Why was UR not promoted more strongly in the early church?

[joyful1]

The following was taken from :
http://www.askelm.com/news/n020820.htm

Why then was not the understanding of universal reconciliation more strongly stated? One reason was given by Origen himself (responding to a critic of Christianity) in Against Celsus.

Origen believed that proclaiming universal reconciliation to the unconverted might be dangerous for them. It should be presented guardedly. He writes about the purification of sinners, which was a part of Origin's view of universal reconciliation,

"But the remarks which might be made on this topic are neither to be made at all, ... [but] for the sake of those who are with difficulty restrained, even by fear of eternal [aeternum] punishment, from plunging into any degree of wickedness, and into the flood of evils which result from sin."
• Origen, Against Celsus, 6:26

===========================
I enjoyed reading the above 3 part article by Ernest L. Martin, December 1982, edited by David Sielaff, August 2002.

Thanks for recommending it, FineLinen! :)

It was precise, simple, short and to the point! A great resource/primer for anyone thinking about studying or sharing UR!

Joyce :)

[pneuma]

The following was taken from :
http://www.askelm.com/news/n020820.htm

Why then was not the understanding of universal reconciliation more strongly stated? One reason was given by Origen himself (responding to a critic of Christianity) in Against Celsus.

Origen believed that proclaiming universal reconciliation to the unconverted might be dangerous for them. It should be presented guardedly. He writes about the purification of sinners, which was a part of Origin's view of universal reconciliation,

"But the remarks which might be made on this topic are neither to be made at all, ... [but] for the sake of those who are with difficulty restrained, even by fear of eternal [aeternum] punishment, from plunging into any degree of wickedness, and into the flood of evils which result from sin."
• Origen, Against Celsus, 6:26

===========================
I enjoyed reading the above 3 part article by Ernest L. Martin, December 1982, edited by David Sielaff, August 2002.

Thanks for recommending it, FineLinen! :)

It was precise, simple, short and to the point! A great resource/primer for anyone thinking about studying or sharing UR!

Joyce :)

Hi Joyful, for myself  I disagree with Origen view on this.
The writer of Hebrews states
Hebrews 6:1-3
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,  2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Eternal/aeonian judgment is like the rest of the above doctrines is only the milk of Christ so must be taught to children. If we are to do as Origen suggested and preach it guardedly we are robbing the children of milk and we all know milk does the body good  :laughing7:

As to Origen's  reason that the restitution of all things could lead some into more degrees of wickedness.

I'll refer you to Paul's words in this regarded. Read Romans chapter 6

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

The preaching of the restitution of all things is the preaching of GRACE and even Paul knew some could use GRACE to continue in sin did not stop Paul from preaching Grace.

Anyway that's just a few scriptural reasons I disagree with Origen's view that we should preach it but preach it guardedly.

God bless

[joyful1]

Sorry for the confusion, Pneuma!  :mshock:
I agree with YOU !  :icon_flower:

I simply re-stated what the author was giving as to THE REASON WHY the church did not promote the doctrine as strongly as they could have.  

I presume that they were influnence by Origen, and perhaps others, who decided that the "common man" was not able to "take the truth." It is regretable that they took this stance....but we see the results today, in that most "churches" are in opposition to what was once held as sacred.

I probably should have put something like: "and NOW we know the REST of the Story!" at the end of my post...sorry!  :sigh:

It was a great article....would have never seen it had not FineLinen posted it, I suppose!
Joyce :)

[pneuma]

Sorry for the confusion, Pneuma!  :mshock:
I agree with YOU !  :icon_flower:

I simply re-stated what the author was giving as to THE REASON WHY the church did not promote the doctrine as strongly as they could have.  

I presume that they were influnence by Origen, and perhaps others, who decided that the "common man" was not able to "take the truth." It is regretable that they took this stance....but we see the results today, in that most "churches" are in opposition to what was once held as sacred.

I probably should have put something like: "and NOW we know the REST of the Story!" at the end of my post...sorry!  :sigh:

It was a great article....would have never seen it had not FineLinen posted it, I suppose!
Joyce :)

Ok I see what you mean now, it seems that some hid the candle under the bush and because they did this many took advantage and ET became popular.

[joyful1]

 :icon_flower: precisely! It seems from Origen's comments that he was afraid of giving some "license to sin," by telling them that their sins were already paid for. But because of his ability to actually translate both Hebrew and Greek quite easily, he was well aware of the scriptures' true meanings and undestood that UR was at the forefront of the "good news!"

The rest of the article quotes not only Origen's understanding of UR but gives the views of many church fathers with knowledge of the Lord equal to Origens, and as well, gives a short, "to the point" presentation of UR from the author's perspective. It nails down in one article what other websites take volumes to convey. I highly recommend it!  :icon_flower:

http://www.askelm.com/news/n020820.htm

[Craig]

I simply re-stated what the author was giving as to THE REASON WHY the church did not promote the doctrine as strongly as they could have.  

