Arguments against universalism?

[darsemnos]

Would it be ok to post arguments by major theologians against universalism? I wouldn't be advocating their positions, but as one who is kind of on the fence there are some points some of them make that I would like addressed. This is mostly because I brought this up with some of my friends, all of home ardently believe in eternal hell, and they are fairly theological if that makes sense. I would like to be able to refute their arguments, or the people they quote. 

[FineLinen]

Why don't you place your arguments by the "major" theologians in the following section designed for such an enterprise?  :happygrin:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?board=24.0

I Am A Convinced Universalist by Dr. William Barclay

HERE

[FineLinen]

This is mostly because I brought this up with some of my friends, all of home ardently believe in eternal hell, and they are fairly theological if that makes sense.

All you want to know about eternal hell.  :thumbsup:

Search= "eternal hell"

Your search query for 'eternal hell' has yielded no results. Please modify your search query and try again.

[dboutwell]

I think that would be a great idea, Darsemnos. :)

Debbie

[Zach]

Yes, definitely. Tentmaker has a few of them posted on the site, but not very many. (Pink's "Eternal Punishment" is by far the strongest of the three.) It is certainly possible to make a good case against universalism, and we should not ignore the arguments against it just for our own ease.

I must admit I find one of Pink's arguments particularly disturbing:

One other remark may be made upon Universalism before turning to our next subdivision, and that is, the very fact that Universalism is so popular with the wicked, is proof irresistible, that it is not the system taught in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us

"the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

That the natural man does receive the teaching that every one will ultimately be saved, is a sure sign it does not belong to "the things of the Spirit of God." The wicked hate the light, but love the darkness; hence, while they deem as "foolishness" the truth of God and reject it, they esteem as reasonable the Devil's lies, and greedily devour them.

[FineLinen]

(Pink's "Eternal Punishment" is by far the strongest of the three.)

A.W. Pink Universalism Refuted

HERE

Part 1

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/InDefense/UniversalismRefuted/refuted1.htm

Part 2

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/InDefense/UniversalismRefuted/refuted2.htm

Part 3

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/InDefense/UniversalismRefuted/refuted3.htm

Part 4

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/InDefense/UniversalismRefuted/refuted4.htm

Part 5

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/InDefense/UniversalismRefuted/refuted5.htm

Part 6

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/InDefense/UniversalismRefuted/refuted6.htm

Part 7

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/InDefense/UniversalismRefuted/refuted7.htm

[arup]

I must admit I find one of Pink's arguments particularly disturbing:

One other remark may be made upon Universalism before turning to our next subdivision, and that is, the very fact that Universalism is so popular with the wicked, is proof irresistible, that it is not the system taught in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us

"the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

That the natural man does receive the teaching that every one will ultimately be saved, is a sure sign it does not belong to "the things of the Spirit of God." The wicked hate the light, but love the darkness; hence, while they deem as "foolishness" the truth of God and reject it, they esteem as reasonable the Devil's lies, and greedily devour them.

One thing to consider:

If the natural man receives the teaching that every one will ultimately be saved, why is a religious spirit so rampant throughout the world?   

[Zach]

Thanks for the link to the Knoch article. I notice that the article he was writing about was one completely different from the article I linked to, but it's nice to see that they still don't have a good explanation of Colossians 1:16-20 (easily the strongest universalist proof-text, in my opinion).

[FineLinen]

Thanks for the link to the Knoch article. I notice that the article he was writing about was one completely different from the article I linked to, but it's nice to see that they still don't have a good explanation of Colossians 1:16-20 (easily the strongest universalist proof-text, in my opinion).

Link to A. W. Pink Eternal Punishment

HERE

Zack: rest assured that the strong universalist proof-text in your opinion, (Col. 1:16-20), is one of the strongest declarations that the ta pavnte/ the all is to find consummation into Christ Jesus the Lord. That same ta panta/ the all is referred to in Eph. 1:10  and Romans 11:36.

