Another witness, or no?

[arcticmonster2003]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QavlsCL79k8

First one is a heaven near death experience, second one is a hell near death experience.

Honestly, I'm still looking for the near death experience or vision where someone is told by Jesus Christ that there is no hell, as soon as I find one I will post that, I promise.

[martincisneros]

youtube isn't yet a good enough library for that to be how you're researching this.  Here's a link for Near Death Experiences that relate to Christian Universalist theology, since you're needing visions:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen021.html

His stuff's interesting purely from the standpoint of research into Near Death Experiences.  I'm not making judgment calls about his Christianity or lack thereof, or whatever.  Just pointing you in the direction of a researcher on this.

[arcticmonster2003]

Thanks Martin, I checked out the website you mentioned and can't seem to find any NDE's or visions where someone was told there is no hell by Jesus Christ, or by anyone for that matter. I'll keep looking there though, perhaps they are deeper in the site.


edit

Ok, I've looked through that site pretty thouroughly and can't find any NDE's or visions where people said they were told there is no hell by Jesus Christ (or anyone else).

[WhiteWings]

AM perhaps the links below are of any use to you.

http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/_accounts.html
http://www.near-death.com/


http://www.aglimpseofeternity.org/
Video's on YouTube http://au.youtube.com/results?search_query=A+Glimpse+of+Eternity&search_type=&aq=f
To me it gives a total diffrent view as the usual Hell NDEs.
The guy didn't believe. He had a lot of fun with women if you understand what I mean.
When on the border of being dead God spoke to him. God sort of kept pushing him to accept Him (God)
Much different from the usual: Now I get. Yar toast type of stories.

[martincisneros]

The "no Hell" form of UR is a very small, minority point of view among Christian Universalists.  The majority of Christian Universalists believe in Hell.  They just don't believe in ET.  I'm in touch with a few thousand that won't touch an online forum with a ten foot pole and that are leery of "Inclusion Conferences."

BTW: what do you make out of Zechariah 9:11 and Revelation 5:13?

[WhiteWings]

Martin,
My guess is that you also believe in hell.
But the main question is 'what exactly IS hell'
Real fire. Or 10 billion types of people, 10 billion types of hell.
It hard to explain for me but I picture something like:
A KKK member becomes a negro in a KKK dominated world where he forced to serve the KKK people.
And so learn that the 'black animals' as he called them all his life also have human emotions etc.

Can you agree with that type of Hell? Does the Bible hint toward something like that?

[arcticmonster2003]

The "no Hell" form of UR is a very small, minority point of view among Christian Universalists.  The majority of Christian Universalists believe in Hell.  They just don't believe in ET.  I'm in touch with a few thousand that won't touch an online forum with a ten foot pole and that are leery of "Inclusion Conferences."

BTW: what do you make out of Zechariah 9:11 and Revelation 5:13?

While you say that most christian universalists believe in hell, I tend to think, or for some reason I feel, that the hell they do believe in is not the hell spoken about in these testimonies, even if the "eternal" part wasn't there (though the eternal part most certainly is there in the testimonies). Somehow I feel, though perhaps wrongly (though I don't think wrongly), that universalists whom do believe in hell (whom are the majority? I do seriously question that by the way, based on the posts here in response to me), believe in a somewhat "watered down" version.

Perhaps a poll could be started to see if the majority here, though that may not represent all universalism, yet it would represent what one will encounter here in regards to beliefs, a poll to see how many universalists here really believe in even a temporal, horrible, hell. I'm not going to start that poll though.

I'll check out Zechariah 9:11 and Revelation 5:13, if I get a clear understanding on these verses given to me, I will most certainly start a thread on them.

God Bless

[firstborn888]

The "no Hell" form of UR is a very small, minority point of view among Christian Universalists.  The majority of Christian Universalists believe in Hell.  They just don't believe in ET.  I'm in touch with a few thousand that won't touch an online forum with a ten foot pole and that are leery of "Inclusion Conferences."

A few thousand offline? How are you in touch? (curious)

CU's should know better than to use the 'H' word at all since in over 95% (off of the top of my head) of the KJV 'hell' references are simply referring to the grave/sheol.

Nothing is gained by torture. Even the CIA has proven that.

[WhiteWings]

Nothing is gained by torture. Even the CIA has proven that.

Sadam had real fun watching taped tortues (by his sons) on his TV with bag of popcorn in his hands.
The majority of religous people (not only Christians) feel that's normal behavior for God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

It's pretty simple.   


Did they die?  No.   


 

[sparrow]

The "no Hell" form of UR is a very small, minority point of view among Christian Universalists.  The majority of Christian Universalists believe in Hell. 

Can you define the word "hell" in the above quote? I don't know what you're saying until I understand what you mean by "hell".
Thanks.

[arcticmonster2003]

AM perhaps the links below are of any use to you.

http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/_accounts.html
http://www.near-death.com/


http://www.aglimpseofeternity.org/
Video's on YouTube http://au.youtube.com/results?search_query=A+Glimpse+of+Eternity&search_type=&aq=f
To me it gives a total diffrent view as the usual Hell NDEs.
The guy didn't believe. He had a lot of fun with women if you understand what I mean.
When on the border of being dead God spoke to him. God sort of kept pushing him to accept Him (God)
Much different from the usual: Now I get. Yar toast type of stories.

That Glimpse of Eternity was pretty good, though long. Thanks for the link. Is he a witness, or no?

