Was satan right?

[WhiteWings]

Really I don't have horns  :Yeahright:
OTOH I'm born on the 6th June at 6 AM.....  :Chinscratch:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:3-5 (KJV)

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:7 (KJV)

Does that mean knowing you are naked is knowing good and evil?
Does that mean Adam an Eve didn't know about good and evil before eating from the tree?
Then they couldn't have known breaking Gods rule was evil...

Then a thousand pages follow stating some/all (ET/UR) can get eternal life.
So satan was right? I know Adam and Eve died; but that was in the flesh.
The Bible always seems to speak about spiritual death; so that they are dead now is no proof.
If the spiritual side is the aim of the Bible then satan did perform a almost holy act by decieing Eve.
He gave them/humanity a chance for spiritual life.

Enough heresy for now.

[Molly]

Yeah, satan was a big hero, --the light bearer--, bringing knowledge to mankind.

That's why his minions worship him.

He told a half truth, as all good liars do,



5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


And buried in it the big lie--


Ye shall not surely die:


Here, also, is the problem--it is impossible to tell good from evil without Christ.  Man can convince himself that all sorts of things are good--for the greater good, meaning themselves--that are really evil.

Well, wouldn't it be good if there were less people on the planet so we could share resources more equitably?  So then it follows that it is good to kill 90 percent of them, leaving only ourselves alive. 

Well that might be good for you, but not for the rest of us.

Knowledge is a funny thing.  Notice how knowledge is kept hidden from the masses--sorry, that's secret, top secret, beyond top secret--that's why it's called the occult--because like money, knowledge is power.

And, now we see the twist--you can become like gods...especially if the rest of humanity are like animals...

[martincisneros]

If the spiritual side is the aim of the Bible then satan did perform a almost holy act by decieing Eve.
He gave them/humanity a chance for spiritual life.

I don't see how you're Biblically making Satan the hero of that story.  Actually, it was God that gave humanity a promise that things wouldn't always be broken between God and man as a result of that sin.  The life wasn't introduced by the fall, but by the promise of rising from the dead through Jesus Christ.

[WhiteWings]

Martin, I can I assure you I'm not promoting Satan in any way.
The way I read it Satan is the 'hero' of the story against his own will.

I'll try to explain again.
a] The aim of the Bible is to reach Heaven.
b] Adam and Eve would have lived forever if they wouldn't have sinned. (correct?)
c] They would have stayed in the garden forever.
d] Satan decieved them so they died in the flesh.
e] That gave them the chance to enter Heaven.

The life wasn't introduced by the fall, but by the promise of rising from the dead through Jesus Christ.

Ok, but eventually Adam and Eve will be in Heaven also. (?)
But they wouldn't if they haven't sinned.

I hope you understand because I have no idea how to explain it diffrently.

[martincisneros]

I think I understand a little better what you were saying.  Just a few personal observations real quick though:

c] They would have stayed in the garden forever.

Had they, then that would have been their disobedience instead of having eaten whatever they ate 'cause their command from God was also to replenish the whole earth and spread the Garden everywhere, Psalm 8 possibly indicating to the other planets in our solar system as well.  The first "Go into all the world..." commission was in the Garden of Eden.

d] Satan decieved them so they died in the flesh.

God's more interested in our dying to the flesh than a dying of the flesh.  One is just the death of the flesh, while the other is the transformation of the mind and the anchoring of the emotions and soul to the Word of God to where you're seeking your daily needs from His Word rather than through the 5 physical senses being latched onto emotional responses to this world around you and making judgments about health, plenty or lack, war or peace, in every area of your life based upon the information provided by this current world's system.

e] That gave them the chance to enter Heaven...Ok, but eventually Adam and Eve will be in Heaven also. (?)
But they wouldn't if they haven't sinned.

