Dimensional Thinking . . . Clearing the Air

[Nathan]

Due to the direction of the thread called "explain this" I thought best to just start a new thread on this other direction.  There has been much misunderstanding in my explanations and even in trying to explain the explanations, things were still taken out of the context from which they were originally intended.  I have tried twice to send a pm directly and both times I experience technical issues that disrupted the process.  So I now have two options, one is to walk away . .the other is to lay it all out . . .I'm going with the latter.  if you're able to read this, it means that you're supposed to.

Let me first start by saying, in no way do I intend on writing hidden inuendos, nor do I expect every person to be on board.  Roy, this was originally between you and I, so if it's all right, that's what I'm primarily going to be addressing.  I believe you were being genuine in your questioning and I want to honor that.  If I have offended you, I truly apoligize, there was never any intent to do so.  Having said that, I would like to address your last response to me and go from there.

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Quote from: Nathan on August 28, 2008, 04:00:37 PM
1 . . .never did I say I cornered the market on understanding all things . . . so if things I say are not clear, chances are it's because I didn't share them clearly . . . I started out by saying "I don't know how to put this . . ."  Notice that?  The whole point to that line of questioning was stemming from how often it sounds like people fall back on their religious backgrounds.  And yes, the nitpicking thing was in the same time frame and I don't know that your apology to Taf came out yet . . .not that it matters, I'm not trying to pin you on anything here . . .it was just a question trying to test the waters a bit about the idea as to how much law was still out there . . .thus the question about giving a guy a beer . . .obviously, there is no issue in this arena.

2.  The comments about what transpired in church are related in the sense that no matter how long one is in the kingdom perspectives, one still has boundaries based on personal standards.  When other's cross those boundaries, law manifests in us and we try to "correct" the other person to come back into our standards . . that was what happened with those reacting negatively to the choice of wording I used.  It was quickly evident there still are areas where freedom had not yet been let in.

3.  The issues that continue to rise up on this forum, people want proof . .biblical proof that what is being seen has already been written.  My response is . .what is faith?  Is it not beleiving in what you don't understand and accepting what you can not see?  But people fall back on the "written" passages where it talks about testing spirits and reproofing with the Word . .so that nobody trusts anyone . . and the ability to see things that are beneath become a struggle to all because you just can't prove it scripturally . . at times I do throw passages out, but it's not the passage that's the issue, it's the recipient of what's being said.  People have already drawn their conclusions, and if they think I'm a nutcase .  . then no matter whether I quote or not quote, they still choose not to recieve.

Then I went to Molly who posed the question about the husband stuck in porno . . .

Does any of this help?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Roy Wrote:

Brother Nathan

Are you sure you and I are in the same world?

1.....I never said anything about you cornering the market.

2.....In what way did I fall back on my religious background? My father and mother were Catholic and not very good ones. My background, in my opinion, was based on good solid social etiquette in all areas of social behaviour including appropriate discipline, and though I didn't like it at the time, I am now regretting that it's gone out of fashion. Just my opinion.  

3.....In what way do I fall back on the OT law? I am fully aware of the fact that, that has been done away with. But we are under a new law, the law of Christ, the law of liberty and it is an enlargement of and not a reduction of the old law of commandments. Faith has a lot to do with it but we can't throw the commandments out the window. It is called the law of liberty but we can't take liberties with it and do as we please, we do have to obey them and the written word in the Bible tells us how.

4.....You give me to understand that I haven't apologized to Taffy. I agree Taffy corrected me in connection with the context of that Scripture I quoted, and I accepted his correction, but there is another aspect to that verse. We cannot always take the Scriptures in context, context, context which is literal. There is a spiritual side to it to be considered in view of the subject in hand with regard to the two words honour and respect. But, I accept that it is not for me to judge, the capitalization is my option and not necessarily yours, this I termed nitpicking. Let's not forget that the Bible, all of it, is signified, in symbols, parables and literal.

5......Are you suggesting that we should not rely on the Bible teachings, such as, testing of spirits; knowing them by their fruits etc.etc? If so, then what's the point of the Bible, let's throw it through the window and be done. Why waste our time, faith and grace will increase and cover us as our transgressions increase. Eat, drink and make merry we're covered, like the  Babylonian Pentecostals "Once saved always saved."

