Accurate timeline

[Paul]

I'd like to see an accurate timeline of the Bible.

Battle of Gog & Magog
Lake of Fire sentencing
New Jerusalem
Reconcilation
etc.

[WhiteWings]

Paul,

Only interested in a future timeline?

[Paul]

No. But if I had to choose between a future and a past, I'd pick future.

[WhiteWings]

I'm trying to compile a list of the best links I have.
But for now a link that takes hours to explore.

http://www.biblediagrams.com/index.htm
http://www.biblediagrams.com/diagrams/index.htm

[Craig]

It is an artificial distinction to choose between past and future.

The accurate time line, is what was, and is and is to come.

[Amie]

What about viewing the bible as a story?  It has the same beginning, middle, and end, regardless of when?

Amie

[martincisneros]

I'd like to see an accurate timeline of the Bible.

Battle of Gog & Magog
Lake of Fire sentencing
New Jerusalem
Reconcilation
etc.

What's funny is that you pretty much nearly presented one above, if by timeline you mean the correct order of the events.  Although, some believe that the battle of Gog and Magog happens twice, once during the tribulation that precedes the millenium 'cause Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 are fairly detailed and indicate David being on the throne at the end of that battle, and then once towards the end of the millenium because Revelation 20 seems to indicate that they don't get very far beyond just surrounding Jerusalem before fire falls from heaven.  I can't see the Gog and Magog battle of Revelation 20 as being physical at all because of the events of the millenium where all of mankind on the earth is a disciple of Christ.  Revelation 20 indicates that Satan himself is gathering his armies, and although the Ezekiel 38 and 39 passage does indicate that Gog and Magog are very likely wicked spirits in heavenly places, yet the events of Ezekiel 38 and 39 seem all natural events that perhaps CNN will cover at that time if they're still around.

(As far as the tribulation, I do have to agree with others that have previously said on these boards that it's a reach to be dogmatic about a 7 year tribulation based upon one verse in the book of Daniel.  The book of Revelation indicates a 42 month period.  It may indicate two 42 month periods, but there seems to be some overlapping of them if I'm reading it correctly.  There's a 1260 day time period in the book of Revelation regarding many of it's events, and there's a 1335 day time period regarding some of the events in Daniel that some take to be parallel prophecy to the book of Revelation.  My understanding of Scripture would allow for a 7 year tribulation, but I just don't see the Scriptures being as dogmatic about a 7 year time frame as some would claim that it is.  And I've seen probably the best that Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey, Perry Stone, and quite a few others have had to offer in teachings along those lines, but it still seems like an assumption more than something that they can tie to very much Scripture.  Many are starting to harmonize with one another, though, that however long this tribulation time period is that the events of Ezekiel 38-39 seem to start it.  Hilton Sutton, Jack Van Impe, and quite a few other leaders in sharing the premillenialist view are starting to harmonize on that one detail, and Ezekiel 38 and 39 seem to have small indications that can be taken that way.)

Then, according to the futurist view we have the Lake of Fire after the resurrection that occurs after the Revelation 20 Gog and Magog incident, which again, I personally think is just the surrounding of the city with the demonic which is what Revelation 20 indicates to me.  God doesn't seem to allow that second attack by those same spirits to get very far into a physical war, otherwise Revelation 20 would have said a little more about it, even if it was just a few verses, or a verse or two more to tie it more solidly into the events of Ezekiel 38 and 39.  After the Lake of Fire judgment, which some Universalists over the years have taken to be this earth in some molten form because of 2Peter 3, although not all are in agreement on everything involved in what that fire will do during that time period as to whether or not it'll play a significant part in the recreation of the globe for the New Earth state. 

Anyway, after the Lake of Fire is supposed to be the New Heavens and New Earth, yet Revelation 21 and 22 indicate that there are still outsiders that the Spirit and the New Jerusalem are bidding to come and to take of the water of life freely, which to me indicates ongoing evangelism.  And this grows to the point where all of the promises of 1Corinthians 15 are fulfilled in that all that died in Adam are made alive in Christ.  Whether a thousand years into that, or in some other future eon that we're not given a specific sense of a calendar about, then Christ abdicates according to 1Corinthians 15:28.  All things are handed over to the Father, evidently in a sense that they've not been up until now.  On the New Earth, prior to the restoration of all to God, God has moved to this planet completely.  He's evidently here in a way that He wasn't previously.  He fills up the rest of the demensions of this world on the New Earth that He had not yet taken permanent residence of in this present eon.

