Answering Matt Slick's article against Universalism

[pneuma]

Good luck with your battle pneuma.

Thanks, sometimes it does feel like all we do is  :BangHead: :BangHead:

[pneuma]

Is "forever and ever" without end?
The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.
forever and ever

aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"   
Eternal - without end   Eternal Damnation
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).   "And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity.
In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great whore of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.
Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, "aionas ton aionon," which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is "aionas aionon" which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.

Here we go again,

First: Matt says aionios to aionios means without end/eternal thus making a mockery of the scriptures, for how can something that is eternal be from eternal to eternal or without end to without end. So place eternal in each of the 18 times forever and ever (aionios and aionios) is used in the Greek and you have such statements as.

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory eternity and eternity Amen,"

So then how can aionios mean eternal in the sense of without end if Gods glory is from eternity to eternity? Obviously this translation (without end/eternity) is in error because in each of the 18 scriptures they speak of two aionios/eternities. The translators should have translated it ages and ages as both Young literal and Rotherham's emphasised has done and any confusion goes away and we read it like this.

17and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, [is] honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen. Young's

To show ages to ages is a proper translation, within this very scripture there is a word used that actually means without end, that word is immortal or in the Greek aphthartos

So if the scripture was meant to convey without end should it not have rather used aphthartos instead of aionios?

Also of note is that aphthartos is NEVER used concerning Gods judgments, which if God judgments were to be without end surely the scriptures would have used it.

Second: Matt says in 17 out of the 18 times the phrase means without end, why not in all 18 times? Seems Matt has to change the meaning of the word in at least one instance in order to make it fit his doctrine.

Again the reader is going to have to decide for themselves whether aion and it adjective aionios means without end or whether it means ages and pertains to the age.

[pneuma]

Unquenchable Fire
Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.
Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)
Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire." The word "unquenchable" is "asbestos" in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."
The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word "unquenchable," which is "asbestos" in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.
"unquenchable, inextinguishable" - Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
"not quenched" - Vine, W. E., Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
"pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable." - Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, [Online] Available: Logos Library System
"unquenched, unquenchable" - Enhanced Strong's Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
"that cannot be put out" - Wigram-Green, The New Englishman's Greek Concordance and Lexicon, (Peabody Mass: Hendrikson Publishers, 1982, p. 771.
"inextinguishable" - William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, 2nd ed. (Chicago, Ill: The University of Chicago Press), 1979, p. 114.
Is hell eternal? Yes it is. Are its fires without end? Yes they are. Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Not really. But, hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel. Jesus said,
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).


Just because the fire is unquenchable does not make it a fire without end, not one of the Greek dictionaries and Lexicons state that unquenchable is without end.
They all use words like, unquenchable, inextinguishable" , "not quenched" ,"pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable." ,"unquenched, unquenchable" , "that cannot be put out" ,"inextinguishable"

Not once do we see the words without end, thus Matt is adding his own definition to the meaning of the word.

So then we can see that unquenchable does not have anything to do with TIME, but rather it deals with the property of the fire, in that this fire cannot be PUT OUT.

But just because the fire cannot be put out does not mean that the fire does not go out once all that is burnable is consumed.

This is so easy to see in that Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed with unquenchable fire, and if we look to Sodom and Gomorrah we do not see a fire still burning there today. So what happened? When all that was in Sodom and Gomorrah that could be burn was consumed the fire went out.

Also if the reader reads Ezekiel 16:53-55 they will see that Sodom and Gomorrah will be restored.

So much for Matt's belief that unquenchable mean without end.

[WhiteWings]

1. Impossible to slake or satisfy: unquenchable thirst.
2. Impossible to suppress or destroy: unquenchable enthusiasm.

IMO unquenchable fire can burn forever if it doesn't run out of fuel.
Most importantly that doesn't prove there are people inside that fire (forever).
I see it as one of those big forest fires. They are unquenchable by man. They just rage on until they find nothing to burn. And then it just dies.

I underlined "by man" for a reason. Just because, IMO, it means the ones inside can't put it out. For God nothing is impossible; so putting out that fire takes a fraction of a second for Him.

[pneuma]

1. Impossible to slake or satisfy: unquenchable thirst.
2. Impossible to suppress or destroy: unquenchable enthusiasm.

IMO unquenchable fire can burn forever if it doesn't run out of fuel.
Most importantly that doesn't prove there are people inside that fire (forever).
I see it as one of those big forest fires. They are unquenchable by man. They just rage on until they find nothing to burn. And then it just dies.

I underlined "by man" for a reason. Just because, IMO, it means the ones inside can't put it out. For God nothing is impossible; so putting out that fire takes a fraction of a second for Him.

:thumbsup:

[pneuma]

The demonic forces will not be saved

There are some universalists who believe that Satan and all of the demonic realm will be redeemed through the atonement of Jesus. Though I have found this is a minority view among the universalists, it is still worth addressing and correcting.

I happen to be one of those few.

The demonic realm will not and cannot be redeemed. This simple reason is that they have no Redeemer. Jesus is the Redeemer of humanity, not of the demonic realm.

Matt seems to be one of those who would diminish the cross of our Lord, for the scriptures state that ALL things visible and INVISIBLE are reconciled by the blood of His cross.


Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God


There is a doctrine in theology called the hypostatic union. It is the doctrine of the two natures of Jesus. Jesus is both God and man. He was God so that He could appease God the Father with the sacrifice of infinite value. We need a sacrifice of infinite value because when we sin, we sin against an infinite God. Therefore our offense against Him has infinite consequences.
No mere human can please and satisfy an infinitely holy and righteous God. Only God Himself can satisfy the infinite requirements of His own holiness. Therefore, "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," (John 1:14). Jesus became our atoning sacrifice to turn away the wrath of God (Rom. 5:9) by bearing our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). Therefore, those who trust in Christ are saved by grace (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 6:23).
Likewise, the reason he needed to be a man was so that he could atone for the sins of mankind. He had to be made like one of us.
"For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." (Heb. 2:16-17).

Hmmm, if one reads Heb.2:16-17 to the exclusion of the angelic as Matt does, then it is also to the exclusion of the Gentile, for it says He gives help to the descendants of ABRAHAM, and the Gentiles are not of Abraham.

But we know Matt's understanding of Heb.2:16-17 to be in error as the scriptures I already gave show the INVISIBLE are also reconciled by the blood of His cross.
And we also know that His body was sent to the Gentile, and He Himself also gave help to the Gentile.

The fallen angels do not have a sacrifice on their behalf. They do not have the infinite God becoming one of them and atoning for them. Therefore, the demonic realm will not be saved.

Hardly, just the few scriptures I just provided show that the gospel is also preached unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places.

Also if the reader will go back and read the first few post in this rebuttal I explained this in greater detail.
______________________
John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Rom. 5:9 - "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
1 Pet. 2:24 - "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
Eph. 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
Rom. 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Yep all good scriptures, but not one of them states His blood was not shed for the angelic.

[pneuma]

Fallen angels go to the lake of fire forever
Some Universalists maintain that even the demonic horde will ultimately be redeemed and enjoy heaven. Other Universalists deny that the demonic forces will be redeemed. You often get different answers from different Universalists. Is it important? Yes, it is.
People are redeemed because they have a Redeemer, Jesus. Jesus is God in flesh (Col. 2:9) who bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). Nowhere in the Bible does it state that Jesus bore the sins of demons.

Huh! Read it again

Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


Why? Because it did not happen.

Just showed by scripture that it did.
Maybe Matt would like to explain to the reader who these thrones, dominions,  principalities, and powers are that are reconciled by the blood of Christ.

Better yet lets let Paul tell us.

Ephesians 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Who are you going to believe Paul or Matt?

The reason this is important is because we can then see that the demonic realm does not have a savior and cannot be redeemed from their sins. They will remain in their sins for eternity.

Really! Please then explain who the thrones, dominions,  principalities, and powers are?
And well your at it explain how one remains in their sins when the scriptures tell us that the lamb of God takes AWAY the sin of the WORLD.

We see the pattern of God's incarnation, bearing of sins, dying, resurrection, and justification by faith (Rom. 5:1). We see that God became man. We see that Jesus was both God and man (Col. 2:9). It was necessary that He be both God and man for a very simple and important reason. He had to be God in order to offer a sufficiently holy and infinite sacrifice to counter the infinite offense against God that creatures commit against Him. He had to be man in order to bear the sins of men. He had to represent the ones for whom He atoned in order for them to be atoned for.
According to this pattern that we see in Scripture, for the demonic realm to be saved, God would have become one of them, bear their sins, and, somehow, redeem them through death or some other means that God would determine. Yet, there is nothing in scripture to substantiate that this has or will occur. Therefore, the demonic realm has no redeemer and their sins will be retained, forever.

Matt keeps saying there is no scripture that states the angelic are saved, yet I just showed two scriptures that tell us they are.

But some might ask, "Could God have another means by which He saves the fallen angels?" Yes. He could, most anything is possible. But mere possibilities do not make actualities. The Bible does not provide any redemptive plan for the demonic forces. Therefore, we can safely conclude that there is none. Demons are not and will not be redeemed.

Ah but the Bible does indeed provide redemption for the angelic, for the last time read it again.

Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Ephesians 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[WhiteWings]

Mmm, the way I see it all universalists have the view the satan and his horde won't be in the fire forever.
Maybe the longest of all but not for ever. All the "for ever" and "age-during" is also valid for satan and his horde.

[Craig]

Mmm, the way I see it all universalists have the view the satan and his horde won't be in the fire forever.
Maybe the longest of all but not for ever. All the "for ever" and "age-during" is also valid for satan and his horde.

That is only a select few who believe that Satan is saved. Most believe that Satan nothing but a tool which after it is done it's use, it is destroyed. Satan is not a man and is only anthropomorphized so that we can relate more to his function. He does not have emotion, he does not have intelligence, nor is he a soul. He is a spirit called the accuser (or opposition), his purpose is to sift mankind and help us recognize the Truth and the difference between good and evil. This spirit functions more as a Title, because anyone, the Law, your friends, your family, can operate in this function. When all is harmonized and God is all in all, Satan is no more.