Actually Joyful, according to my research, that is one the reason it was not promoted so strongly. Even the apostle Paul warned against letting our freedom actually causing our brother to sin. It is milk doctrine, yes but many people easily (even today) take that milk and believe that they now are free to sin without consequence and that they can go and pursue wicked ventures and pay for it only slightly.

Origen is the main promoter of Universal Salvation, even though others before him taught it. To understand Origen's reasonings, we must recognize he believed in Free-Will (which some of you call a will) because we are rational beings with the capability of understanding our choices and make good choices. At the same time, we had the capability of understanding our choices and make evil choices, especially if for some reason someone was teaching UR/CU incorrectly would be the license to sin.

Origen taught RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY for one's and other's life and doctrine.

Something many people even today deny even in Tentmaker Forums.

[martincisneros]

Origen taught RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY for one's and other's life and doctrine.

:goodpost: May God's grace always be on me to do the same.

[WhiteWings]

Wasn't political/religious influence/pressure one of the factors here?
If you place  a small group of religous people in a enviorment controled by people with another religion it is well possible that those religions start to mix. Especially if the words in the books of your religion can be bent to fit that other religion.

[joyful1]

SotW--yes agreed...one of many factors--
Martin--yes agreed....and ME too! :)
Wabbit--yes agreed...one of many factors--

quite obviously, Rome was the center/crossroads of the world with many ideas/religions...I've often thought that the left over "philosophy" from the Greek era made men ashamed if they were not able to "reason with their own minds" the meaning and origin of "the gods." Watering down and changing the gospel was inevitable in such a hotspot.
Joyce :)

[Craig]

SotW--yes agreed...one of many factors--
Martin--yes agreed....and ME too! :)
Wabbit--yes agreed...one of many factors--

quite obviously, Rome was the center/crossroads of the world with many ideas/religions...I've often thought that the left over "philosophy" from the Greek era made men ashamed if they were not able to "reason with their own minds" the meaning and origin of "the gods." Watering down and changing the gospel was inevitable in such a hotspot.
Joyce :)
v

Nothing wrong with reason if it is derived by the Truth. However, when you are threatened by death to not reason how the Emperor tells you to reason, then your reasoning is faulty since it comes from a faulty premise, the opinion of the Emperor precedes all opinions of even the most learned man, no matter how stupid the Emperor was.

[joyful1]

SoTW--
agreed! sadly true!
what I meant by "reasoning with their own minds" was that they seemed to be reasoning outside of the "mind of Christ."

Would you not say that "reasoning with" the "mind of Christ" first and foremost takes the Word of God to be true, then concludes a matter based on that....where as the natural/carnal mind of man looks at the "data" and reasons what he will to fit what he wants the Word of God to say?

Origen seems to be a person who knew the scriptures quite well and understood the original languages with which it was written. He understood that the Word was stating the truth of UR, albeit he regretfully chose to keep it somewhat on the back burner, so to speak.

Other "church fathers" seemed to want the word to say something else altogether and took what "data" was available to them to present their case; inventing an idea that was compatible with pagan beliefs of a fabled "underworld of fire and torture." Perhaps some did this knowingly in order to "control" others, but some were, perhaps, immature in their faith, combined with a lack of understanding the original languages as well as Origen, were led down the slippery slope of apostasy.

What little understanding of the Word they had was stolen from them by the enemy.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

It also appears to me that they "heard the word of the kingdom"/ UR specifically....it was sown in their hearts....but because they did not reason with the "mind of Christ" or did not allow the Spirit of Truth to be their teacher....the "understanding" was lost....stolen from them. Perpetuating their own "reasoning" from such a position of authority within the "church" presented grave consequences among other new/immature believers and so the stage was set!

Just my thoughts!
Joyce :)

[Craig]

Would you not say that "reasoning with" the "mind of Christ" first and foremost takes the Word of God to be true, then concludes a matter based on that....where as the natural/carnal mind of man looks at the "data" and reasons what he will to fit what he wants the Word of God to say?

The spiritual mind and carnal mind, are the same mind. The spiritual mind finds spiritual knowledge and reasons, while the carnal mind finds carnal knowledge and reasons. Both have data and both have reasons. The spiritual mind is guided by spiritual knowledge and wisdom, just as the carnal mind is guided by carnal knowledge and wisdom.

There are people who conclude, all mankind is saved, but are guided by spiritual knowledge because the motivation or reasoning behind this conclusion is not carnal but spiritual. There are people who have come to make the grace of God the strength to resist sin, these people are comforted by knowing the won't go to hell because they have sinned, and they know God has given them the tools in life to live free, and they are accountable and held responsible for the actions and words at the same time. This is spiritual knowledge, and spiritual reasons.

There are people who conclude, all mankind is saved, but are guided by carnal knowledge because the motivation or reasoning behind this conclusion is not spiritual but carnal. There are people who have come to make the grace of God into a license of sin, these are people who are comforted by knowing they won't go to hell because they like to sin, they like not being held accountable, or held responsible for their actions and words. This is carnal knowledge, and carnal reasons. So yes, the carnal mind justifies itself in what it wants the Scripture to say, so that they may not be convicted in their spirit for the evil they continue to pursue rather than the good they were created to do.

