"Left behind" series...

[B_T]

This is a forum dedicated to Christianity... and I haven't found a single thread about "Left Behind" :)

My girlfriend was very shocked when she read the books. She was even terrified. I was not. Because I didn't believe in the story and I couldn't accept it as truth.
I noticed that one of the kids who is left behind had questions about hell and heaven. The book portrayed his parents as burning in hell. Because hell is a horrible place, he must accept God's "love" even though he won't see his parents in heaven ... :)

AWFUL!

[martincisneros]

Welcome to premillenial ET :grin:  Don't you love it :happy3: It's the beast with two heads from the circus :icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:

Some UR folks will say that ET's what's wrong with Left Behind 'cause they're still premillenial "Jesus could come back any second."  Without meaning any offense, I personally believe that both the premillenialism and the ET are both evil.  (As I continue, I'll get into a couple of whys, of course.)  I was premillenial, though, until two years ago when I started getting corrected through my own preaching.  I'd be at a couple of different places sharing, and I'd suddenly start wandering into talking about Jesus coming back at the time of the New Heavens and New Earth (Postmillenialism).  I'd never heard anybody say it before.  That obviously caused a few months of reading from start to finish [again and again] the book of Revelation from translations like Scarlett's, the Concordant, and Rotherham's.  And I'd do it aloud, and multiple times in one sitting from chapters 1 through 22 'cause I wasn't missing a single detail. 

I didn't care about classical proof texts of a certain position, just as I've never ever cared about such a thing.  I wanted the sense of the whole; what the whole thing was saying to me.  And then about a year into this, from mid-2006 to mid-2007, I bumped into Postmillenialism at wikipedia and finally knew what I'd been preaching in 2006 without knowing what it was.  'Cause I'd never heard of it before, while I was preaching it, obviously I was entertaining the thoughts of a "pioneer" on something :laughing7:  But once I knew that it was a legitimate school of thought in Christianity whose modern emphasis goes back to a man in the 1600s by the name of Daniel Whitby, then I was really happy to have found another piece of the jigsaw puzzle.  And like Universalism, Postmillenialism was the predominant view in the early Church although you can also find Amillenialism present as well, through Augustine whose ideas of election never quite allowed him to be totally optimistic about the future of the Church in the world.  I've read some really really good papers online that were doctoral thesis stuff from guys in Australia where they traced the historical roots to Premillenialism to Zoarastrianism having crept into the Church. 

I'll try to find those links again.  It's regretable at the time that I didn't have a good enough computer with enough available memory to make copies of those webpages onto the computer 'cause I really did feel like those papers were that important and that well researched.  I'm going to have a fit if I can't find those papers any more.  The only real reason I could see for papers like that having gotten taken down, if when I go back looking for them if they happen to not be online any more, would be if they were going to be expanded, perhaps put into "layman's" format and published in paperback.  So, if google and google's international sites fail me then I'll be combing amazon.com and their international sites for that stuff.  Seriously good stuff.  I'll send you a PM if I find one of the links on that stuff.

Basically, premillenialism puts Israel as the centrality of Bible prophecy while postmillenialism puts Jesus Christ as the centrality of Bible prophecy.  Premillenialism is usually Zionistic.  You can be Pro-Israel without being Zionistic 'cause Zionism essentially is the political spin that Israel's always right.  Gary Amirault's the first one to bark and to bite over that one :laughing7: But he loves the people of Israel as much as anybody else would or could.  Premillenial Zionism very frequently does the thing for Israel that UR folks are accused of, in saying that there's a way to the Father other than through Jesus Christ (i.e. Judaism with their rebuilt temple and animal sacrifices).  Premillenialists will often be very insistent that God's got a way of saving Israel independent of Christ for the sake of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  It's a real mockery of the Cross and all that Jesus is about as the Seed of Abraham to whom the promises were made, as I've discovered in retrospect after having been taught it since I was 30 seconds old and only having started rethinking it over the last year and a half or so.

