"Whew! Am I glad to hear that message. That was great! I don't have to worry about anything. Man what a relief. No hell! I'm going to heaven! Man Oh Man! this is so cool.... Guess I don't have to go to church tomorrow and I can forget about reading what the Bible says about Jesus and sin.... no need. Okay, maybe I should stop the adultery. But, that sure was a good message from that universalist. I feel so much better about God's love. I feel so much better knowing there is no hell."
He walks away not having confessed his sins to Christ (1 John 1:9), not having been cleansed, not having received Christ (John 1:12), not having been justified by faith (Rom. 5:1).
....... an eon later..... heaven.....judgment seat.... God is there.... and if the universalist is wrong....
Two boys and a coworker are in hell. They never did trust in Jesus as their savior. They never did confess their sinfulness and ask Jesus to forgive them. But, at least they felt good while on earth and they didn't have to listen to those people who preached hell-fire.
Why is it that Jesus warned us to not go to the "fiery place" if it isn't real? Why did He speak more about hell than heaven? Why did He tell us to turn from sin and be SAVED! Saved from what? Saved from Damnation!
Universalism is a dangerous teaching. It weakens the need for a savior and that is a great risk to take for such a dubious teaching.



According to Matt's own words this is a exaggerated" illustration.


Well I have an illustration also that is not exaggerated but really took place.

There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one,  and killed another, and stoned another. 36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? Mat.21:33-40

FORGIVE THEM

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. Lu.23:34

[Paul Hazelwood]

The Danger of Universalism Illustrated
Universalism teaches that all people will eventually be saved and that no one goes to the fiery-hell to suffer for their sins. It means that everyone is saved, whether or not they have accepted or openly rejected Jesus' atonement. Of course, this goes against Heb. 10:26-27 which says,
"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries" (NASB).


Matt is misrepresenting what most Universalists believe here, as I have said time and time again the universalist believe in aeonian fire, for we all reap what we sow.

Two other things here.

First,

Hebrews 10:27 is also used to say that a "believers" sins are mistakes and therefore God views the "believers" heart as pure and the believer will want to repent after a sin.  So it is one of those loop holes to Gods law as if a Christian cannot possibly willfully commit a sin.   

We hear this manifest in judgment of someones behavior by saying  "They are not really saved in the first place".   In reality if Gods Law truly allows for an eternal punishment for sinful behavior then the Christian, whether calvinist or otherwise is taking a risk for their own soul and the souls of those they teach this to by using Gods word in this manner. I am not even using this argument to bypass a risk of the universalist position.  MATT,  if there is a risk of eternal torment, then you your self  will not truly know your fate until the day of reckoning YOU teach is coming.  What will you be saying MATT at the day of judgment?   "God did I not reach 1000's of people with my internet website, in your name LORD?"  "Did I not, in your name LORD defend the faith against the wretched UNIVERSALISTS that were leading everyone astray?"

You MATT CANNOT prove that you will NOT hear the words "DEPART FROM ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU"

The point I am making with this first point is that if we speak of risk of eternal torment, all believers are at risk no matter if they say otherwise.  In fact, entry into heaven almost becomes like a game to try to fool God.  (SOUND FAMILIAR MATT?)  Gee God,  you know my heart, I would never intentionally do anything wrong, so my sins are different from the unbelievers sins HUH GOD?   


I had this very conversation last night with a friend who is increasingly becoming confused over all the different messages he is hearing about salvation.  But rather than trying to get him to believe me I see a great work being done in his life, he is right on the same edge many of us are who come to see Gods love and that is that he is tired of listening to everyone else and is starting get that desire to know what God really wants him to know.   It is very cool to watch.   I was getting goose bumps just listening to my friend dig deep in his heart wanting to once and for all know the truth.  (seek and ye shall find).  God has prepared him for this point and time.