The Scriptures seem a little confusing at some points where in Hebrews you've got the heavens and earth being rolled up and put away as an old garment, and yet other indicators like in 2Peter that the new heavens and new earth will be formed out of the old.  This may get over into some weird things with Quantum Mechanics and Superstring theory where if there were life on other planets, this planet may appear to them to have done something similar to what Krypton did in the Superman mythos.  Because Romans 8:21 says that the Creation enters into the liberties of the children of God.  So, although the Scriptures give details that are hard to totally put together as far as in any particular ordering of the events, the Scriptures seem to favor that the New Earth will be this earth purified by fire.  We just don't know the full impact to this planet, from the perspective of an observer in some other part of the universe, of God moving all of His stuff to this planet.  The Scriptures indicate that it'll be catastrophic, although in a really good way.

[Craig]

What about viewing the bible as a story?  It has the same beginning, middle, and end, regardless of when?

Amie

Yes, that is what I meant. :)

[joyful1]

Martin --
I studied the "time lines" of most of the men you mentioned for a total of about 20 years--but could not reconcile many verses that took on new meanings for me once I came to the knowledge of UR/US.

Constant "prophecies" or "near-prophecies" came and went for years as many within the church tried to interpret "end times." And so, because of all the confusion, I left behind the "left behind" explanations of the church altogether and focused on what I felt God was doing to me personally to change me, period. I've renewed my interest recently because of the recent discoveries in science, law, medicine and history.

Have you ever considered looking at prophecy for the "end times" as being BOTH an outward AND an inward scenario? Some verses seem to make more sense that way. I'll give you an example:

You noted that at the end of Revelation (the Revelation of Jesus Christ) we see sinners outside of the New Jerusalem. If you looked at the city as the union of all who are IN CHRIST then the "light inside the city" is simply the essence/truth/presence of God...the gates are open for those inside to go "in AND out" (*to minister to those outside?) and those that are outside do not enter in (*yet?) because they don't want to draw close to the light since their deeds are evil. (*have not repented ) Do you see what I mean? This is already going on right now, in time, but on a spiritual level. Yet there could/should be a physical/literal fulfilment yet future that we will recognize soon or at the time of the event.

Prophetic verses that appear to be 'cryptically' written now may indicate a spiritual side to the entire "is,was,will be" application. Clearly there ARE secrets of the Kingdom, for Christ told us that there are....and Daniel said that in the last days 'the wise will understand.' So, like the parables, as we enter into Christ and He enters into us, our understanding will increase. So, if you look at the 'last days' as BOTH a spiritual term (the last days of a believer before the Revelation of Christ happens to them, the wars being the struggles that go on inside of us) AND a physical one with a future fulfilment for the world....it seems to get a little closer to the truth for me....but do you see that too? (*raise your hand if you are still learning, mines up!)

Since we've seen a return to the early church's belief in UR/US I expect a better interpretation to come forward. Like Paul said above, a time line that makes sense would be helpful, and especially one that jives with Tent Maker's beliefs!
:JCThink:
Joyce :)

[WhiteWings]

You noted that at the end of Revelation (the Revelation of Jesus Christ) we see sinners outside of the New Jerusalem. If you looked at the city as the union of all who are IN CHRIST then the "light inside the city" is simply the essence/truth/presence of God...the gates are open for those inside to go "in AND out"

Is it far from the truth to say that New Jerusalem=Heaven and outside the city walls=hell ?
If yes then that debunks the Lazarus and richmen story that there is no crossing the 'great gulf'=city walls.

"...no more tears..."
So lets assume outside is real fire and real torment. The ones that live inside can go outside and won't get hurt by the flames.
They have no more tears so I guess they just go out for some sight-seeing of family members being roasted.
Maybe Jesus is the tourguide.
On your left you see gays taking a nice hot lava bath.
A bit further on the right you see woman being impaled for eternity because they liked sex during life we thought let them enjoy sex in the afterlife. Just like with the gays don't be misled by their tears. They are no tears of despair but of joy :thumbsup:

Yep. It all makes sense now.... :bgdance:

[WhiteWings]

Since we've seen a return to the early church's belief in UR/US I expect a better interpretation to come forward. Like Paul said above, a time line that makes sense would be helpful, and especially one that jives with Tent Maker's beliefs!

