What's an "aeon"!?

[Paul]

The crux of the Universal Reconciliation argument is that words like ever, never, everlasting, forever and eternal are mistranslations. The Hebrew word from which the preceding words are translated is olam; and the Greek word is aeon (or aion). I've heard three definitions given:

1. An age.
2. A period of time.
3. An eon (Concordant Literal Version)

Note: Here's a good piece of writing on this: http://bible-truths.com/email18.htm

The problem is I've never seen any explanations for the "aeonian" Lake of Fire (sorry, I'm too lazy to read long articles on it at the moment.) Please fill me in on the Universalist's argument about the Lake of Fire. When you take away the words everlasting (etc.), and replace them with one of the above three, it just sounds like it's going to last a really, really, really long time.

[martincisneros]

The word "forever" in the KJV is never attached to the Lake of Fire.  But the phrase, in the English, "forever and ever" is applied to it, which is the Greek compound "aiona ton aiona."  It's not specifically applied to the Lake, per se, but those who've taken the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 14:11 are said to be tormented "forever and ever" in fire and brimstone. 

You said you've not had the patience for a really long article on this, so if this is choppy at points, maybe it'll tweak you enough to pull you into some of the longer articles on the main website and some of the longer posts on other threads on these boards.  If not, that's fine.  But with this message not being mainstream yet, you're not exactly going to flip on TBN, Daystar, or CBN for a television presentation of this in the near future.  This is one of those pain in the butt areas where you've gotta do a lot of reading. :laughing7:

I personally don't believe that the Lake of Fire judgment will be longer than between 30 minutes and 5 months, if it turned out to be something future.  A couple of different things that I'm looking at in the book of Revelation regarding that.  Some of that is reading each of the 7 letters of the book of Revelation as directly corresponding with each of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls where each corresponds in numerical order (ex: letter 1, seal 1, trumpet 1, bowl 1; letter 2, seal 2, trumpet 2, bowl 2, etc.).  So, from my perspective, it's a matter of how I'd personally be lining up the judgments and whether or not I'm looking at either the thirty minutes of silence in heaven or the sting of scorpions lasting for 5 months.  If you take the book as strictly chronological, then my 30 minute reference may seem like just the time period before the next series of judgments and totally irrelevant to this subject, but the 5 month scorpion torment is specifically related to those taking the Mark of the Beast.

In Isaiah 34 we've got a judgment passage where the land was given over to fire "forever and ever."  And as you keep reading, suddenly there's a change of scenery where the land is completely overrun with animals "forever and ever."  There's no reason for believing that God was going to work the same miracle for those animals that He did for the same guys that were thrown in the fire in the book of Daniel, so obviously one "forever and ever" ended before the next one began.  And since that part of the world today is populated and neither on fire or overrun with the animals mentioned in that passage, then we've got two different "forever and ever" judgments that obviously ended ages ago.

In the book of Jonah, he said he was in the belly of the beast (whale shark or whatever) "forever" and that was only 3 days, so an age need not be hundreds of years.  A book on the main Tentmaker site called "The Greek Word Aion" by J.W. Hanson can show you that an "age" from the 5th century B.C. to the 5th century A.D. was often interpreted by the Greek lexicographers of the time period as being the lifespan of a human being, though it could be regarded as shorter or longer.

The early Church Father Origen interpreted the book of Revelation to be saying that the Lake of Fire judgment was 1,000 years long.  In the book of Revelation, and I don't know if Origen had a manuscript back then that was clearer, or if because he was closer in time period to the language of the Apostles if he felt greater liberty in dogmatizing a bit on this point -- but basically, in the book of Revelation the saints reign with Christ for a thousand years during the millenium.  Yet, again, it says that they reign for a thousand years during which time they can't be hurt by the second death aka the Lake of Fire.  That gets you over into a whole other series of arguments about how literal is a thousand in Scripture.  And then you could argue that just because the oven's on that long, that that doesn't mean that everything you've got cooking in there would stay in for the same length of time as everything else.  If you've got a turkey in the oven and on a separate rack or shelve in the oven you place some buttermilk buscuits, you're obviously not cooking the buscuits for the same length of time.