[Craig]

The "no Hell" form of UR is a very small, minority point of view among Christian Universalists.  The majority of Christian Universalists believe in Hell.  They just don't believe in ET.  I'm in touch with a few thousand that won't touch an online forum with a ten foot pole and that are leery of "Inclusion Conferences."

A few thousand offline? How are you in touch? (curious)

I am in touch with a few hundred, it is kinda amazing how many people I know who believe UR who aren't online forums.

CU's should know better than to use the 'H' word at all since in over 95% (off of the top of my head) of the KJV 'hell' references are simply referring to the grave/sheol.

I disagree, I believe it is responsible for CU's to use the "H" word regardless of the references. We need to take back the word to mean grave/sheol, and explain it is not perpetual.

Nothing is gained by torture. Even the CIA has proven that.

Exactly. God would never use torture because He knows exactly what to do to get what He needs.

[firstborn888]

CU's should know better than to use the 'H' word at all since in over 95% (off of the top of my head) of the KJV 'hell' references are simply referring to the grave/sheol.

I disagree, I believe it is responsible for CU's to use the "H" word regardless of the references. We need to take back the word to mean grave/sheol, and explain it is not perpetual.

Really? To me it seems so deeply ingrained in the English language to mean a certain thing (and for so many hundreds of years) that it is a word beyond fixing.

[Craig]

CU's should know better than to use the 'H' word at all since in over 95% (off of the top of my head) of the KJV 'hell' references are simply referring to the grave/sheol.

I disagree, I believe it is responsible for CU's to use the "H" word regardless of the references. We need to take back the word to mean grave/sheol, and explain it is not perpetual.

Really? To me it seems so deeply ingrained in the English language to mean a certain thing (and for so many hundreds of years) that it is a word beyond fixing.

Running away from those words, only makes the issue worse. Hell exists, it just isn't perpetual. Free-Will exists, it just isn't self-determination. It is far easier to communicate the truth this way because they understand what you are talking about.

[firstborn888]

CU's should know better than to use the 'H' word at all since in over 95% (off of the top of my head) of the KJV 'hell' references are simply referring to the grave/sheol.

I disagree, I believe it is responsible for CU's to use the "H" word regardless of the references. We need to take back the word to mean grave/sheol, and explain it is not perpetual.

Really? To me it seems so deeply ingrained in the English language to mean a certain thing (and for so many hundreds of years) that it is a word beyond fixing.

Running away from those words, only makes the issue worse. Hell exists, it just isn't perpetual. Free-Will exists, it just isn't self-determination. It is far easier to communicate the truth this way because they understand what you are talking about.

I still don't see your point because most all ETers think that all the OT KJV 'hell' references mean a fiery place of torment. It's just the wrong word used to describe the wrong thing over and over and over. I don't think abandoning it because of it's faulty usage and meaning amounts to 'running away' from it.

[sparrow]

Hell exists, it just isn't perpetual.

Will you (briefly) give me your definition of "hell"?
thanks,
sparrow
(I'm interested in knowing other's definitions..)

[sparrow]

Really? To me it seems so deeply ingrained in the English language to mean a certain thing (and for so many hundreds of years) that it is a word beyond fixing.

I see it this way, also...

[martincisneros]

A few thousand offline? How are you in touch? (curious)

I'll answer this by PM [as soon as I'm able] 'cause inevitably someone will take me wrong on the boards if I get into too many details about my own ministry.  Someone would inevitably lose the context that I wasn't bragging and whatever else, but was simply answering a question.

[WhiteWings]

That Glimpse of Eternity was pretty good, though long. Thanks for the link. Is he a witness, or no?

I simply don't know AM.
But it sounds so much more like a caring God than the other NDE books/movies.
Here God was practically begging that the man would forgive the cabdriver and the Chinese cardplayers.
Much diffrent than teh other NDEs where God sends a pack of hungry wolves after you (as a figure of speech)
Of course we don't know how this would have turned out if the man wouldn't forgive them that hurt him.

[WhiteWings]

CU's should know better than to use the 'H' word at all since in over 95% (off of the top of my head) of the KJV 'hell' references are simply referring to the grave/sheol.

I disagree, I believe it is responsible for CU's to use the "H" word regardless of the references. We need to take back the word to mean grave/sheol, and explain it is not perpetual.

Really? To me it seems so deeply ingrained in the English language to mean a certain thing (and for so many hundreds of years) that it is a word beyond fixing.

Running away from those words, only makes the issue worse. Hell exists, it just isn't perpetual. Free-Will exists, it just isn't self-determination. It is far easier to communicate the truth this way because they understand what you are talking about.

Isn't part of the problem that different things all are translated as Hell?
So even if Hell gets its 'limited time' meaning back it's still wrong?
Much better; that's for sure.
Besides of that most don't even want to hear. They just follow what their churchleaders say. Jesus was very right saying people are sheep. They keep following their sheppard. And for most that's not Jesus but for example the pope.
Never thought of it that all on this board are the strayed sheep. The one of the hundred.
Or the other way around; 99 of 100 sheep are strayed....

[Craig]

I have had more success in explaining Hell not being perpetual than to change the word to 'grave' and 'sheol'. So whatever you guys think works, go for it, I know what works when I talk about these things to others. They know right away what I am talking about, but you tell them that a person is going to the 'sheol' place the dead to them it is no different than 'Hell' so you are in the same boat, but now you have made it more difficult for yourself.