Second point,

Matt is, I believe, confusing Unitarian doctrine with Christian universalism.   There is no Christian universalist / reconciliationist documents that I know of that deny the need to accept Christ.  The issue is that acceptance of Christ is an inevitability based upon verses such as John 6:44.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but at least for me, I do not deny the eventual need for that acceptance,  I just also believe that God works these things in people lives based on their life and not the specifics of what religion defines must happen to their satisfaction.

So, Matt is completely  in error, willfully or through ignorance, I personally do not really care, but Universalist doctrine does not deny the need for the acceptance of Christ, it recognized the eventuality of it based upon the path of LOVE that is GOD.

[pneuma]

The Danger of Universalism Illustrated
Universalism teaches that all people will eventually be saved and that no one goes to the fiery-hell to suffer for their sins. It means that everyone is saved, whether or not they have accepted or openly rejected Jesus' atonement. Of course, this goes against Heb. 10:26-27 which says,
"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries" (NASB).


Matt is misrepresenting what most Universalists believe here, as I have said time and time again the universalist believe in aeonian fire, for we all reap what we sow.

Two other things here.

First,

Hebrews 10:27 is also used to say that a "believers" sins are mistakes and therefore God views the "believers" heart as pure and the believer will want to repent after a sin.  So it is one of those loop holes to Gods law as if a Christian cannot possibly willfully commit a sin.   

We hear this manifest in judgment of someones behavior by saying  "They are not really saved in the first place".   In reality if Gods Law truly allows for an eternal punishment for sinful behavior then the Christian, whether calvinist or otherwise is taking a risk for their own soul and the souls of those they teach this to by using Gods word in this manner. I am not even using this argument to bypass a risk of the universalist position.  MATT,  if there is a risk of eternal torment, then you your self  will not truly know your fate until the day of reckoning YOU teach is coming.  What will you be saying MATT at the day of judgment?   "God did I not reach 1000's of people with my internet website, in your name LORD?"  "Did I not, in your name LORD defend the faith against the wretched UNIVERSALISTS that were leading everyone astray?"

You MATT CANNOT prove that you will NOT hear the words "DEPART FROM ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU"

The point I am making with this first point is that if we speak of risk of eternal torment, all believers are at risk no matter if they say otherwise.  In fact, entry into heaven almost becomes like a game to try to fool God.  (SOUND FAMILIAR MATT?)  Gee God,  you know my heart, I would never intentionally do anything wrong, so my sins are different from the unbelievers sins HUH GOD?   


I had this very conversation last night with a friend who is increasingly becoming confused over all the different messages he is hearing about salvation.  But rather than trying to get him to believe me I see a great work being done in his life, he is right on the same edge many of us are who come to see Gods love and that is that he is tired of listening to everyone else and is starting get that desire to know what God really wants him to know.   It is very cool to watch.   I was getting goose bumps just listening to my friend dig deep in his heart wanting to once and for all know the truth.  (seek and ye shall find).  God has prepared him for this point and time.

Second point,

Matt is, I believe, confusing Unitarian doctrine with Christian universalism.   There is no Christian universalist / reconciliationist documents that I know of that deny the need to accept Christ.  The issue is that acceptance of Christ is an inevitability based upon verses such as John 6:44.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but at least for me, I do not deny the eventual need for that acceptance,  I just also believe that God works these things in people lives based on their life and not the specifics of what religion defines must happen to their satisfaction.

So, Matt is completely  in error, willfully or through ignorance, I personally do not really care, but Universalist doctrine does not deny the need for the acceptance of Christ, it recognized the eventuality of it based upon the path of LOVE that is GOD.

Hi Paul good post bro.

I think I already mentioned this earlier, but just in case I didn't, I'll point out one more thing concerning Heb.10:26-27

Matt relates this to those who do not know God and to those who reject Him.

But Heb.10:26-27 is NOT in relation to the unsaved, it is in relation to the Christian, for it says, For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth

And no unsaved person can be said to have recieved the knowledge of the truth.

[WhiteWings]

Matt relates this to those who do not know God and to those who reject Him.