Admittedly, some Premillenialists may come by later and wish to put an entirely different spin on this and defend their brand of premillenialism, but all that I'm saying is reflecting the Left Behind Genre 'cause Tim LaHaye is buds with all of the guys that I did grow up hearing, like Hal Lindsey, the LaLonde brothers, Grant Jeffrey, Stewart McBernie, Jack Van Impe, and other infamous premillenialists.  I've still got a VHS of a video called "Left Behind" that was put together by most of these guys, that may have been the prequel to all of the movies.  It's a re-enactment of the world's media having stories after the rapture has happened, and they're showing their god to be the god of pandamonium and hatred of the world.  Name it, and it's on the video in the form of news stories with plane crashes, people setting themselves on fire as they went mad 'cause their wives ceased to exist in front of their eyes, etc.  And then a representation of the US president is giving this new agey speech.  And then the head of the European Union's announcing Himself to be the God that'll lead the rest of the world into their own Godhood by showing them all of these new age powers within themselves, etc.  And then all of the Bible prophecy experts, like Wolvoord, Lindsey, Peter and Paul LaLonde, Grant Jeffrey, Dave Breese, and perhaps one or two others are giving their spiel about how you may need to die for Christ 'cause you can't accept the Mark or you'll be damned forever and ever.  They're going to cut your head off, but those that endure 'til the end shall be saved.  Would you like to pray and accept Christ today?  He's your only hope!  You're not promised tomorrow!

It's well done as a presentation.  Even as a Postmillenial Universalist, it'll give me the heevie jeevies every once in a while when I'm in the mood for a good horror flick :Sparkletooth:  But often I'll roll my eyes that I used to believe this stuff that's that bankrupt of love :thumbdown:

On the book of Revelation board Dallas posts a link to stuff by David Chilton who was a Postmillenial author from a few years ago, that Harold Lovelace has indicated to me was UR as well.  I can't remember which thread it's on, but there's not like just hundreds and hundreds of threads over there yet.  Although I'm thinking he was a preterist too, which has kept me from just running into his stuff.  A lot of Postmillenialist authors are unfortunately Calvinists, so when you bump into isolated ET references, you'll just have to keep Ephesians chapters two and one in the back of your mind about "in the ages to come He'll show the exceeding riches of His grace..." and "gathered together into one in Christ..." each time you bump into a reference to that.  I'll have to double check a Postmillenial article that I have on the book of Revelation board to see if the link is still any good.  If it's not, I've got the article in question on Revelation 19 stored on one of my site's servers and I'd just need to change the link.

[martincisneros]

As I was double checking a couple of links on the book of Revelation board to make sure that they still worked, I bumped into that info that I'd mentioned in my previous post that Dallas had posted, so here it is:

If you go to, preterism.com they have a nice pdf days of vengence and something I recomend as a first Chilton read at freebooks.com Paradise Restored (html  :dontknow:)

I would highly suggest strating with Paradise Restored.

Keep in mind that Chilton was a partial preterist when he wrote these, and as the God-Father of modern-day preterism he later became a full preterist.

Enjoy :bgdance:

[AJ]

.
I WANT TO BE "LEFT BEHIND" - by Mike Blume...
http://jesusthelightoftheworld.yuku.com/topic/2593

The pre-triubulation rapture is a misplaced hope.
http://jesusthelightoftheworld.yuku.com/topic/2589

The 'Rapture' an erroneous beliefs - by Bible Basics
http://jesusthelightoftheworld.yuku.com/topic/2588

When people say Rapture - by James Hall
http://jesusthelightoftheworld.yuku.com/topic/2591

Secret Rapture & Pre Trib is bogus - by Jason Dulle
http://jesusthelightoftheworld.yuku.com/topic/2595

Secret Rapture - a false hope -by Gerard
http://jesusthelightoftheworld.yuku.com/topic/2597

.

[laren]

here is also some interesting links, from a preterist view.

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/home.htm

click on eschatology link on the left.

[B_T]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmLhyPjHVes - this is one of the videos the Xians promote as how the rapture will look like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yItJpd0VeAU&feature=related - and how hell is being viewed.

[james.goetz]

Hi Martin,

I'd be interested in evidence to back up that many in the Early Church believed in something similar to Postmillenialism. I'm turned off to the Puritan approach to Postmillenialism, which focuses more on the Old Testament law instead of the New Testament grace. But I'd like to study what the Early Church says about Postmillenialism, if you know of any online resources about it.

I think your mostly complaining about pre-trib or mid-trib Premillenialism, which is the majority of current Premillenialism. I've never seen a time lapse between the rapture and the Lord's return, even while the Assemblies of God credentialed me.

My eschatology doesn't fit into any of the classical schools such as Premillenialism, Amillenialism, and Postmillenialism. I give strong consideration to Jeremiah and other Old Testament prophets who teach that all predictive judgments are conditional based upon obedience and disobedience. For example, I believe that 2 Thessalonians 2 teaches that a final powerful antichrist will appear before the Lord's return. And I also believe that the antichrist can repent, so any predicted final tribulation would be conditional. I'm conditional-trib and I'm comfortable with the term conditional Premillenialism. On the other hand, if the antichrist gets saved and likewise serves the Lord, then the outcome could look a lot like Postmillenialism. On the other hand, I would never count on the antichrist getting saved before the Lord returns. Regardless of battle or no battle when the Lord returns, I suppose that their will be a special reign on earth after the Lord returns.