Surely there are timelines of varying quality. But are there really ET and UR timelines?
The way I see it the timelines are 99.9% the same.
The remaining 0.1% is one extra line that shows people coming out of the lake of fire.



I'm a real collector; saving everything to my harddisks.
Currently I'm downloading and organizing timelines is a more usable format than slow loading websites.
If there is any intrest I could upload my compiled times for other to download.
They are in no way editted by me. Just made more userfriendly (imo)
Links to good sites are very welcome too....

[joyful1]

You noted that at the end of Revelation (the Revelation of Jesus Christ) we see sinners outside of the New Jerusalem. If you looked at the city as the union of all who are IN CHRIST then the "light inside the city" is simply the essence/truth/presence of God...the gates are open for those inside to go "in AND out"

Is it far from the truth to say that New Jerusalem=Heaven and outside the city walls=hell ?
If yes then that debunks the Lazarus and richmen story that there is no crossing the 'great gulf'=city walls.

actually, wabbit, there are things that ARE IMPOSSIBLE with man, yet possible WITH GOD....when their "change" comes, then new possibilities open up. Perhaps Jesus was trying to get those with ears to hear, to think about the possibility of the rich man asking Jesus for water, instead of a man. In Revelation, at the end, the water of life is available to ALL who thirst....its free for the asking! Just my way of thinking about that. :)

"...no more tears..."
So lets assume outside is real fire and real torment.

But I don't see that in the passage that you are referring to....just that those that are "without the gates" are still fearful, murderers, etc. They would be causing their own torment (*at THAT moment in time) by continuing to be slaves to their carnal natures.  :)

The ones that live inside can go outside and won't get hurt by the flames.

Having "one like unto the Son of Man" next to you in the fire does have its benefits! Since we "will be like Him" at that point, however, I think that this would give us the ability to minister to others in the flame. I believe, that in fact we are part of that flame (one with the Father and the Son) so that the purifying truth of the Word cleanses them...

John 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

...and at the same time, they can endure better having someone go through the experience with them that can encourage them to be strong and "endure till the end,"...somewhat like Jesus in the furnance WITH the Hebrew children.
Just my thoughts!
Joyce :)

[Amie]

But are there really ET and UR timelines?

Yes - the fulfilled model:  http://www.spfarm.com/wp/?p=32  (If you click on the image, it will enlarge for you)

There are a couple of words that you might google to learn more:  "Transmillennial View" and/or "Pantelism". 

Amie

[martincisneros]

Martin --
I studied the "time lines" of most of the men you mentioned for a total of about 20 years--but could not reconcile many verses that took on new meanings for me once I came to the knowledge of UR/US.

Constant "prophecies" or "near-prophecies" came and went for years as many within the church tried to interpret "end times." And so, because of all the confusion, I left behind the "left behind" explanations of the church altogether and focused on what I felt God was doing to me personally to change me, period...

Ditto.  And though I know and can teach the premillenial view, which is what far too many Universalists still believe, I'm personally a postmillenialist.  So, I'm looking at "Church Triumphant" in Scripture more than for the second coming, which I personally don't believe can happen until after the millenium.  Revelation 19 to me is just a vision of what's happening in heaven, and reflects a massive outpouring of the Holy Spirit; the motherload actually anticipated by Joel's prophecy: "upon all flesh!"  Revelation 21 says "now is the tabernacle of God (i.e. Jesus) with men."  To me, that's the Second Coming, if you prefer that trite theological phrase that's an oversimplification (ignoring!) of all of the Lord's comings to us in Scripture that culminate in the tabernacle of God being with men in Revelation 21, which is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Acts 1.

Have you ever considered looking at prophecy for the "end times" as being BOTH an outward AND an inward scenario?

Yup!  I read the entire New Testament from the perspective of the overcomers and the finished work of Christ.

You noted that at the end of Revelation (the Revelation of Jesus Christ) we see sinners outside of the New Jerusalem. If you looked at the city as the union of all who are IN CHRIST then the "light inside the city" is simply the essence/truth/presence of God...the gates are open for those inside to go "in AND out" (*to minister to those outside?) and those that are outside do not enter in (*yet?) because they don't want to draw close to the light since their deeds are evil. (*have not repented ) Do you see what I mean? This is already going on right now, in time, but on a spiritual level. Yet there could/should be a physical/literal fulfilment yet future that we will recognize soon or at the time of the event.

Yup!

