The belief issue.........

[nightflight]

Is Christ the savior of one regardless of that person's belief, or does he become Savior upon belief?  Is Jesus a potential savior only, till one believes?

Very confusing.

[Craig]

He is Savior of all mankind, especially to those who believe it.

If you had a billion dollars in your bank account, and you did not know, you still had a billion dollars in your bank account. Now, if someone told you you had a billion dollars in your bank account, you can believe it and it would still be true. Now think of the difference in life between a man who didn't know he had a billion dollars in his bank account, and the one who knows he has a billion dollars in his bank account.

[WhiteWings]

Where I live it would mean I end up in jail if I don't know of the 1 billion on my bankaccount  :2c:
Just because those tax collectors feel swindled out of their part if you don't report your kapital.
But I think that's not what you mean  :icon_jokercolor:

And if you know"
I can guarantee again that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."  Matt 19:24 (GW)
Mmm, not good either  :icon_jokercolor:

Serious now. My guess is that with a the knowledge of Jesus/billion you will live a hapy life on earth.
However the diffrence with the money is that when you die the money doesn't trouble you.
But God isn't happy when you didn't know Him during life. So you get punished for not knowing about the billion so to speak.

Or is their a diffrence between not knowing and rejecting?

[Craig]

It is a human argument, an analogy.  :happy3:

The only weeping and gnashing of teeth a person has at the end when they reject the fact they had a billion dollars in their bank account, is the realization they actually did.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Craig...  :happygrin:

He is Savior of all mankind, especially to those who believe it.

If you had a billion dollars in your bank account, and you did not know, you still had a billion dollars in your bank account. Now, if someone told you you had a billion dollars in your bank account, you can believe it and it would still be true. Now think of the difference in life between a man who didn't know he had a billion dollars in his bank account, and the one who knows he has a billion dollars in his bank account.

Very good Craig!  :thumbsup:

peace...
...willieH   :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

It is a human argument, an analogy.  :happy3:

The only weeping and gnashing of teeth a person has at the end when they reject the fact they had a billion dollars in their bank account, is the realization they actually did.

This time I really understood what you wrote. Honest! :P
But still one thing keeps nagging me. I hope you, or someone else, can explain it to me in simple way.
Many never in their life have even heard the name Jesus in their lifes. (know about the billion)
Why should they be 'punished' for that in the afterlife?
Or why should someone be punished because he/she is tricked by someone who thaught them a false doctrine during their life?

I'm aware I asked this before but I never got a clear answer.

[Craig]

My analogy is not perfect, it is the idea that needs to be understood. The consequence of not believing you had a billion dollars, is that you continue live in poverty. Through His death we have been reconciled, through His Life we are saved. The consequence of not believing that Jesus saved you from your sin, is that you continue to live in sin. Sin has consequences which we are all responsible and accountable for, therefore those who continue to sin will enter aionios kolasis (a time of corrective punishment) so that they may be perfected in love. None will be lost, all will be taken care of.

So what is the sin of not telling people they had a billion dollars in their bank accounts? Well, what is the reason you would not tell them, if you knew? To him who knows what is good and does not do it, it is sin.

[WhiteWings]

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 5:13 (KJV)

That means when there is no law, sin won't be punished. (correct?)
Today there is a law; but if you truely don't know that law because, for example you belong to undiscovered tribe in the Amazon forrest, you get punished.
But IMO there is no diffrence between a time with and without the law when you never heard about the rules of that law. It feels unjust to me.
Or is that covered by:
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Matt 11:22-24 (KJV)

My interpretation is that we are not judged on our deeds; but on our deeds under the best circumstances. So in my example God reviews the lifes of the people in that tribe on how they would have lived if they heard the word.
Does that make any sense?

[Craig]

The Law was not given to the world, but to Israel. So it does not apply to those whom God has not chosen to give it. To us, who are not Israel, we abide by the law which bears witness on our hearts.

Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.