[pneuma]

Reconciling the whole world
Some Universalists maintain that all the demonic forces will be redeemed because it states so in the Bible. It doesn't. Nevertheless, following are some of the verses used by the Universalists to claim that the demonic realm will be redeemed. I've commented following each verse.
1 Cor. 15:27-28 "For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."
This is simply stating that all things will be subject to God. Even the damned will be subject to God because in hell they are in a state of subjection to God's judgment upon them. It is God's will to judge those who are unsaved. It is according to His law and they will be subject to that righteous judgment.

The word subject in the Greek is hupotasso which is a military word, Strong's says
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".

It is also the same word used when one is to obey.

Thus hupotasso/subject is to OBEY in a military fashion, or come under the direction of their leader.

1Cor.15:27-28 therefore is speaking of ALL things being OBEDIENT unto God.

These scriptures are not talking about disobedience as Matt would have the reader to believe but they are speaking of OBEDIENCE.

Thus when ALL are subject to God all are OBEDIENT to God.

It is by this subjection/obedience that God becomes all in all, and the scripture points this out most clearly when it states the SON HIMSELF also shall be subjected to God.

What Matt would have the reader do is change the meaning of the word hupotasso within the same sentences, thus playing with words to suite his own doctrine.
 
Col. 1:20, "and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven."
This verse does not state that the demons will be saved. Reconciliation means to bring someone or something into a right relationship with another. The lawful and proper relationship of the unsaved before God is damnation. Those who are condemned to damnation are rightly condemned and their relation to God is proper. They are eternally subjected to His judgment.


What a terrible view Matt has here, he is making the blood of the cross of non effect.
The scripture plainly says He reconciled all things to Himself, (and here is the good part on how He did it) having made PEACE through the blood of His cross.

Thus if one is to follow Matt's understanding then Matt sees damnation as the PEACE some people receive through the blood of His cross.

Besides all that, Matt would have the reader believe that after reconciliation by the blood of His cross those who are damned are brought into their right relationship with God, that right relationship being that they are damned. But isn't that the relationship that they had before the reconciliation?

So what did the reconciliation of PEACE by the blood of His cross do for them if they are in the same state as they were before the reconciliation took place? Absolutely NOTHING, thus making the blood of His cross of non effect.

Dear reader do you honestly see PEACE in the eternal torment Matt is speaking of?
Are not PEACE and TORMENT opposites of each other?

Like always you the reader will have to make up your own minds.

The demonic horde is not in heaven. This is speaking of God reconciling His people to Himself -- those who who have died and gone to be with God and those who are still living in this world. But, it is only the Christian who is redeemed. Those who reject Christ are not.


Huh are not those who have believed and died ALREADY reconciled? So how can it be speaking of just those who have ALREADY died in the Lord?

Matt would have the reader believe that those who died in the Lord and those yet that are living, both the visible and the invisible, be they thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers is speaking of the Christian.  Thus forgetting that Paul tells us these thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers are rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph.6:12

And that to these principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God  Eph.3:10.

Who are you going to believe Paul or Matt?

Rom. 8:19, "For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."
Does creation have a will? No it does not. Obviously we have figurative usage here. This is dealing with creation as a whole, earth, sky, animals, stars, etc. All of creation was affected by Adam's sin because Adam was the one who was in charge of it. Since Adam's sin (and the sins of his progeny) are cleansed, then that which Adam represented is also cleansed; namely, creation. Creation did not have a redeeming sacrifice for its sin since creation did not sin. Rather, as sin entered the world through Adam, when all sin is finally dealt with, its effect will be removed from the creation that was given to Adam in his dominion authority.


Hmmm if sins effect is removed from creation how can there be eternal torment?
Are not those in eternal torment a part of creation? Sure they are, and like Paul says (if Matt had bothered going even one verse more) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.  23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Paul makes plain here that these scriptures are talking about all created life, for he says they (referring to creation) like OURSELVES wait for the adoption to wit the redemption of our body.
 


The angels who fell were not under Adam's representation. They had their own freedom to choose what they wanted to do. They willingly sinned. They willingly rebelled. And, they have no propitiation, no atoning sacrifice to have their sins forgiven.

Does not matter how many times Matt states this is not going to make it true.
I have already shown by scripture a number of times that the reconciliation of PEACE by the blood of the cross is for all of creation both visible and invisible.

Also note that "all creation" does not always mean every created thing. Look at Mark 16:15 Jesus said, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation." All creation here is not inclusive of the planets, stars, nebulae, nor the angels. We are told to preach the gospel to people. And consider Col. 1:23, ". . . the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven. . . " This is not speaking of angels, planets, etc. It is a representative usage of people all over the place.

The Gospel is to be preached to all creation, and contrary to Matt's belief that it is not preached to angels Paul says.

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Thus the reader can see for themselves that the Gospel we receive is ALSO made manifest by the church the manifold wisdom of God to the angelic.