Prophetic verses that appear to be 'cryptically' written now may indicate a spiritual side to the entire "is,was,will be" application. Clearly there ARE secrets of the Kingdom, for Christ told us that there are....and Daniel said that in the last days 'the wise will understand.' So, like the parables, as we enter into Christ and He enters into us, our understanding will increase. So, if you look at the 'last days' as BOTH a spiritual term (the last days of a believer before the Revelation of Christ happens to them, the wars being the struggles that go on inside of us) AND a physical one with a future fulfilment for the world....it seems to get a little closer to the truth for me....but do you see that too?

Yup!

Since we've seen a return to the early church's belief in UR/US I expect a better interpretation to come forward. Like Paul said above, a time line that makes sense would be helpful, and especially one that jives with Tentmaker's beliefs!

I found out from Rick Spencer a few weeks ago that Gary had been working on a new series of articles on eschatology.  So, I asked Gary about it when I talked with him on the phone a couple of weeks ago.  Gary indicated that the articles weren't finished yet.  I got the feeling that though we might have a pretty strong parting of ways on individual details that as far as a really rough outline of general principles would be concerned that he and I are pretty close to being on the same page when it would come to highlights.  What I mean by that is a partial preterist, yet still a belief in futurist interpretations of some prophecies.  And though he didn't say too much about this, I sorta got the feeling that we were essentially pretty close to being on the same page about postmillenialism.  He'd rejected the teaching of the rapture, probably a decade or more before I knew it was safe to do so without being struck by lightning :laughing7:  And he does believe in a very very glorious future of the Church prior to the Lord's return, which is sorta side-stepped by the premillenial and amillenial views on the levels that we'd envision of the Holy Spirit's work through the Church.  Any doubts about that would probably be easily resolved by seeing his video "Christ's Body Assembled" on the main Tentmaker website's videos page.  It's about an hour and a half video, so unless you've got a really great broadband connection, I'd recommend downloading it to your harddrive (or ordering a DVD copy from the resources page) before trying to see it. 

I think that Gary might still lean towards a bit of a dwindling of some of the mega-Church phenomenon, and that's where there's zero agreement between us.  Because every single nation is going to embrace the Lordship of Jesus in the near future.  It's going to take all of it to disciple the nations: the home fellowships, the small Churches, fellowships that meet at restaurants, the discussion boards scene, the instant messages scene, etc., etc., etc., as well as the indepth teaching seminars by the conference speakers that may involve some massive, massive crowds never before seen even in today's mass evangelism crusades.  Holographic imagery is going to be used in satellite churches by pastors, teachers, and prophets teaching and mentoring larger crowds than are in the buildings immediately being used by them, etc.  It's going to take absolutely all of it when you're talking about 6 - 10 billion [or more] people, assuming anybody's "census" is remotely, remotely accurate.  (We've multiplied like cockroaches, to be perfectly honest!  I can't believe that we're less than 10 billion on this planet 'cause who's really counting every tribe, prisoner, orphanage, and homeless person with all of these censuses??)  Individual phone calls, conference calls, text messaging by phone, instant messaging by computer, discussion boards, home fellowships, mega-fellowships, etc.  The trap is in trying to say that any one of those are automatically more fruitful than the other types of fellowship, sharing, teaching, and discipleship.  All of it fits all of the personality types that there are out there, from the types of ministries that there are to the types of people that there are to be ministered to; those that are more comfortable in small fellowships, and those that feel more comfortable being lost in the crowd because of the element of an inherent anonymity to that, that in different contexts and for different reasons probably all of us have enjoyed at one time or another.



One of the reasons I have to believe that the book of Revelation still has a futurist interpretation, and/or something else very precious to give that it's not yet given us is because I've had a very strong travail in my spirit over that book for months and months.  I keep casting down every imagination and casting every care upon the Lord again and again and again and again and again, and though that's been fruitful against getting touchy or fretful about it, I can't get this burden off of my chest and stomach about the book of Revelation.  It's like I'm either pregnant with something beyond what I've already said on the book of Revelation board, or like I'm trying to birth the rest of what's been a fragmentary interpretation that I've shared so far.  I go to the book of Revelation board several times a day feeling like I'm finally going to spew something else from some other demension and it's like I'm still constipated with it and can't say anything.  I need the development of it to finish so that I can finally have the water break on this one and let me finally see what's been my constant agony for all of these months.  Keep me in your prayers about God showing me the rest of it 'cause I'm committed to not giving it a further thought until it materializes.  After I've posted this, I'm going to again be reaffirming that all of my cares are cast upon Him and refusing this to my thought life, since my own thoughts mean absolutely nothing about anything that I ever share.  I refuse to think about this.  All of my cares are cast upon Him and I thank God that He's exalting me in due time because I've cast all of my cares upon Him so He can care for me in this situation (2Corinthians 10:3-6; Philippians 4:4-9; 1Peter 5:6-7).  Though it'll be out of sight, out of mind, and out of my emotions until this thing finally starts to totally come out, it's still a freakin' anvil on my chest and stomach that I can't explain to anyone that's not been there with a Word just barely beyond the tip of their tongue.