Keep things simple brother, I'm a very simple minded person. "Lord the ocean is such an enormous span of water, and this boat I'm in is so very, very small."

Peace!

Okay, I've gone over both of these posts again and again.  Enough to where I think I can actually realign some stuff so that we can at least have an understanding . . .we may still be at different places . .but I'm cool with that.  I in no way condemn you, despise or feel that you are ignorant, blind, or contentious.  I have absolutely nothing but respect for you.  And if we don't agree, I can also respect that as well.  So . .here goes . . .

1.....I never said anything about you cornering the market.
That threw me a bit as I didn't realize I had accused you of anything.  And in rereading my comment, what I was trying to say was . . .if you don't understand my way of wording things . . .it's probably because I worded them wrong . that's all I was trying to say with that.  There was no ill-conceived thoughts against you, I was just saying, I'm still in process, don't know all there is to know and I know I don't know it.  So when I do try to explain things . . .it may not be all that clear to some because  . . .I don't know it all.

2.....In what way did I fall back on my religious background?
What I meant by that was . . .not about your family-history-religious-background . .but about how we were taught to read the Bible when we were still in our religious churches.  In my eyes, my religious back-ground taught me that the literal understanding of Scripture is where life must be derived from.  There are those who adamantly still claim that now and again, no condemnation, I'm just not in that place any longer.  I don't feel that way as much as I feel now that it is the Spirit that illuminates the Word . . .truth does not come by knowledge, but by revelation through relationship.  

Man doesn't live by bread alone . . and to me, the proceeding word of God is, that which the Spirit makes alive in me now.  The written Word is the bread . . .the Spirit is that which illuminates the bread.  I can't live on Bread in the dark . . . it needs to be iluminated by the Spirit . .which means that the Spirit will reveal things that the Bible doesn't necessarily state.  Yes, I did get this from Scripture, I will use that to explain where I'm coming from at the end.

Due to the length of this, I have to divide it up into two posts.

[Nathan]

3.....In what way do I fall back on the OT law? I am fully aware of the fact that, that has been done away with. But we are under a new law, the law of Christ, the law of liberty and it is an enlargement of and not a reduction of the old law of commandments. Faith has a lot to do with it but we can't throw the commandments out the window. It is called the law of liberty but we can't take liberties with it and do as we please, we do have to obey them and the written word in the Bible tells us how.

Now, to me, the first two were simply misunderstandings.  But on this one, especially the last line . . .it's just not where I am or what I see.  If I can not exercise the law of liberty, as you call it, then it's not liberty at all.  It's control.  Grace has set me free from the controls of the law.  And I've heard many feel that "Well, if that's the case, then people are going to just do whatever they want"  I disagree.  Since I've come to a higher awareness of Grace, not once have I felt the desire to pursue worldly pleasure.  And the reason is, it's a revelation of God that brings this greater awareness of Grace . . .and again, revelation only comes through . .relationship. 

The passages I'm sharing here are not to enforce on anyone, but to simply explain why I see what I see.  I did a word-study on law . . .just from Galatians and it won't take long to see the pattern of us being free from what you choose to embrace.  Again, no condemnation, it's just that this is what makes us miles apart from each other in our understanding.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:12
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Galatians 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Galatians 4:5
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Galatians 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Galatians 6:13
For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

I feel that when others enforce the written word on to others, they fall into this last verse.  The only reason I'm to prove myself in Scriptures is so that "you" (not you personally Roy, those that are strong supporters of this kind of thinking) will approve of me and that's just not the effective way to be Christ to others.  The Spirit does not require the Word to prove it.  To do so would be to bind the Spirit to the law.

This is really the crux of the matter.  If we can't see that the Spirit has set us free from the bondages of our own laws, then there will never be unity with anyone.  It's like a man in prison condemning others for being free.  But in this sense, it's my own mind that has imprisoned me . . . Only the Spirit can reveal to you this mystery.  It doesn't come by studying the Word . . .look at the Pharisees . . .they knew the Word more than anyone on earth, literally . .  and yet when Jesus came on the scene, they not only didn't recognize him as the Christ (because that only comes by revelation through relationship) but they tried to actually kill him.  It's one thing to disagree, but it's a whole other matter to inflict pain on another just because you disagree.

If we are truly "in" Christ, then we are also "in" love.  And "in" love we can disagree without the rebuking accusations.  Again Roy, this is not directed specifically at you.  I'm sure you can agree with that.