Romans 11:36 & Col.1:20 & Eph. 1:10

Ta panta= the all things. The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins.That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta panta en Christ.

Ta panta = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will.

The whole creation= the all/ ta pavnte 

[Zach]

Actually, I don't believe Pink looked at that verse specifically in "Eternal Punishment." He did include a brief dismissal of inferring universalism from the word "all," which no doubt would have included the Colossians text. I agree with him about that as a general thing, actually, but the Colossians passage is an exception because there are extremely strong exegetical grounds for taking "all" literally there (as I attempted to demonstrate in another thread). Far stronger than Romans 5:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:22, even. I think that passage is the only reason I'm a universalist now (though I confess I find Ezekiel 16 and Isaiah 57:16 to be rather compelling as well).

Of course, there may be another way of looking at it, of which I'm not aware. I hope not, but it's a possibility.

[FineLinen]

The Colossians passage is an exception because there are extremely strong exegetical grounds for taking "all" literally there (as I attempted to demonstrate in another thread). Far stronger than Romans 5:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:22, even. I think that passage is the only reason I'm a universalist now (though I confess I find Ezekiel 16 and Isaiah 57:16 to be rather compelling as well).

Well, Zack, if Col. 1:20 is the "only reason" you are a universalist now, you evidently must acquaint yourself more fully with the Scriptures including Romans 5: and 1 Cor. 15.

And all mankind (all flesh) will see/ shall see God's salvation.

"The Lord will be terrible unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place and all the isles of the heathen." -Zeph. 2:11- 

"Men shall worship Him"

"Every one"

"From his place"

"And all the isles of the heathen"

Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. -Zeph. 3:8,9

And the purpose of our Lord's burning anger, and zeal, and devouring?

For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent (shoulder to shoulder).

Our Lord declares through His prophet that He will bring all men, "all of them", to worship Him with one consent, from their place, as He purifies lips by His burning fire, to call upon Him.

The Lord of Hosts will make unto all peoples a feast of rich food, a banquet of matured wine well refined. And He will destroy the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God shall wipe away tears from off all faces;....for the Living Life has spoken it.

All men, even the isles of the "heathen" serving the Lord shoulder to shoulder! The veil, covering "all people", and "all nations, destroyed. Swallowing up death in nothing short of victory! Tears wiped away from "all faces." The One who endorses such statements?.....The Living Life who has spoken it!

I will gather the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted...and the Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.

[dboutwell]

Thank you, Lord.  \0/

[willieH]

I must admit I find one of Pink's arguments particularly disturbing:

One other remark may be made upon Universalism before turning to our next subdivision, and that is, the very fact that Universalism is so popular with the wicked, is proof irresistible, that it is not the system taught in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us

"the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

That the natural man does receive the teaching that every one will ultimately be saved, is a sure sign it does not belong to "the things of the Spirit of God." The wicked hate the light, but love the darkness; hence, while they deem as "foolishness" the truth of God and reject it, they esteem as reasonable the Devil's lies, and greedily devour them.

One thing to consider:

If the natural man receives the teaching that every one will ultimately be saved, why is a religious spirit so rampant throughout the world?   

:goodpost: Arup!

I personally stand upon the BEAUTIFUL fact that GOD does NOT CHANGE... (Mal 3:6)

If He so LOVED the World, then He DOES LOVE the World, and ALWAYS WILL LOVE the World... (John 3:16-17)  And if CHRIST was NOT sent to condemn, ...then the unchanging stance requires that, He isn't, wasn't or ever will be sent to CONDEMN...