[Shadow]

Col. 1:20, "and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven."
This verse does not state that the demons will be saved. Reconciliation means to bring someone or something into a right relationship with another. The lawful and proper relationship of the unsaved before God is damnation. Those who are condemned to damnation are rightly condemned and their relation to God is proper. They are eternally subjected to His judgment.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkenedRom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things

If these verses mean what I think they mean, then clearly the unbeliever isn't the only one in serious trouble with God

[pneuma]

Col. 1:20, "and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven."
This verse does not state that the demons will be saved. Reconciliation means to bring someone or something into a right relationship with another. The lawful and proper relationship of the unsaved before God is damnation. Those who are condemned to damnation are rightly condemned and their relation to God is proper. They are eternally subjected to His judgment.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkenedRom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things

If these verses mean what I think they mean, then clearly the unbeliever isn't the only one in serious trouble with God

Hi Shadow, correct you are imo as judgment (and it is the same judgment) MUST begin with the house of God, and God rightious judgment are evidence/proof that we are His children.

If you need scripture for those two thoughts just let me know and I can supply them.

God bless

[pneuma]

Why is this important?
The Lake of Fire was created for the devil and his angels. The devil and his fallen angels have no redeeming sacrifice the way we do. The demonic forces will be cast into hell and since they are not forgiven, their punishment is without end. Likewise, we see that people are also thrown into the Lake of Fire. Since the angels' condemnation is without end in the Lake of Fire, so to is the punishment delivered to those people who are also cast into that very same lake.
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Rev. 20:14-15, And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Mark 9:43, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,"
The demonic realm has no redeemer. Jesus did not bear their sins in His body. He bore OUR sins in his body (1 Pet. 2:24). Since they do NOT have a sin-bearer, they will remain in their sins. Their punishment is eternal. Since there are people thrown into that SAME lake of fire, their punishment is likewise eternal. Is hell eternal? Yes. Are all people saved? No.

As I have already covered this and covered it again I'll just give the reader scripture that shows Jesus Christ's sacrifice is for the whole world.

1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 

As the reader can see Jesus did not just die for our sins but for the sins of the whole world.

[pneuma]

Does eternal punishment deny God's justice?

Some of the proponents of Universalism maintain that eternal punishment cannot be true because if God eternally damned someone, it would mean that the punishment would never be complete. Therefore, God is not satisfied, His judgment is not realized, and justice is never accomplished.
The first problem with this objection is the idea that God's eternal judgment necessarily must have an end. If it is eternal punishment, then it wouldn't end. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life," (Matt. 25:46). Not all judgments and punishments end. Consider a person who is executed for a capital crime. His punishment is death. In effect, it is a judgment that is eternal. The judgment is completed by the accomplishment of a sentence: execution. The sentence has an eternal duration which will not end and at the same time the judgment has been accomplished. The judgment, in and of itself, is eternal by definition and this does not mean that it is not satisfied or realized. The eternal sentence of death, has been accomplished and is still in effect. Therefore, we can see that a valid punishment with an eternal result can be a reality.

First: Gods judgments are all corrective in nature.
Second: they are only for a limited duration.
Third: the wages of sin is DEATH not eternal punishment.
Forth: DEATH is to be swallowed up in victory and thus its sting is no more.

Matt would have the reader believe that death and its sting is eternal, but all the reader has to do is read 1Co.15:54-56 to see Matt's belief runs contrary to scripture.


Second, it is not logically necessary that an eternal punishment upon a sinner be an insufficient or non-accomplished judgment. It is just as logical to say that God's infinite justice is properly accomplished with an infinite punishment. After all, an offense of infinite value would require an infinite punishment.

Well it is illogical to believe in an eternal death of punishment when the scriptures tell us death is swallowed up in victory and it sting is no more.
Thus Matt's presentation is illogical.

Third, it would be an injustice to God's infinite righteousness and holiness to have the sinner's punishment be terminated.

Hogwash, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Of course, I am not here speaking of discipline, where the Lord chastises a person and welcomes him back into fellowship. I am speaking here of damnation, that pronouncement upon a sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ.

Eek Gad, the damnation of hell is for discipline or chastisement unto correction.

Matthew 23:33
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Damnation here come from the Greek word krisis and means judgment, so let look and see if krisis is used for correction.

Matthew 12:18-21
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

He we see the damnation of hell is unto victory.

Acts 8:32-35
32  The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Here we see Jesus suffered the damnation of hell. So according to Matt's belief Jesus must still be suffering for he believes damnation is eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:2-5
2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Here we see the righteous damnation of God is a manifest token/evidence/proof that we may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God.

These are just a few scriptures that show how the damnation of hell are for correction and not some kind of torture chamber that is without end.

As I said above, it follows that if God is infinite and the sinner has offended God, then that is an infinite offense.

Well if when one sins against God and it is an infinite sin then all mankind will be tormented without end for all have sinned against God and fallen short of His glory.

But, but, but our sins were paid for by Christ some will holler so our infinite sin against God is forgiven.

Did you so soon forget what the two John's said.

1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.  



If judgment upon the sinner regarding his sinfulness were temporal, then it means that a sinner's suffering is sufficient to appease an infinite God.

This is not about suffering for suffering, it is about suffering the CORRECTION of God, and yes when one has been corrected they have right to the tree of life as is stated in Rev.22:14


That would be unjust since, Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Paul is saying that if we could be please God by what we do (suffer), then Christ died needlessly.

Huh? Gal.2:21 is talking about trying to enter into the promise land without the ark/Christ and has nothing to do with suffering a fire without end.