#4 seems to be more of an observation by you than a misunderstanding.  I really have nothing to add to what you've said.


5......Are you suggesting that we should not rely on the Bible teachings, such as, testing of spirits; knowing them by their fruits etc.etc? If so, then what's the point of the Bible, let's throw it through the window and be done. Why waste our time, faith and grace will increase and cover us as our transgressions increase. Eat, drink and make merry we're covered, like the  Babylonian Pentecostals "Once saved always saved."

It feels like you're going to extremes with this scenario.  I've stated this on several other threads but for the record, Here's how "I" see the Bible to be read.

Everything is dimensional.  God is a three dimensional God . ..Father, Son, Holy Spirit.  We, his creation, are three dimensional beings. I am a Spirit . .. that has a soul, that lives in a Body.  We are the temples of the Holy Ghost . . .the temple has also three dimensions outer court, inner court and holy of holies.

The Word of God is no different.  It can be read literally (natural) Morally, and Spiritually.  These three line up perfectly to the tabernacle.  The outer court dealt with the infancy of the Word . . . altar of sacrifice, is me coming to the Lord . . .accepting him into my heart.  The laver is the outward proclamation of the inward baptism of my spirit.  I have received resurrection life.  That part of it . .to me . .is not a process . . .I've been baptized inwardly, my spirit has been resurrected.  The process is in my soul . . .not my spirit  .but that could be for another thread.

David and Goliath, 1st dimension . .there was a giant, there was a teenager with a call on his life.

2nd dimension . . .Moses tabernacle . . .the holy place . .or the inner court, one and the same.  This is where the church is established.  Jesus revealed that to John in Revelation as Jesus was standing "in" the candlestick with the messengers of the seven churches . .seven being the number for completion and fulfillment.  The seven churches represent the corporate church.  Incidentally, as John was seeing this unfold, he to first had to "repent".  He heard a voice . . . he was not lead by the written Word, he was led by the Spirit into the holy place and the "voice" came to him . .but in order to "see" the voice, he had to "turn" around.  If you read it, you'll notice it was specific about John facing the wrong way.  He is a picture of the church . .they are in the 2nd dimension, which is fine, but they are facing away from the "voice" of the Lord . . . I'd have to say it's due to the fact that they are still clinging to the written Word as well.

At any rate, John repented, he turned toward the voice and saw the purpose of the church.  It's not to remain in this realm, but it's to mature the saints to be equipped to enter into the next. 

The second dimension to Scripture is the moral application.  Here's where I believe the split begins.  The church calls what is moral, spiritual.  The moral application to David and Goliath?  We all experience a Goliath in our lives at one point or another . . .we see ourselves out numbered or against the odds, but when we put our trust in the Lord, he gives us strength to win the battle.  And that's great and wonderful, but there's always another battle waiting around the corner.  There's always another action required for you to engage in. 

That was the ministry of the temple.  It was the priests responsibility to maintain the order of God.  They had to keep the fire burning with the incense, keep the bread fresh, keep the oil full  . . . it was all symbolic of the ministries of the church.  Nothing wrong with it  . .but again, it was never intended to be permanent.  It was all for the purpose of leading you into the next level in Christ.

And that brings us to what I've been shouting so much about . .the spiritual piece.  The holy of holies . . it's the thousand year reign with Christ . .that's why we say that it's not about a literal 1,000 years, but it's about a "person".  The dimensions of the holy of holies is 10x10x10.  Ten times ten is one hundred.  One hundred times ten is one thousand.  it's a picture of the holy of holies.  "That's why it's important to let go of the religious up-bringing . . the church never led anyone into the spirit realm, they just set up camp in the ministry level and won't allow anyone to go beyond that.

As for Goliath, David took 5 stones out of the stream . .5 is the number of grace, the stream is a picture of the spirit and the stone is Christ.  It penetraits the head of this giant . .which is the mind . .the giant has 6 fingers, 6 toes, the spear he had weighed . . .6 cubics.  it's the number of . .no, not the mark of the beast, the mark of the beast and Goliath are one and the same . .it's the carnal man . .the ego of my mind.  The stone penetrated the mind . . .the giant could no longer stand, he collapsed in a heap on the earth . . .but that wasn't enough . .the head had to be separated.  All through Scripture there is picture after picture of the head being removed.  Jacob never would have seen the ladder from heaven had he not first laid his head upon the "stone".  John the baptist, the picture of us, the fore-runner of Christ had his head removed . . .we've got to remove our minds from the equasion at the conception of truth.