Heaven isn't the goal.  Heaven has been a temporary situation until all of the family has been reunited through the Gospel Commission.  Various Old Tetament passages, 2Peter 3, and Revelation chapters 21 and 22 indicate that this earth will be renovated and will become our home for the coming ages.  Revelation 21 indicates that God will move heaven here.  We're not being purified for heaven, but for a more purified earth with all of it's neighboring planets, it's stars, it's animals, etc.  The sun will even still be around.  I believe that the last couple of chapters of Revelation are simply indicating that we'll have no need of it because of the glory of God shining throughout the earth.  It's like having some hundred+ watt lamps on in your living room, but off in the corner you've got this little bitty night light not only plugged in, but turned on.  If the night light were the only light on, as in the current era with the sun, then it would make an okay reading light if you were close enough.  But when all of the bigger, brighter lights are on in the house, then all that the little night light could possibly do is be in agreement with all of the other lights in the house.

I understand now what you were trying to say.  I've seen WillieH make similar comments about evil being subservient to the purposes of God.

[SeekerSA]

a] The aim of the Bible is to reach Heaven.

I don't agree.  It is more to reveal it within you remember the chorus "Heaven is in my heart?"

b] Adam and Eve would have lived forever if they wouldn't have sinned. (correct?)

Not necessarily.  It is appointed once for man to die and then the judgement.  This can be taken literal and spiritual.  I know later on God gets so peeved He reduces lifespan to 120 years and later again to 3 score and 10.  IMO this could just be adjusting the text to suit questions like "how did Adam live for 900 years and we only 70 years?"

The Genesis account really needs to be read parabolic and not literal.  There is now evidence to suggest Moses was NOT the author or the 1st 5 books

c] They would have stayed in the garden forever.

Well that is open to conjecture.  As they did sin they were kicked out but I believe this was in the plan anyway - remember there was no one to till the ground.

d] Satan deceived them so they died in the flesh.

Well satan gets the blame by Eve - blame shift. Eve gets the blame by Adam in fact blames God for it.  The object lesson in this story is not the fall but rather the uselessness in trying to cover up sin - read the What is sin? and The Curses or Blessings? of Genesis to get a better idea of where I am coming from.

e] That gave them the chance to enter Heaven.

Not sure what you mean here but the garden is supposedly meant to represent paradise hence they were already in a kind of heaven yet as Martin showed there was work to be done, they had to exit paradise to procreate and populate - be fruitful and multiply etc.

Ok, but eventually Adam and Eve will be in Heaven also. (?)
But they wouldn't if they haven't sinned.

Well this is the circular logic problem we sit with.  If one takes Genesis literal then it does not match many things.  Heaven is in us and not a place to aspire to just like hell is not a place to avoid.

One of the things no talks about where are Adam and Eve today?  Well based on popular theology, they should be in hell as they were vessels of dishonor according to Calvinist theology or they chose using their free-will to disobey God hence they are also in hell.  Nowhere are we told that God forgave them but we know He cast them out hence that was their punishment or was it.  If you read the 2nd article I linked you may come away with a different perspective.

The problem you are wrestling with is the age old myth IMO of the original sin.  Well as time moved on even in the OT there are many texts that suggest He does not remember our sin as far as the east is from the west etc.

The traditional teaching also thus suggests that the death of Jesus was an atonement or paid the price in full.  Usually when one is taught these concepts by the time you get to the crucifixion, you are already convinced that you are so despicable in God's eyes that your only hope is by what Jesus supposedly did on the cross.

Where you are at I guess is re looking at the whole concept of the OS.  It does say in Adam we all die and in Christ we are made alive and in the sense it is taught we are led to believe that we are condemned in Adam and only set free of this condemnation in Jesus.  This is true but not in the sense that it is usually put across.

When one looks at the whole history of the OT you see the futility of the Law and that the law was merely a system to govern/manage sin - it did not take sin away.  Likewise we have texts of JTB that say "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" yet we still have sin - Houston we have a problem.

So the Law did not do it, sacrifice and burnt offerings did not do it, it sure looks like Jesus died in vain as sin still exists and the world ain't getting prettier.  So how do we resolve this conundrum? Well not unlike you many have wrestled with this age old question and there is no pat answer other than accept that He died for your sins, thank Him, ask Him into your heart and TRY and lead a Godly life which in reality still does NOT answer the question neither does it stop you from sinning in spite of the fact that you buried your old man in the baptismal bath.  The reality is we are just wet sinners now.

So we have all sins pinned to the cross and that takes care of that and when we now sin we should confess and He will forgive.  See the law coming back?  Although sacrifice has ceased there is still the notion that we are still Adam and not Christlike hence it is the back in your face all the time of the OS of Adam.  This will drive you nuts trying to understand it in the traditional sense.