But Heb.10:26-27 is NOT in relation to the unsaved, it is in relation to the Christian, for it says, For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth

And no unsaved person can be said to have recieved the knowledge of the truth.

I still have problems understanding the words 'unsaved' and 'received the knowledge of truth'
What exactly is the defenition of unsaved?
And what is knowledge? Even atheists, satanist and moslims know about Jesus. So I guess that's not enough knowledge.
When you have enough knowledege? When the HS speaks to you?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Matt relates this to those who do not know God and to those who reject Him.

But Heb.10:26-27 is NOT in relation to the unsaved, it is in relation to the Christian, for it says, For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth

And no unsaved person can be said to have recieved the knowledge of the truth.

I still have problems understanding the words 'unsaved' and 'received the knowledge of truth'
What exactly is the defenition of unsaved?
And what is knowledge? Even atheists, satanist and moslims know about Jesus. So I guess that's not enough knowledge.
When you have enough knowledege? When the HS speaks to you?

I personally cannot use those terms in the light of traditional theology of making a choice at some point to say "I accept jesus"  "pray the sinners prayer etc"    I believe that salvation is "the" process from beginning to end of Gods journey for all of us.   1 Timothy 2:4 says we will "come" to the knowledge of truth.   I would say the truth is something so vast that the bible cannot contain it all.   

[pneuma]

Matt relates this to those who do not know God and to those who reject Him.

But Heb.10:26-27 is NOT in relation to the unsaved, it is in relation to the Christian, for it says, For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth

And no unsaved person can be said to have recieved the knowledge of the truth.

I still have problems understanding the words 'unsaved' and 'received the knowledge of truth'
What exactly is the defenition of unsaved?
And what is knowledge? Even atheists, satanist and moslims know about Jesus. So I guess that's not enough knowledge.
When you have enough knowledege? When the HS speaks to you?

I agree with Paul's answer WW.

Plus unsaved is just another way of saying those that have not yet recieved Jesus into their life.

[Tony N]

Matt relates this to those who do not know God and to those who reject Him.

But Heb.10:26-27 is NOT in relation to the unsaved, it is in relation to the Christian, for it says, For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth

And no unsaved person can be said to have recieved the knowledge of the truth.

I still have problems understanding the words 'unsaved' and 'received the knowledge of truth'
What exactly is the defenition of unsaved?
And what is knowledge? Even atheists, satanist and moslims know about Jesus. So I guess that's not enough knowledge.
When you have enough knowledege? When the HS speaks to you?

Dear WhiteWings,
To me the "unsaved" are just the ones not specifically chosen to be living for the duration of the last two ages/eons. They were not "set for eonian life" (Acts 13:48) which is just the life pertaining to the oncoming ages/eons. But they will be saved at the consummation of the ages/eons.

As far as a "knowledge of the truth" I think the Concordant version has a better rendering of "a realization of the truth" where "realization" is "epi-gnocin" or "on-knowledge." The CLNT also used "recognition" for this Greek word. It is more than just knowledge.
Take for instance the knowledge "Christ died for our sins." However, entering into a realization of that knowledge is to be able to apply it to one's life and receive joy and peace with God knowing that truly all our sins have been dealt with. So it is more than just a "knowledge of the truth." That's when you know you have entered into the realization of the truth.

And is it not a wonderful picture of the future God has in store for all humanity? I can just see all mankind for the first time actually entering into the fullest appreciation of the realization of the truth. Such joy and peace universal!

Tony

[pneuma]

If election is true what is the danger in universalism?
Universalism teaches that Jesus died for all people and that all will eventually be saved. It also teaches that if someone rejects Christ in this life, he can accept Jesus in the next one, even if he is a horrible person who severely blasphemed God.

A horrible person kind of like Paul who went about killing the body of Christ until Jesus was made manifest unto him. What is the difference between God saving a horrible person in this life or the next life? NOTHING, what Matt is trying to do is get the reader to focus on the horribleness of the person in question as if to say see there is no way God will ever save that person, yet Paul was indeed one of those horrible persons and was saved.