Fourth, the universalists have stated that though the unrepentant sinners are truly forgiven in Christ, they must be "punished," "purified," "corrected," for a period of time in the after life before they are ready to be admitted into the eternal life of realized forgiveness. This is a very dangerous teaching because it strikes at the very heart of the atonement of Christ. For a person to suffer the judgment of God because of his sin until he is found worthy to be with God is to state that the atonement is insufficient and must be completed through the suffering of the sinner. This is blasphemous and must be avoided at all costs.
It should be plain to see that the universalist position is incorrect.

Basically what Matt is saying here is that those who believe in Christ do NOT have to be purified and corrected because their sins are forgiven.

Yet we just finished reading that damnation is evidence/proof upon us that we may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God.
Thess.2:2-5

So what Matt is saying is that this PROOF that makes us worthy for the kingdom of God does away with or makes His atonement insufficient.

Seems Matt forgets that the gold, silver and precious stones go through the fire right along with the wood, hay and stubble.

Now since this portion is dealing with God justice I would like to set forth a scenario for the readers consideration.

Two men are brought before God's justice, the first man has been a good father and husband, he has helped the poor, visited the widows, does not lie, cheat or steal, but never accepted Jesus as his Lord and saviour.
The second man beat his children and wife, murdered countless innocent people, man woman and children, lied stole and cheated his whole life, yet a month before his death he accepted Jesus as his Lord and saviour.

According to the church standard the first man goes into eternal fire just because he never accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour and the second man gets a free ride into the kingdom of God. 

This is Gods justice? According to church standard it is.

But Gods justice demands the death of the sinner, which is our old man, and the only way God has provided for the death of the old man is by the way of the cross, that fiery law that when written in our hearts produces a cross. It is by this method that the damnation of hell is used for correction, thus making us worthy to enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus did not die for us so that we don't have to die, He died for us to show us the way we to are to die, thus taking up our CROSS and following Him.

Thus both the first man and the second man go through the fire to purify and correct them, for it is not enough just to accept Jesus as Lord and saviour one must overcome in order not to be hurt of the second death.

This  is easily shown if the reader would keep in mind that the gold, silver and precious stone go through the same fire as the wood hay and stubble

[WhiteWings]

Mat 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

chas·ten (chsn)
tr.v. chas·tened, chas·ten·ing, chas·tens
1. To correct by punishment or reproof; take to task.
2. To restrain; subdue: chasten a proud spirit.
3. To rid of excess; refine or purify: chasten a careless writing style.

Consider a person who is executed for a capital crime. His punishment is death. In effect, it is a judgment that is eternal.

That sounds more like the annihilation than the ET doctrine.
And with that statement Matt also gives a correct meaning to the verse below (against his will)
The effect lasts for ever and ever. Meaning the removal of the sinful nature lasts forever.
Just like death by a firingsquad takes a second but the effect is forever.
Revelation 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
Smoke=effect

Second, it is not logically necessary

That simply means there are different outcomes possible. In this case:
1] ET
2] annihilation
3] UR

The exact outcome needs to be established by more direct verses.

Third, it would be an injustice to God's infinite righteousness and holiness to have the sinner's punishment be terminated.

For different crimes God suggests different punishments. In Matts line of reasoning every crime should be punished by death, lifelong enprisonment or something similar. God doesn't seem to agree...

As I said above, it follows that if God is infinite and the sinner has offended God, then that is an infinite offense.

And if that sinner did a deed that really pleased God. Doesn't that make God infinite happy?
I also remember versers about 'payback time' (sure many here know the ones I mean)
Stealing requires paying back 3 fold. When stealing tools of the trade 6 fold. Or something similar.
Something tells me that those laws made by God reflect His personality. Not just concerning Earth but also Heaven.

Fourth, the universalists have stated that though the unrepentant sinners are truly forgiven in Christ, they must be "punished," "purified," "corrected," for a period of time in the after life before they are ready to be admitted into the eternal life of realized forgiveness. This is a very dangerous teaching because it strikes at the very heart of the atonement of Christ.

Ok Matt, and what about all the people that never heard about Christ because for example they lived before Jesus was born?

Message for Matt
(http://bibleshack.com/archive/cartoons/kartoon-knuggets/14.jpg)

[pneuma]

The Danger of Universalism

Universalism teaches that all people will eventually be saved through the atonement of Christ. It says that all mankind, even those who have openly rejected Jesus, those who have willingly committed horrible crimes and died without repentance, and without the covering of Christ's blood, will enjoy a future with God.

First no scripture states that man cannot repent in the age to come, but there is scripture that shows man repents in the age to come. Rev.22:14-15 tells us that the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters who are without the gate have right to the tree of life if they keep His commandments and may enter in through the gates  into the city.

Second Universalism does not teach that people can enjoy a future with God without the blood of Christ as a covering.

What we do believe however is that every man, woman and child is ALREADY covered by His blood, for Jesus Christ shed His blood on the cross for ALL 2000 years ago.

The problem many people have here is they think Jesus death is what saves us and because they believe this they come into the error of stating that Jesus sacrificial covering is not upon those who have rejected Christ in this life.

This is a great error that MUST be CORRECTED in the church, for it is NOT His death that saves us, rather it is His RESURRECTION that does, for we are RECONCILED by His DEATH, but SAVED by His LIFE. Ro.5:10

To many of Gods people focus on Jesus death, and not enough place the focus where the gospel should be which is on His resurrection. And they do this because they think Jesus death saves us.