[WhiteWings]

What about the view that one of the signs of the endtime is that calendars (are forced to) switch back to 360 days a year?

[Amie]

The Gregorian calendar, the one we use today, came to us by way of Babylonia, Palestine, and Rome. The old Roman calendar was notbased accurately on the movements of the heavenly bodies. The result was a continuous shifting of the seasons. By the time of JuliusCaesar, reform was imperative. Julius Caesar called an Alexandrian astronomer and mathematician, Sosigines, to analyze the Romancalendar and recommend necessary changes. As a result, the calendar was changed in the year 46 B.C., (46 years before Christ). Theorder of the days of the week was not changed. The new calendar was called the Julian calendar, in honor of Julius Caesar. The month ofJuly was named in honor of Julius also.

From "A History of the Calendar Change":  http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:8ZL7ps1Xae8J:www.nekp.com/Documents/Bible_Studies/History_of_the_Calendar_Change.PDF+original+calendar+changed&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us

I didn't have time to double check the accuracy -- but I know that we already do not have the same calendar as always.

Amie

[WhiteWings]

Amie,

Was that a reply to my last post? If so below what I was meaning to say:

Revelation 13:5  The beast was allowed to brag and claim to be God, and for forty-two months it was allowed to rule.
Revelation 11:2  ....  and they will trample all over the holy city for forty-two months.
1260 days = 42*30

Revelation 12:6  .... There she would be taken care of for one thousand two hundred sixty days.
Revelation 11:3  My two witnesses will wear sackcloth, while I let them preach for one thousand two hundred sixty days.
1260 days = 1260 days

Revelation 12:14  .... There she would escape from the snake and be taken care of for a time, two times, and half a time.
1260 days = 3½ years

Matthew 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:37  When the Son of Man appears, things will be just as they were when Noah lived.

Then ofcourse there is also the story of the sun set 10 steps/degrees back. (matches the extra days)

[True Believer]

Martin,

One of the reasons I have to believe that the book of Revelation still has a futurist interpretation, and/or something else very precious to give that it's not yet given us is because I've had a very strong travail in my spirit over that book for months and months.

One thing that seems to be complicating the timeline of Revelation is what appears to be a possible pattern of double fulfillment in which a shadow millennium occurred during the almost exact 1000-year existence of the Holy Roman Empire, and a future Millennium of Peace (i.e. the 1000-year Day of the Lord) is yet to occur.  Perhaps we are dealing with another instance of type and antitype, or perhaps a fractal in which prophecy describes self-similar patterns of events at different levels of scale and materiality/spirituality.

It's like I'm either pregnant with something beyond what I've already said on the book of Revelation board, or like I'm trying to birth the rest of what's been a fragmentary interpretation that I've shared so far.

I don't know if this helps, but I know being pregnant with undelivered material can be frustrating.

[Paul]

I dunno if this has any relavence, but I heard that this passage

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:5)

It's spurious. We're not sure if it's genuine.

http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious.htm

[Amie]

WhiteWings,

The calendar has already been changed - though I am not in support of such being a "sign of the end" anyhow.  For example:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

What days?  The days of the great affliction as in the verse just previous this one.  That means that it might have lasted three days instead of two.  Those days btw, were days which would lead to the end marked by the destruction of the temple.  The chapter starts out with Jesus saying that the temple would topple and the disciples, understanding what that meant, asked when that end would come about.  Jesus described the days leading up to that end - the fall of the temple.

Matthew 24:37 When the Son of Man appears, things will be just as they were when Noah lived.

And in the days of Noah it was the wicked laboring the field being "taken away".  The one "left behind" was Noah :-).