Your woman will be presented to you again, once she's removed from you, so that she can submit "to" you through which reproduction comes.  The crown Jesus took, was so that the curse . . .remember the curse?  Galatians talked about it . . .the embracing of the law .  . . Jesus took that law, that curse upon himself.  I don't mean the law itself was originally a curse . . .the carnal mind turned it into that . .and the crown of thorns represented that . . .and instead of a crown of thorns . .we have been given a crown of gold . . . and if you walk in the spirit, you get the crown . .if you walk by your own reasoning, you're still walking by the curse of your own mind.  Again, Roy, I don't mean "you" personally.


This is where I'm coming from.

[Craig]

Now the dilemma, because one cannot reason that which is not true, and at the same time one can not neglect reason which contradicts what one believes to be true. Since the Truth is objective and not subjective to our reasons, that must mean there are reasons which support the Truth which we must obey. This isn't an issue of binding or condemnation is it knowing and affirming what is True. Once again, a person can not believe something unreasonable to what is True, therefore there is only two reasons, God and self.  Now how do we know which reasoning we are following? That is simple, God's reasoning contains no fallacy, it is whole and free of defect it is completely true without opposition and therefore discoverable. The mind of a spiritual man, is spiritual. The mind of a carnal man is carnal. The mind has never been the enemy, it is the battleground in which God and self meet.

Therefore, there is no sin that comes from following Christ, as it makes sense to the mind because there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk by the Spirit. A person is able to love God with their entire mind, heart and body and therefore reason to others what the Truth actually is. That means God can be proved, calculated, investigated, assembled and laid out for all mankind to see, and that is by the Law, the Law of Life in Christ Jesus. The mind is not the enemy, it never has been. That is why we are called to renew our mind by the washing of the Word, not be conformed to this world but transformed by newing our mind.

There is also a problem when someone uses the word 'law' in a negative context. The law nowhere is shown to be evil, neither is it to be called sin. Yet, consistently we are told, by those who know the 'spirit', that the law is evil, and sin. It is obvious to me, any time I see this reasoning that they have something to hide in their belief in which they are running from something and that something is condemnation and guilt. Regardless if I am convicted by the Law of God in my life, I am not afraid because God disciplines those whom He loves, if He didn't then I am an illegitimate son. By the way, there is two laws at work, but once again we are not told this, we are led to believe we are free from all law, and we are not.

[Nathan]

I'm only going to do this once . . .just for the heck of it.

Now the dilemma, because one cannot reason that which is not true, and at the same time one can not neglect reason which contradicts what one believes to be true. Since the Truth is objective and not subjective to our reasons, that must mean there are reasons which support the Truth which we must obey.

You state this as if it's a law already that everyone must follow.  What it sounds like you're saying is, because "you" don't understand it, it must not be true because it is out of the limitations of what "you" do understand.  You base your conclusion by doing the opposite of what we're "not" to do and it appears that you're leaning on your own understanding . . ..  I just disagree and you do with me . . . not arguing with that.

Therefore, there is no sin that comes from following Christ, as it makes sense to the mind because there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk by the Spirit. A person is able to love God with their entire mind, heart and body and therefore reason to others what the Truth actually is. That means God can be proved, calculated, investigated, assembled and laid out for all mankind to see, and that is by the Law, the Law of Life in Christ Jesus. 

You choose to live by the written word?  This whole thought appears to be inaccurate.

John 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known

What you are "reasoning" is your perception of who God is . .and with that should also come the fruit of the same . . .Love is the core, Love is the whole.  Love comes into agreement where it can find it, rather than spend all it's resources tearing down another.  Just my opinion of course.  I'm trying not to be cynical but I can't help but feel like the prey of a vulture . .no matter where I go or what I say, you search me out and come in for attack . . . all because "you" feel it's a sham or fake or whatever it is you have against me.  Keeping in mind, this whole thing was originally to Roy.  He was the one asking the honest questions without the sting of rebuke.  No matter . . .