However it is true that without His death there could be no resurrection, but it is a twofold work, first His death which reconciled ALL 2000 years ago should be preached to those who know not God in order that they come to know that His death and therefore reconciliation indeed applies to them. This brings them into the same hope that we who believe have which is the resurrection of the dead or salvation by His life.

The doctrine of eternal torment gives no hope for the dead, yet Paul says that if in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.1Co.15:19   


This belief is based upon the idea that God's love is so infinitely great, that His grace in Christ is so awesome, that everyone will be saved. This simply is not true.

I cannot believe what I just read here. Does the reader not believe that God's love is infinitely great and that His grace in Christ is awesome? What Matt is saying is that God's love which never fails and His grace cannot save everyone. Thus making Gods love fail, for it was BECAUSE of LOVE for the whole world that God sent Jesus into it for the worlds salvation.

So yes the salvation of all is based on God's love that cannot fail, but this basis is not wishful thinking as those who believe in eternal torment would have the reader believe, for we find this base in scripture upon scripture upon scripture.


The danger of universalism is that it to can give someone a false sense of security about their eternal destiny.

Not if Universalism is understood correctly it doesn't. Although some Universalist do not believe in a future age of correction, I am not one who does so.

Universalism teaches that ALL but those who overcome are hurt of the fires of the second death. Thus all men will reap what they have sown.

Therefore it is not the universalist belief that give a sense of false security, that sense of a false security rests solely on the shoulders of those who believe in eternal torment. For they go about teaching man that if they accept Jesus Christ they will magically be spared the sting of lake of fire.

Note: the lake of fire is for correction and all mankind have need of Gods corrective fire.


It can remove the need of accountability.

Not so, we all reap what we have sown, on the other hand however the belief in eternal torment removes the need of accountability for that doctrine teaches man is not accountable for their own sins because Jesus died for them.

So accept Christ into your life then live like the devil because you don't have to worry about being accountable for you actions. They use Jesus as some type of fire insurance.

Reader you may think I am being overly dramatic here, but I can't tell you how many Christians I have spoken with who believe in eternal torment that have said to me, "well if I believed as you do (in the salvation of all) I would go out and enjoy all the pleasures of the flesh because I am going to be saved anyway." Does statements like the above not show what is really in their heart? Does it not show how because of fear they have taken Christ into their life as a type of fire insurance and not because of love for Him as it should be.


It can remove the fear of judgment.

Perfect love casteth out fear.

It does not require repentance.

Sure it does, it just does not require repentance in this life.


A person who adopts universalism can easily conclude that if he is going to be saved no matter what he does, then why be concerned about repentance or accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior?

Only if they do not understand that we all reap what we have sown. Some will be beaten with many stripe, some with few. Any good parent would warn their child of the stripe ahead if they continue in their sins.

This potential error is most dangerous. Especially because if universalism is not true, then the false sense of security it has given to those who have not trusted in Christ, will lead them to damnation. This is a very serious danger.

Already explain how it is not the universalist view that gives a false sense of security but rather the eternal torment view does.

Of course, simply because it is possible that people will become lax in accepting Christ if they adopt universalism, it does not mean this is what will happen. Nor does it mean that all Universalists think they can go out and sin wilfully.

No universalist that I have spoken with believes they can go out and sin wilfully and get away without paying a price for wilful sin. As I have said repeatedly Universalists believe we reap what we have sown. Does that sound like we believe that we can go out and sin wilfully to you the reader?

On the contrary, most Universalists are very moral. But, there is the inherent danger in universalism that reduces the need for repentance and salvation. This is a great risk. Eternity is a long time to be wrong and hell is a terrible place to be forever.

Well we have already seen time and again that eternity is of limited duration and that the hell of eternal torment without end does not exist.

[Paul Hazelwood]

In case Matt might heppen to read this.


There can be a risk in eternal torment way of thinking too.  The basic teaching is just saying you accept Christ and that seals the deal and you have a fire insurance policy.    The risk of insurance is that when you try to collect,  you realize you did not meet the conditions of the policy.    The risk is seen because of the vast difference of opinion in what the fine print of the policy says.   :laughing7:


But talk about a confusing Doctrine.   Calvanism expressly states that God has already chosen the elect and there is those who are predestined to be in hell forever. 

And you bother to point out a risk?   Please.....

[WhiteWings]

Exactly Paul.

UR teaches (almost) everyone will get a cleaning period.

Calvinism teach life your life whatever way your choose because your destination is fixed.
Or kill, rape and steal your whole life. The last minute of your life, repent, and you go directly to Heaven.
The Mother Terasa type without religion goes to the BBQ.

[WhiteWings]

It's good to see Matt is running out of steam.
He stopped backing up his claims with verses.
He accused UR folk of using common sense/feelings like "a loving father won't BBQ"
But now he starts using terms like: can't, danger etc.

Personally I don't have a problem with that because (the good parts of) our moral comes from God (IMO)
But you can't have it both ways. Either you allow of disallow it in your reasoning.