The truth of the matter is that sin is really no biggie for God, it does not make Him Love us any less.  I believe what distresses him the most is when we take our focus off His Grace and Mercy and focus on our shortcomings.  That is the eating/dwelling on the wrong tree I talk of.  In the OT times, the sin sacrifice did not make the sin go away, it merely was a system to deal with the guilt aspect.  All that the system now has managed to do is take the guilt aspect and defer it to the cross hoping in some way that this takes care of the problem.  Sacrifice and offerings were never in God's plan not even the supposed sacrifice of Jesus.

What I share seems radical but I believe it addresses the age old question and I believe it was given through intensive study and meditation.

We sin a chorus "Nothing can separate us from the Love of God" well do you believe it?

Well if sin was a biggie then it stands to reason then that the scrip in the book that makes that claim is false and should thus be ignored.

Religion (read:law) and sin go hand in hand and feed off each other.

Why did Paul say "we are free from the law of sin and death?"  He understood that Jesus came to help us take the focus off the law and sin focus cycle and get the focus where it belongs, on the Father.  The system then was no different to what we have today.  Today they take you back into the law of Moses to accuse you of your sin and then entrap you with a pay-back mindset that suggests you need to DooRight to please God and the DooRight's of this world are sooo far from the Father that it is unreal - why?  It is because they are doing exactly what Adam did, taking matters into their own hands, making aprons of fig leaves, trying to get the flesh to conform yet ignoring that "flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God".  Thus folk continue to beat themselves up as the system has convinced them how unworthy they are of God's Love and only by the blood of Jesus are we even remotely - scarcely - able to enter into the presence of the Father.

Now picture this.  In the natural, you have an older brother.  Only your father hates all his children barring this brother so everytime you screw up you have to fin big bro and you go to your father cowering behind your big bro who then pleads your case before your father.  The father forgives your screw up until the next time.  Is this more or less the pic that Xianity portrays of the Father?  Well seem ridiculous no?  How are we then to assume that our Heavenly Father is less than an earthly Father.  Unless you had an ogre for a natural father the concept of love and forgiveness is ridiculous.  Well is that the general message the bible teaches? No!

If we fess up He is faithful and just to forgive us - that sounds like an earthly father too - read the Prodigal son the story is representative of the Father and notice He loves BOTH sons equally in spite of the obvious differences.

The main problem is that the system purports the same lies and myths that have been taught for millennia thanks to their pagan hell doctrines.  The whole system is sooo sin focused and sooo judgmental and sooo religious that the Love of the Father is made out to be sooo insignificant even though they espouse His Love (with conditions)  Jesus negated pay-back justice in telling us to forgive and pray for our enemies in that He revealed the heart of the Father showing us that He is not a pay-back God.

See when they get you young they indoctrinate good and by the time you are an adult you are made to feel sooo unworthy that your only hope is Jesus aka big brother.  Hell one guy even told me that when God looks upon us all He sees is His Son - how sick is that?  That means we are but beasts and have no hope of a personal relationship.  It also infers that we can only have a relationship with Jesus aka Big Bro but the Father is unattainable except when cowering behind Big Bro Jesus.

Yet Jesus came to show us the way to the Father NOT to take the Father's place.  The system made Jesus a god or God Himself and thus we now sit with the idea that even Big Bro is unattainable.

Jesus came to break the bonds of religion and what we have today is another religion that makes the Father still unattainable unless (...... fill in all oblations here)

I have come to a place where I rest in the Father's Love - I still fall short many times but I do not dwell thereon.

I hope this has helped.  Feel free to question. Please read the articles linked.

Blessings

[WhiteWings]

Thanks for the answer Seeker, and Martin ofcourse.
I'll have to reread again and then I start with your links. After that I possibly give a more detailed answer.
For now I can say I have some religous background that is so shallow it's near atheism.
So I'm not really stuck in a certain doctrine.
But I can't help projecting my wordly views of "nothing comes free" and "listen or I beat the crap out of you."
I know its stated 1000s of times on this board that that the wrong way to view things.
Fine I believe that. But still its my personally build wall that I have to break down personally.