Amie

[joyful1]

well...Martin....you sure have a way with words!  :umnick:

[WhiteWings]

WhiteWings,

The calendar has already been changed - though I am not in support of such being a "sign of the end" anyhow.  For example:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

What days?  The days of the great affliction as in the verse just previous this one.  That means that it might have lasted three days instead of two.  Those days btw, were days which would lead to the end marked by the destruction of the temple.  The chapter starts out with Jesus saying that the temple would topple and the disciples, understanding what that meant, asked when that end would come about.  Jesus described the days leading up to that end - the fall of the temple.

Matthew 24:37 When the Son of Man appears, things will be just as they were when Noah lived.

And in the days of Noah it was the wicked laboring the field being "taken away".  The one "left behind" was Noah :-).

I'm well aware we don't have a 360 day calendar today  :laughing7:
But revelation writes about a 360 day calendar. Just ignore that fact?
"days like Noach" can also mean 360-day year like in the days of Noach.
I'm not claiming I know exactly what those verses mean. But I demand, for myself, that I only draw a conlusion when all relavant verses can be aligned. No selective picking to fit my own believes or make it easy.
I prefer to never understand (parts of) the Bible over drawing a 'selective conclusion'.

[Amie]

WhiteWings,

I appreciate your approach.  For example, the following information within that chapter describes exactly what it meant by "as in the days of Noah":

Mat 24:38  For as they were in the days before the flood: eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah went into the ark.
Mat 24:39  And they did not know until the flood came and took all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:40  At that time two will be out in the field; the one is taken away, and the one is left;
Mat 24:41  two grinding at the mill; one is taken away, and one is left.

Just like they were in the days of Noah - not expecting to be deluged - they would be caught off guard again at the parousia of Jesus - not expecting the seige on the city and end of the world in which they lived. 

Revelation is a highly symbolic book, I would definitely research things thoroughly before jumping to conclusions.  Is this taking this thread off track?

Amie

[WhiteWings]

Amie,

I see what you mean.
Maybe I'm breaking my own rules now but how to read 'days of Noach?

1] Like you mentioned about evil and Noach + family the only survivors.
2] Like I mentioned 360 day year.
3] Both

For me all are possible if you have reasoning to backup your choice.
Let me have a stab at point 3

360-day years need no explanation.
Your point is exactly what will happen if I understand the Bible correctly.
Noach was saved because he and his family where the only believers on earth.
At revelation it's not Noachs family but Christ family that gets saved.
All others go into the grave until resurrection (after 1000 years)

Revelation is a highly symbolic book, I would definitely research things thoroughly before jumping to conclusions.

I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm exploring conclusions....  :happygrin:
Revelation might be a symbolic book but I always prefer staring to take things literal. And take that as a starting point for exploring other interpretations. But only if I can find logical explanations for stepping of the literal path. I'm not accusing you of it but taking things non literal can be a dangerous path to build your own doctrine....
For example the days of Noach mean all industrialization will be gone and we all cook on a campfire and live a s long as Noach did...
So I stick to my opinion I won't discard 'difficult' verses. But there has to be a 'cut off point.
Where? That's a grey area that can be discussed for as long as we live  :2c:

[reFORMer]

The Scripture, rather than a means to worldly wisdom or wisdom concerning man, is a sort of fulcrum the Spirit uses to pry us loose from the world, the flesh and the devil and elevate us into God's presence.

There has always been access to God.  But Jesus, as a man, overcame everything destroying man and entered into the glory of God.  He's the Forerunner and Captain of our Salvation.  He has permanently opened a door into complete victory.  Being Himself the way into God, He is the way into the manifestation of that victory...and He is in us.  This changes things.  Nothing of that complete Salvation for spirit, soul and body is distant for the wise and holy believers.  It is already begun in those born of the Spirit.

This means for some whose eyes are opened the words of Revelation are less and less about something postponed and increasingly about something present becoming unveiled, and we are part of that something.  So a lot of what some propose to be this thing happening before that thing can happen followed by some other thing, is actually all of it realized inside of us all at once in conjunction with it becoming ready to be revealed in the physical realm.  It's not about an order of events but rather the forming and showing off of the many membered One born of Him.  The sequences are developing identity.  Understand, God's purpose is to have Christ fully formed in us which means a people conformed to the image and likeness of God.  Then He will cause that image to enter glory and inherit all things.  The beginning words, the very name of the last book is the fact it isn't about someone coming from someplace else, but rather the "revelation" of something already here.


your brother, James Rohde