[pneuma]

What does Satan want?
Satan wants the destruction of people. Satan wants people to die in their sins and go to hell. He is utter hatred and complete evil. But, he is also extremely cunning with an intelligence that is vast. Universalism may very well become a tool of the evil one in the last days.


Matt says that the preaching of the salvation of all (which really boils down to the UNMERITED LOVE OF GOD for the whole world) may well be a tool of the evil one.

Would that not then make Paul a tool of Satan? For Paul states that love NEVER fails 1Co.15:8 and we all know that the reason God sent Christ into the world was because He (God) so LOVED the world, and that through Christ the WORLD might be saved. Jn.3:16-17.

If the world is then not saved, does that not equate with LOVE failing?

Sure it does, therefore we know that any doctrine that implies Gods LOVE fails is a doctrine of error.


It weakens the need to trust in Christ in this life.

Hardly, the only reason people would believe that God will save the world weakens the need for Christ in this life is because they either refuse to hear just what we believe, or are not given the chance to hear what we believe because of the powers that be. Matt is guilty of both, for he himself refuses to hear and will not allow those that would hear to hear by standing in their way in that on his carm board the salvation of all is taboo, if one even hints that God is the saviour of all the post is deleted and the poster banned.

The carm mods will say it is Matt's house and he can do with it as he pleases, if he does not want the salvation of all spoken of in his house that his right.

But is it not suppose to be Gods house?

In Universalism, Satan can work his false doctrines through its adherents. This is clearly the case since many Universalists deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. But in universalist theology, it really doesn't matter. Why? Because ultimately, in the after life, people will come to a true knowledge of God and repent and be saved. So, even if they are wrong now, they will be right later.

Yes Matt the truth will be brought to light and all shall see the light.
No man made set of doctrines like those set before us by the council of Nicaea will save man, man is only saved by following Christ and not by any set of doctrines set down by man.

Satan says, "Don't worry about receiving Jesus now. You can do that later.
" But it is Christ who says,
"At the acceptable time I listened to you, And on the day of salvation I helped you" ;behold, now is "the acceptable time," behold, now is "the day of salvation" (2 Cor. 6:3).
"He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts" (Heb. 4:7).


Hmmm what right does man have to set the limit of TODAY to this age only?

Just by the two scriptures Matt quoted above we can see TODAY spans at least two ages, for the day of salvation or TODAY is mentioned by David who was under the age of law, and again mentioned by Paul who was in the age of grace.

Thus TODAY is not limited to one age, but rather is given in future ages as well.

The meaning of the day of salvation or TODAY is this: when God draws you to Him and opens your eyes and gives you a hearing ear is your TODAY or the day of your salvation.

Until this happens your TODAY or day of your salvation has not yet come upon you.

We all know that millions of people died without hearing the voice of the Son of God concerning the day of their salvation, but we also know by scripture that the dead shall hear His voice and those that hear shall live. Why? Because those outside the gate, when they keep His commandments still have the right to the tree of life. Rev.22:14-15


What would be a uniting religious concept that would tend to unite different religious systems? Universalism! Think about it. If everyone is going to be saved, then Buddhism, Islam, Catholicism, Mormonism, Hinduism, etc. will not keep people out of hell. If all religions adopted universalism, then each could look at the other as being a different belief (or even error) that would, nevertheless, lead a person to redemption in the after-life.

What! The gospel is not about following any religion its about following Christ.
This seems to be the problem with people, they look at following Christ as a religion, well He is not a religion, He is King of kings and Lord of lords the saviour of the world.

People tend to think these other religions are nothing but error upon error, but they are not, in these other religions we can find truth, howbeit truth that is overrun in error.

All these religions have taken some truth from the word of God and corrupted it, they do this in the exact same manner Satan did when he took the word of God and tempted Jesus with it. Satan greatest asset is the word of God by way of corruption and is the reason we have so many religions today.

Most of us know Satan is one smart cookie, and what better way then to corrupt the word of God in order to undermine the truth therein.   

[bobf]

Just by the two scriptures Matt quoted above we can see TODAY spans at least two ages, for the day of salvation or TODAY is mentioned by David who was under the age of law, and again mentioned by Paul who was in the age of grace.

Thus TODAY is not limited to one age, but rather is given in future ages as well.

lol.... by matt's logic, tommorow, no one can be saved.

[pneuma]

What does Jesus save us from?
Jesus saves. But what does He save us from? Does Jesus save us from ourselves, our thoughts, our actions, our temperament, or even our sins. No.

What? Matthew 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 

Matt's tunnel vision here in order to prove his doctrine right is at the expense of the scriptures themselves, for the reader can see we are indeed saved from our sins.

He saves us from the wrathful judgment of God upon us due to us because of our sinfulness. There is a natural consequence to being a sinner: judgment. God will punish the sinner (Hosea 8:13; 9:9). The one who rejects Jesus does not have a covering for sin, does not have forgiveness of sins, and has the wrath of God abiding upon him:
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him, (John 3:36).
Jesus saves us from that wrath. Jesus saves all those who receive Him (John 1:12; Rom. 8:1) so that they can escape the judgment to come.
He therefore began saying to the multitudes who were going out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Luke 3:7).


Universalists do not deny Gods judgments, we just don't see them as unending, we see them as only being of the age or aeon, which is always used to denote a limited time.