Knowledge is not carnal, it only carnal knowledge is carnal. Knowledge without love is ineffective and unproductive, Love with out knowledge leads one astray.

Colossians 1:9-14
For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

2 Peter 1:2-11
Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Origen seems to be a person who knew the scriptures quite well and understood the original languages with which it was written. He understood that the Word was stating the truth of UR, albeit he regretfully chose to keep it somewhat on the back burner, so to speak.

Origen, like myself, believe God is the Grand Designer. Because there is design, there is pattern; because there is pattern there is reason; because there is reason there is understanding. Origen, like myself, believe God had created men to be both rational and emotional beings with the capacity to see and understand the reason behind God's creation including ourselves.

Universal Salvation is not the Gospel. That is why it appears it appears to be on the back burner. Origen did not keep to chose what he knew on the back burner because it was not true nor he had no hope in it, he kept it in the back burner because he knew that men were emotional and rational beings. Emotional and rational beings, who, in taking the conclusion that all mankind is saved can reason therefore to do evil. So such knowledge is best kept between you and God, as the apostle Paul had said, lest one leads his brother to sin because of it. Origen believed we are responsible and accountable for how we handle the knowledge of God, unwisely, it became a license to sin; wisely, it because the strength to leave sin.

2 Peter 2:20-22
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

1 Corinthians 8:11-12
For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. So, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.

Romans 1:28-32
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

[joyful1]

Very interesting, SOTW--
You said two things that really made me think:
1) you quoted:

1 Corinthians 8:11-12
For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. So, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.

[this is the first time, for me that this verse finally makes complete sense! THANK YOU!!]

2) you said;

"So such knowledge is best kept between you and God,..."

Sort of like Mary when she "...pondered these things in her heart." ?
Clearly, no one was going to believe her story OR her condition of pregnancy from the Holy Spirit.......she must have been like us today, in some ways.......no one is going to believe our report anyway....best keep this to ourselves until God brings that person to a place where they want to ask you for the reason for the hope that lies within you, right?

Joyce :)

[Craig]

Clearly, no one was going to believe her story OR her condition of pregnancy from the Holy Spirit.......she must have been like us today, in some ways.......no one is going to believe our report anyway....best keep this to ourselves until God brings that person to a place where they want to ask you for the reason for the hope that lies within you, right?

You got it! Especially the part I bolded. Whoo hoo.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

Now, there are dozens of Scriptures which support this. However, we cannot make this the standard rule of what is the only thing we do. The problem is, there is also judgment which needs to be made and this needs to be done by spiritual knowledge. Yet many people in the Body of Christ, and I find unfortunately prominent in UR circles, suffer what the Corinthian mistake. That is, they became so accepting of people, that they did not rebuke the wicked among them. They had a strange doctrine, which many have today, even in this forum. Maybe you can find it. They have been so loving and understanding and accepting and tolerating of people who continue to sin, despite tasting righteousness, that they are actually promoting unrightesousness.

1 Corinthians 5:1-12
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

As you can see, in the Corinthians, there was a problem and that problem was no accountability or responsibility for their actions. So, the boasted about it and as a result, let sin remain.

We must impart spiritual knowledge, knowledge that will tear down but with Love that will build up.

[joyful1]

This is a very good point, SotW--
So, concerning 1 Cor 5:1-12 :would you say that the light and darkness MUST remain separate, really cannot help BUT remain separate since there is no fellowship between light and darkness, but that we are all moving towards the time and place when there will be no more darkness; the Light WILL encompass all/be IN ALL? Sort of like how the sunrise comes up and the light traverses accross the earth covering all the land, but not "retreating" back towards the east? I'm thinking of that great explanation that someone gave in another thread of there being in Jesus "no shadow of turning" ; rotation of the earth in comparison to the Sun . We remain the salt and LIGHT of the earth, we do not retreat into or mix into darkness by allowing sin to remain within the body of Christ. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

We still apply the rule of "after the first and second admonition, reject," right?

Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

But we can't allow it to remain permanently.

You said;
"We must impart spiritual knowledge, knowledge that will tear down but with Love that will build up. "
Great conclusion to the matter! :)

Joyce :)

[Craig]

We still apply the rule of "after the first and second admonition, reject," right?

Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

But we can't allow it to remain permanently.

I agree. There is a process. Two or three credible witnesses also must be found, warnings, refute, correction, etc.

Also, the 'not associate' with someone, doesn't mean you are not in contact with that person, as Paul said, "not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world." In other words recognize them for who they are, they are not representative of the Spirit but still of the world.  It means we must acknowledge they are still of the world, living by the flesh and therefore receive the same condemnation of this world if they do not change. Repentance means change.

1 Corinthians 11:31-32
But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.