Once again, a person can not believe something unreasonable to what is True, therefore there is only two reasons, God and self.  Now how do we know which reasoning we are following? That is simple, God's reasoning contains no fallacy, it is whole and free of defect it is completely true without opposition and therefore discoverable. The mind of a spiritual man, is spiritual. The mind of a carnal man is carnal. The mind has never been the enemy, it is the battleground in which God and self meet.

If it is impossible for a person to believe something unreasonable to what is True . . . then what's your problem?  Everything I say should be reasonably true by that statement.  If your statement is true . . . then actually, it's giving me a headache because it makes no sense.  I know in your mind it makes total sense . . .but even when you break it down . . .it still makes no sense.  Everyone believes lies . . .that's exactly what you're accusing me of . .so how could you make this statement saying it's impossible to believe a lie? :dontknow:

Therefore, there is no sin that comes from following Christ, as it makes sense to the mind because there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk by the Spirit. A person is able to love God with their entire mind, heart and body and therefore reason to others what the Truth actually is

You sound all shiny and nice, but what this is saying is, you declare self-justification as to why you can point your finger at everyone else and tell them how wrong they are.  'No condemnation?  Give me a religious break.  That's "all" you've been doing with me from the beginning.

That means God can be proved, calculated, investigated, assembled and laid out for all mankind to see, and that is by the Law, the Law of Life in Christ Jesus


You have exposed yourself.  You truly believe you have the monopoly on God . .we are poles apart.  The more I learn of God (which is only what he chooses to reveal) the more I realize the more I need to learn.  This is such an arrogant statement.  Jesus told Peter in the beginning when Peter proclaimed Jesus to be the Messiah "flesh and blood has not taught you this, but ONLY through the revealtion of God. . ."  Must be in the fine print there somewhere . . .God can be proved, calculated . . ASSEMBLED????  Wow.  And you say "I'm" out there.

The mind is not the enemy, it never has been. That is why we are called to renew our mind by the washing of the Word, not be conformed to this world but transformed by newing our mind.

You accuse me of contradicting myself.  On the one hand, you're saying that my mind is not the enemy . . yet on the other hand, you say that it must be renewed . .and transformed??? 

I never said the mind was an enemy anyway.  I said that we're not to be led by it.  When we walk by our minds . .we wind up in winless, train-wreck conversations just like this one.  It becomes a battle between two of God's anointed, and there's no winning here.  But it's the only place where you seem to be the most comfortable.  Many of Jesus arguments with the Pharisees were just like this . . .it wasn't because that's where Jesus wanted to go with it . .it's because that's where the Pharisees set up camp.  They tried to use the Word to trap him all the time, he simply side-stepped them and used the same word to explain the intent of the spirit.  He was not bound by their interpretation, just as you're not bound by mine, and you're not binding me with yours.

There is also a problem when someone uses the word 'law' in a negative context. The law nowhere is shown to be evil, neither is it to be called sin. Yet, consistently we are told, by those who know the 'spirit', that the law is evil, and sin.

Did you not read Galatians?  Paul used it in the same context.  He didn't, nor have I said, that law is evil . . .what I did say was, it was TEMPORARY.  Which you adamantly disagree and that's fine.  Galatians 3:19 is just one of the several passages that says it's purpose was only to be a shadow until the arrival of the substance could come . .which would be Jesus of course . .which was 2,000 years ago . . .so yeah, I'd say it's time to let the law go and walk in the spirit.

Galatians 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Anyone who puts law in a negative light?  Excuse me  . . but it doesn't appear that Paul is putting it in a positive one.  In fact, it was the Galatians that Paul asked about who bewitched them . .because he introduced them into the spirit of life and they reverted back to living in law.  No, law in and of itself isn't a bad thing . .the problem comes when you embrace something that is no longer in effect.

It is obvious to me, any time I see this reasoning that they have something to hide in their belief in which they are running from something and that something is condemnation and guilt  So much for no condemnation . .not to mention judgment.

Regardless if I am convicted by the Law of God in my life, I am not afraid because God disciplines those whom He loves, if He didn't then I am an illegitimate son. By the way, there is two laws at work, but once again we are not told this, we are led to believe we are free from all law, and we are not.

Your deductions are astounding.  Your humility is beyond words. 