The danger with this is that based on this principle in universalism, someone could adopt an attitude of complacency who would then choose to live a life of sin and rebellion and wait until the afterlife to become a true believer -- even if there is some "purification" involved in the afterlife. The obvious problem is that if universalism is wrong and the person hopes to be saved in the next life, he'll face an eternity of hell instead of heaven. This is an inherent weakness in Universalism. CARM has many discussion boards. One of them is on universalism. I have raised this issue to them many times and two responses have come forth from: one is to ignore the point all together and not admit it exists. The other is to ignore the issue and counter attack. The most prevalent counterattack against me is a challenge regarding election (I'm Reformed in theology) and ask that since God's elect cannot be deceived, how can universalism pose a threat to the elect?


Matt keeps talking about universalism giving one an attitude of complacency and of course Matt is correct it can give one an attitude of complacency. But this is the same argument those who held to the law made about Paul's preaching of GRACE. Did Paul quit preaching grace because some might used it as an excuse to continue sinning? NO HE DID NOT Paul express it this way.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.

Paul was fully aware that some could use the preaching of grace to continue in sin, yet Paul still preached it.

Should we hold back the truth of universal salvation just because some might use it to continue in sin as Matt would have us do, or do we take the lesson from Paul and warn those who would use it to continue in sin not to do so?

What Matt would have the Universalist do is suppress the truth just in case some might take liberty with it. Paul would not do that and neither should the universalist. 

In part, the universalists deflection of the real question is understandable since they desire to defend their position at all costs, a consistent pattern with them. But, what is amazing is their inability to admit the possible danger in their position. To them, it is quite impossible to consider anything in universalism to be less than perfect. This is disconcerting. Nevertheless, I'll answer their objection, even though they refuse to address mine, in hopes of encouraging them to actually face the issue and admit the danger.


What! I just explained it according to the tradition given us in scripture.
Matt holds to the view of the Scribes and Pharisees, the Universalist hold to the view of GRACE.

You the reader will have to decide for yourselves who hold to the view of truth


Reformed theology teaches that God elects, from all eternity, those who will be saved and that this election cannot fail; those who are elected to salvation will be saved and only those who wanted to be saved are elected to be saved. Likewise, it is not possible for the elect to lose their salvation since the cross has made it secure.

Basically Matt is saying that God is only going to save the elect He has predestined, therefore making God's predestination or lack thereof work both ways which is to say God predestined some people to go into everlasting torment.

This view would make Hitler look like an angel in comparison to God.

All the reader has to do is read Romans chapter 11 and they will see how those whom God predestined fell away and that falling was in effect to the salvation of those who had not been elected by God from the beginning.

Thus when the FULNESS of the Gentile comes in (is grafted in) then ALL Israel will be grafted in and all will be saved. Thus the salvation of all mankind.


Universalism can contribute to people procrastinating regarding salvation in the here and now in order to wait until the after-life where they have a second chance, an opportunity to be purified in a hell-like state after which they will then be able to go to heaven and be with God forever. Of course, if universalism is wrong, then those who had erringly put their hope in Universalism's second-chance-in-the-afterlife-belief would be lost forever. The question then, if election is true, does it really matter regarding universalism's truth or error?
Yes it does. First, God does not want error to be taught, regardless of election or not. Universalism is an error.
Second, both election and warning against false teachings are taught in the Bible. Therefore, there is no contradiction since God's word teaches both.

Election:
"And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short," (Matt. 24:22, cf., Mark 13:20).
" . . . so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect," (Matt. 24:24, cf., Mark 13:22).
"And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other," (Matt. 24:31, cf., Mark 13:27).
"now shall not God bring about justice for His elect, who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?" (Luke 18:7).
"Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies," (Rom. 8:33).