Read again Rev.22:14-15 and you will see that those who are outside the gate are those who are under Gods judgment and that if they keep His commandments have the right to the tree of life and may ENTER IN THOUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.


Jesus warned us about hell (Matt. 5:22,29-30;23:33; Mark 9:45; Luke 12:5). In fact, He spoke more of it than He did of heaven. He does not want you to go to that place of torment. That is why He said, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

Hogwash this just go to show how well read Matt is, instead of searching the matter out Matt stands on the company line of Jesus spoke more of hell then He did heaven.
Jesus mentions the word hell 15 times in the Gospels and of those 15 only 12 are in reference to Gehenna. 12 times Jesus mentioned Gehenna and on this 12 time those who believe in eternal torment make up their doctrine.

Yet just in the sermon on the MT. Jesus speaks of heaven 18 time. 18 time in one sermon and Matt would have the reader believe Jesus spoke more on hell then He did heaven.

Don't believe me, look it up for yourselves.



If universalism is true, then where is the power in Jesus' warning? If universalism is true then there is no eternal fiery hell, no dread of being cast into it, no wrath to come -- but there is!

Hogwash Universalist believe in Gods fiery judgment and all the warning about it, so for Matt to state if universalism is true it mean there is no wrath to come is pure hogwash.

Hell is the real place. Jesus came to save us from it.

Well Gods judgment is most definitely real, but the mainstream idea of hell is nowhere found in the scripture. Hell as taught in the mainstream churches is of pagan origins.


But you must trust Christ and His atoning sacrifice in order to escape the wrath of God.
Does universalism lead us to urgency? Does it lead us to fear the wrath to come? No.
It doesn't. It removes the urgency. It removes the fear of God.
Now, I am not saying that we must live in fear or that fear is the only motive to be saved. But, Jesus Himself warned people about hell and the Bible tells us that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom," (Prov. 9:10).


Hogwash the fear of God is reverential and not something that is to be afraid of.
Do you the reader serve God because you are afraid of Him or because you are in awe of Him? His awesomeness is the beginning of wisdom and what is more awesome then to know that Jesus Christ is the saviour of the whole world. Oh taste and see that the Lord is GOOD and you have gained the beginning of wisdom in awe of our LORD.



Conclusion
Universalism can lead to complacency. It can easily lessen the concern for salvation and repentance. In this, there is danger.

Ya, ya ,ya the same thing was said about what Paul preached also (grace) by those who wanted to keep the people in BONDAGE to the LAW.

[WhiteWings]

What? Matthew 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 

What does 'his' mean?
His followers? Or just everyone?

Well Gods judgment is most definitely real, but the mainstream idea of hell is nowhere found in the scripture. Hell as taught in the mainstream churches is of pagan origins.

Hogwash the fear of God is reverential and not something that is to be afraid of.
Do you the reader serve God because you are afraid of Him or because you are in awe of Him? His awesomeness is the beginning of wisdom and what is more awesome then to know that Jesus Christ is the saviour of the whole world. Oh taste and see that the Lord is GOOD and you have gained the beginning of wisdom in awe of our LORD.

Pneuma I think I don't fully agree with this part. Sorry  :laughing7:
Sure the punishment is not classic hell. It has limited duration. And is more a teaching than a torture process.
But does that mean it's not to be feared?
As a kid I never feared my parents would kill or torture me; but when I pulled some stunt I did feel some fear for punishment. Even if I knew it would just last a short while and it never would be severe. (actually always below the mild level)
To be honest I don't know what to exactly expect from Gods punishment/correting. I don't think it's classic hell. Neither I think it's so little you don't even notice it. Likely no real pain is involved but I think it will be far from a good time.
Just my  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Read again Rev.22:14-15 and you will see that those who are outside the gate are those who are under Gods judgment and that if they keep His commandments have the right to the tree of life and may ENTER IN THOUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

One more question if you don't mind.

It's clear to me that those inside the gate are the ones that kept God commandments. Those on the outside didn't.

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 
The word 'do' is that just in this life or also after this life?
I guess/know your answer will be also after this life. But how you know that? From verses scattered througout the Bible; or the context of a few earlier verses?

Strong on the word 'right'
1849 evxousi,a exousia {ex-oo-see'-ah}
Meaning:  1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases 1a) leave or permission

Can someone choose not to take advantage of that right and die?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I see Matts point on fear a contradiction.

He asserts that universalism takes away the fear (terror) but then says that we must not live in fear (terror) or that this fear (terror) is not the only motive.


Well, if he is not saying that, why be concerned over it?

It is a classic emotional ploy,  you start with what will capture attention, then digress, what captured attention will be in the forefront of someones mind.   So then rather than state facts, Matt puts question to what he is against through emotion.

If there is no reason to live in fear and fear is not really the motive then there is no factual concern that universalism takes it away.


I tend to try not to argue over whether we should or should not fear Gods wrath.   I personally am in awe of the God I have come to know.  I KNOW that I am not perfect, I KNOW that I even do things wrong intentionally because thats what I feel like doing.   What God has in store for me to correct me of that may be beyond my wildest nightmare I really do not know for sure.

I just have become to believe that Gods correction is something I may not want as far as my flesh is concerned, but I know that it is not to be feared in terror.