Romans 3
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

You have been hard on me these last few days.  You have not been easy to deal with.  I've tried several different approaches and yet you still choose to abraisively  confront even though I have never purposefully deserved it, I have taken your rudeness.  I doubt it's going to stop now . .but I challenge you  .. .if you truly believe you are manifesting the righteousness of God . . .then check out verse 21 there, because what you have been doing is not what that is declaring.  The righteousness of God manifests through us when we stop pointing out the failures of others.

I'm sure I've stirred up a bees nest with you, but you had hornets flying around long before now.  This was originally intended for Roy.  I have no hard-feelings toward you personally, it's clear we are not in agreement with pretty much everything but that's simply due to the fact that we are coming from two totally different points of origin. 

The whole key here . . .you overlooked by your attack . . is the passages in Galatians that speak of the fact that law was temporary until Faith came on the scene.  There is no grace for those who live by their law.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

So, even after your counter against me, I remain where I was.  I choose to continue to walk in the spirit.  And for that reason, I am not going to respond to your responses from here on out . . . all they end up being is a sword fight that you think you always win.  There's just no life to come out of this.  I did this, this one time for those who avoid saying anything on the forum out of fear of coming under your condemnation should "they" say anything that would ignite your torch, so "they" could at least get an idea of what I see and why.

Blessings to all.

[Craig]

You have been hard on me these last few days.  You have not been easy to deal with.  I've tried several different approaches and yet you still choose to abraisively  confront even though I have never purposefully deserved it, I have taken your rudeness.

Yes, because I did tell you, you will face the consequences of making any discussion or disagreement about the things of God, personal against anyone. This is not personal to you, this is what happens to everyone who have failed to provide reason for their disagreement, and consistently fall on fallacy to persuade.

The Truth is not built on fallacy, it is discovered through experience and reason. It doesn't matter how a person feels about something, the emotion is not the reason to disagree, it is the reasons which evoke that emotion which is reason to disagree. It doesn't matter how much a person disagrees with a person, it is not the person that matters but the reasons why the person disagrees which matter. It is not the person, or emotion, but reason which must be addressed when there is a disagreement. A hard lesson for everyone to learn, regardless if they have been in the ministry or not.

After three years of dealing with this issue on Tentmaker Forums, I originally started out with honey but quickly found all that did was some how make the problem worse. It is not that I am being rude or abrasive, just I no longer am accommodating to fallacy to defend the truth. I agree with you on somethings, and somethings I do not; however because I do not agree with you is no reason to say that I have,  "fallen back to the law", "relied on religious background', have "Western traditional thinking" and so forth. You will never win when you make things personal and this is a hard lesson for most people to endure. I too have many years in ministry, as well as my father before me. I am no stranger to what is 'religious', 'lawful', 'traditional' and I will not tolerate people using these as excuses of why someone is not in agreement with you.

I will reply to the rest later.

[Nathan]

if you truly believe you are manifesting the righteousness of God . . .then check out verse 21 there, because what you have been doing is not what that is declaring.  The righteousness of God manifests through us when we stop pointing out the failures of others.


You have proven the point.

[Craig]

if you truly believe you are manifesting the righteousness of God . . .then check out verse 21 there, because what you have been doing is not what that is declaring.  The righteousness of God manifests through us when we stop pointing out the failures of others.


You have proven the point.

The question posed to you is when have you stopped pointing out the failures of others since you got here?

It is situations like this, "I need no defense," yet the next four pages of thread is you defending yourself. There is no 'condemnation' but the next four pages of thread is you condemning people for not seeing through spiritual eyes and being bound by the law. You say no to correction but have continued to 'correct' people saying that they are not seeing it through spiritual eyes, falling back on the law, tending to man's religious ways, etc.

From experience, what I know, is from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, and all you have been doing is talking about the law, and pointing out where the law somehow has bound someone, or that you will not be bound by law. Law law law law law law law everywhere, a little here and a little there but you know what? Since you came here, none of us ever had a problem with being under the law, not that any of us thought we were. It appears to me, you have a law perception problem, you try to be free but don't know how to be since you always fall down, but instead of admitting your failure you blame others for binding you. Others are not the problem. I live complete without guilt or condemnation, at the same time I know when I do wrong and I am open to correction (although some will tell you otherwise, they have short memories).

I am not the only one who has challenged you, but there are a few who you have problems with because we hit something sensitive, and if it didn't matter you would have let it fall off your back a while ago. This is what happens when you make things personal, it always comes back and that is called reaping and sowing, we are not free from that Law.

I will address the rest later.