Furthermore,  ...the observation of the Salvation of ALL, establishes an ALMIGHTY GOD (the Creator) which LOVES His Creation... well able to REDEEM it through HIS EFFORTS to do so... and thereby STAND VICTORIOUS over ANY FORM of LOSS or DEATH which the introduction of EVIL has wrought through the defiled works of MAN... (His Creation)

Peace  :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS...willieH :gamer:

[SeekerSA]

One other remark may be made upon Universalism before turning to our next subdivision, and that is, the very fact that Universalism is so popular with the wicked, is proof irresistible, that it is not the system taught in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us

"the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

That the natural man does receive the teaching that every one will ultimately be saved, is a sure sign it does not belong to "the things of the Spirit of God." The wicked hate the light, but love the darkness; hence, while they deem as "foolishness" the truth of God and reject it, they esteem as reasonable the Devil's lies, and greedily devour them.

I wonder if Pink actually reads scripture with natural or spiritual eyes.

It is a typical theme in ET circles that the natural man is the one to be saved flesh and all.  Now pray tell, how does one become spiritual and discern spiritual without the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, all though scripture, the natural is a shadow of the spiritual.  Hence we judge the outward deeds of the man viz his fleshly deeds but fail to see the spiritual man inside, the one seeking God.  Probably why Jesus said judge not.

I have not finished the article yet but it is obvious the defence of bondage to religion that is being offered, the works unto salvation et al.  It amazes me the exclusionism that comes forth when in reality, God is no respecter of persons.  A 3 letter word of ALL is just too much for them to swallow.

Blessings

[bobf]

One other remark may be made upon Universalism before turning to our next subdivision, and that is, the very fact that Universalism is so popular with the wicked, is proof irresistible, that it is not the system taught in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us

"the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

That the natural man does receive the teaching that every one will ultimately be saved, is a sure sign it does not belong to "the things of the Spirit of God." The wicked hate the light, but love the darkness; hence, while they deem as "foolishness" the truth of God and reject it, they esteem as reasonable the Devil's lies, and greedily devour them.

LOL.  How ironic is that. The wicked harlot publican sinners were the ones receiving Jesus words while the holy-than-now pharisees were not able to.  There is nothing new under the sun.

[Peacetroll]

All have fallen short of the Glory of Christ.

All are with sin (for the mortal body is drenched in evils).

Regardless, we must believe in Christ to see the future Kingdom.  This is directly taught by Christ himself.

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And those who the Father has given him believe in him.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Faith in Christ is the 'golden' ticket.

John 16:27
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

There is no way around the narrow gate.  It is the only entry into the future Kingdom.

Peace to all in Christ Jesus.

[SeekerSA]

Eric

You keep avoiding the part of the Father having to draw.  How do you explain that away?

Blessings

[pickr]

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Hi Peacetroll,

Hey. Good NEWS! (Gospel!)

John 3:35  "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. "

Isn't that great?! Jesus won't lose anything the Father gives Him, and the Father gave Him everything there is. WOW!

Peace and blessings,

Andy

[Kept]

Amen Andy  :myahoo:

Kept

[martincisneros]

One other remark may be made upon Universalism before turning to our next subdivision, and that is, the very fact that Universalism is so popular with the wicked, is proof irresistible, that it is not the system taught in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us

"the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

That the natural man does receive the teaching that every one will ultimately be saved, is a sure sign it does not belong to "the things of the Spirit of God." The wicked hate the light, but love the darkness; hence, while they deem as "foolishness" the truth of God and reject it, they esteem as reasonable the Devil's lies, and greedily devour them.

Pink evidently didn't know very many wicked people, or maybe he had nothing but the deepest admiration for the wicked people in his life.  Let's test his hypothesis with some examples of wicked people:

Do the Klu Klux Klan want African Americans, Jews, Mexicans, Japanese people, and Native Americans in heaven?

In the 1930s and 1940s did Adolf Hitler want Jews, gays, Africans, Russians, the English, the handicapped, and Americans in heaven?

Did Nero want Christians and Jews in heaven?

Did Hannibal want the Romans in heaven?

Do Mohametans want Christians, Jews, Israelis, and Americans in heaven?

Did McCarthy want Communists in heaven?

Wouldn't all of the above and countless other wicked people pride themselves on exclusivity?