[Kimberlaina]

I have a funny story about the Left Behind series.

My best friend gave me the first book for my birthday when I turned 16.  (She is uber-religious and always worried about people's souls ;) )  Well, I started reading it and got really into it, but soon I discovered I had a problem with the books, and it wasn't particularly theological.

When I was 15, I had had a close friendship and huge crush on a young man I met while I was an exchange student in the Netherlands.  He had a lot of unfortunate things happen in his life and he shared a great deal with me.  As a consequence of these experiences, he was really struggling with what he believed about God, and would oscillate from Catholic to atheist at the drop of a hat.  I visited Sacre Coeur (in Paris) with him and I remember seeing him quietly walk around behind the altar, and wondering what he was thinking about.  He seemed like a real lost soul.  We had a falling out later on and I didn't hear from him for about seven years.

Anyway, by the time of my 16th birthday when I got the book, I still had feelings for him even though we had all but fallen out by then.  As I read the book, a certain character began to remind me of my sweetheart; let me tell you about him.  He grew up in Europe.  He was remarkably fluent in many languages.  He was an aspiring politician, known for his ability to give extremely persuasive speeches.  He came from a Christian background.  He was going to attend one of the best law schools in Europe.  Is he sounding familiar yet?  My sweetheart began to sound an awful lot like Nicolae Carpathia  . . . the DEVIL INCARNATE!

Needless to say this was a huge distraction while reading the books.  As much as I wanted to believe in the "good news" of the rapture, that message was entirely lost on me as Nicolae and my sweetheart literally became one in my mind.  While others read the book for the "happy news," I was struggling with the idea that God could take a young man like the one I was in love with and allow him to be used and defiled in a most unimaginable way.  It was God working in my heart, but at the time it made no sense to me at all.  I quit reading the series about halfway into it because I knew what would happen to Nicolae in the end and I didn't really want to read it.

In hindsight it is funny because I think that the book had the exact opposite effect on me that LaHaye and Jenkins intended.  But it just goes to show you that God uses everything to move people toward Himself.

[reFORMer]

(I just came across this thread and since I just now on another website wrote something about this topic I thought I'd post an excerpt:)


There is nothing in the Bible about any "7 years great tribulation."  While the phrase "great tribulation" appears 3 times, it is nowhere in connection with the number 7.  That's just sustained by recent traditions among a small segment of The Church.  More Bible facts about this could be given; but, if you don't change what you think by tossing out that phrase, what's the point.

There is nothing in the Bible that defines as separate the racially gentile believers from the racially Jewish.  That wall of partition was torn down in Jesus' death.

There is nothing anywhere in the Bible that says the racially gentile believers will suddenly DISAPPEAR.

There is nothing anywhere in the Bible that says this will be en masse; that is, the whole group in the same moment.  This is still true if you're referring to the metamorphosis of our physical bodies into immortal bodies of glory happening for the gentile church (?) all at once.  The only Bible phrase offered to support that idea is "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," which certainly says nothing about "everybody all at once."  Even if  "in a moment" was legitimate, it may be understood to be for each individual "one at a time," while it may take a generation (40 years) for it to happen to all those for whom it will happen.  However, there's no reason we should see anything about a measurement of time in the word here.  Actually it is in "atomos" which meant in classical Greek what we mean when we refer to elements in chemistry, as in the periodic table of of "elements."   Inotherwords, in the very elements of your physical body, it's atomic structures, there will be a change from the presence of God "possessing"  (Greek:  harpazo) you at the most fundamental level, even the material of your body.  The word may also refer to continuation, just the next step in your walk with God, and not something that can be divided off into a separate event.  In Greek "a tomos" is a negative of "cutting" or "dividing;" It means something "that cannot be cut in two, or divided, indivisible," ie., "un-cut."  This is the only place in the N.T. that this word occurs though a positive form, "tomoteros" occurs in Hebrews 4:12 referring to the word of God being "sharper" meaning "'cuting keener' than any two-mouthed sword." (...etc.)

"In the twinkling of an eye" means to cast your view to something else.  It is not an indication of a length of time.  We are changed "from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord" as we behold Him.  The presence of the Lord occurs by our being brought into beholding Him in increasing glory.

It is also "IN atomos, IN looking [upon Him in another realm] and IN the last trumpt."  In, in, in...


your brother, James M. Rohde

[Akira Takahashi]

Which book has the kid whose parents are in Hell?  The first one?