Well no one will argue that election is not written about in scripture for it is, but that's not the issue Matt says he was going to answer. The question Matt says Universalists ask him is how can universalism pose a threat to the elect?

According to Matt understanding of election (which he is way off the mark because he does not understand the purpose of election) is that as God predestined the elect they could not go to hell even if they wanted to. So then how does universalism pose a THREAT to the elect? Can it sway the elect so that they go to hell? Not according to Matt, so were is the THREAT?


Warning against false teaching
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves," (Matt. 7:15).
". . .See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many," (Matt. 24:4-5; cf, Luke 21:8).
See also Acts 20:29; 2 Cor. 11:13; Eph. 4:14
Therefore, for the universalist to think that the two issues are contradictory in any way is unwarranted because the Bible teaches both concepts.


Again no one will argue that scripture gives warning against false teaching, but those warnings mention nothing about the salvation of all mankind as being a false teaching.

As a matter of FACT the restitution of all things has been spoken of since the world begin.

Acts 3:21
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Thus any other doctrine given to you other then the restitution of all things falls into the category of false teaching.


"The subject of election is God, who chooses on the basis of his sovereign will for his creation. Associated with election are theological terms such as 'predestination,' 'providence,' and 'covenant.'"1 The elect are God's chosen people who were set apart from the foundation of the universe to be saved, to belong to God.

To what purpose does God elect Matt? Your understanding leaves the election without a purpose. Whereas Gods election is for the express purpose of grafting in those who were not of the election. Again this is all seen in Romans chapter 11.

So, if this is true how can I consistently warn people against the errors of universalism? Actually, if the universalists wanted to be consistent, why would I warn anyone about anything? Shouldn't I just sit around and do nothing because God will take care of it all regarding the elect? The answer is simple. God ordains the means as well as the ends in election. He uses Christians, freed from sin, to do His sovereign will according to His command to refute error and make disciples.
"Holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict," (Titus 1:9).
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. . . " (Matt. 28:19).
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28).
Obviously God wants people to refute error, to make disciples, yet it is He who predestines people. How does this work? I am not sure.


And that is your problem Matt, your not sure how God does this work, yet you have the audacity to tell others that the salvation of all mankind is a false teaching, yet those of the election is for the express purpose of leading all of mankind to salvation.


But God has it under control. Furthermore, we do not know the criteria by which God elects, but elect He does. The Bible teaches that plainly. It is not, however, based in anything good in us for there is nothing good in us; we are sinners. That is why God shows no partiality; that is, He does not elect based on anything in us.

Hmm something we agree on, election is not based on anything of ourselves.


Also, God says the prayers of a righteous man (Christian) can accomplish much with Him (James 5:16). How can that be if He predestines all things (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:28-29)? I don't know. But, He predestines and He instructs us to pray because it makes a difference with Him. How does that work? Again, I do not know and I cannot explain the mind of God. But, God predestines, commands us to be careful about false teaching, and instructs us to go make disciples?

And again that is your problem Matt, you don't know. When you come to the understanding that the election is for the salvation of all mankind then you will know why the prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much with God.



Is it contradictory to say that God elects and that our prayers can influence Him? Not at all, since both are true in scripture. Furthermore, I absolutely believe that God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Acts 4:28) and I believe my prayers and efforts (i.e., CARM) make a difference. In fact, I am far more evangelical than most people: I've literally got thousands of hours in evangelism experience, preaching, teaching, witnessing, apologetics, web, radio, etc, and I have many testimonials how the efforts have made a difference in peoples' lives. This all goes to prove one very important point: God ordains the means as well as the end.
It isn't up to me to figure out all the nuances of God's mind and how all of it fits together.
I leave that to Him and I go forth in obedience to His declaration (predestination/election) and His command (make disciples).

Hmmm Matt would have the reader believe that because he has many followers that He is correct, but so to did the Scribes and Pharisees have many followers and that did not make them correct.

Matt preaches an election without purpose. Whereas election is for the purpose of grafting in those who were not predestined from the beginning.