A few people around here don't take the Lake of Fire as something futuristic, but as reflecting how God is dealing with sin in this present world.  I'm still working through what I believe about it based on various passages of Scripture.

Realistically, though, if you assume human life and if you presume to take Revelation 20 as literally, how long can people honestly endure intense heat, radiation, or whatever.  Revelation 20 places this around the time period of a resurrection.  If not taken literally, then it can simply be within the context of the severe judgments of the previous 13 or 14 chapters.  And if it's literal fire or nuclear weapons, then you're either immediately ash or sick for months with radiation poisoning (perhaps the 5 months spoken of elsewhere as scorpion torments), or if it's a spiritual biproduct of the preaching of the Gospel -- then it's just however long it takes between the sowing of the Word and any helpful nudges, pushes, and pulls from the Holy Spirit and the Angels and however long it takes for you to react favorably to that and embrace the Lordship of Jesus and commit to discipling your life to the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit that He gives to those that obey Him.

[Paul]

I find that link I posted to be the perfect exposé on everlasting being a mistranslation. Let's say you were introducing Universal Salvation to someone, and you started by showing them everlasting's a mistranslation and you showed them that exposé: What would you say? "Y'see? The Lake of Fire doesn't last forever and ever; it just lasts for the eons of the eons!"

Doesn't that sound a little foolish? I dunno about you, but I've always known eon to mean the longest unit of geological time. Like, millions of years.

An exposé like that merely shortens the duration of Hell from infinite to billions and billions of years. Psh, I suppose it's good that it eventually ends.

[Craig]

An exposé like that merely shortens the duration of Hell from infinite to billions and billions of years. Psh, I suppose it's good that it eventually ends.

There is a big difference between perpetual and limited durations, even if it is a million years. Here is just an idea of the difference between a million years and perpetually.

A million years =
-
Perpetually = ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------....this  doesn't stop.

[Craig]

Doesn't that sound a little foolish? I dunno about you, but I've always known eon to mean the longest unit of geological time. Like, millions of years.

An aeon (Latin/English), and aion (Greek), though look the same and one is derived from the other, actually don't have the same exact meaning. This is a case of Semantic Anachronism, this is where the meaning of a modern word is read back into the biblical occurrence, an aion can last an aeon, or even an eon, but all it means is an indeterminate (not fixed or known in advance) period of time that we like to call an 'age'.

To measure out how long an age lasts, we need to know what it is that the age is attributed to. As you mentioned, a geological age is millions of years, but the age of human is about 70 years, the age of a fruit fly is 24 hours. As you can see an 'age' is ambiguous, it doesn't mean anything on it's own.

Next, we need to know if it was meant literally or metaphorically, is there a concrete purpose or an abstract purpose to the age being described? So it was the age of my youth, could mean that it was when I was 0-17 years old, or I could have been speaking of my simple mindedness, which if I was already 70, would be 0-69 years. Is time actually relevant after death? Could the ages and ages just simply refer to the living, and not the dead. In other words, God reigns for ages and ages according to those who live, but one moment to the other, for the dead. Is the purpose to tell future generations, or it is talking about those today enduring the proposed ages.

Too many people have been victim to the genetic fallacy. That is where we presuppose or assume the facts we were taught, are indeed facts to begin with. The best thing a person can do is actually go out and study it out, and make sure that what we may have thought, is actually credible to begin with. Pride prevents the truth from being searched, and that is why God humbles the haughty. So that we do not sound foolish when presenting our facts, we need to make sure we truly know the facts.

[Paul]

You're response is good about aion being a relative word, but I'm still in the dark, so I made this reply  :icon_flower:

That example you gave above is awesome. Such a perfect representation.

Listen, let's say you manage to convince a conventional Christian that "ever and ever" really is a mistranslation, and that it really says "eons of the eons."

What do you say next? This is the heart of Universalism. I need to understand how they're not literal eons and what they are. If I was trying to explain the "ever and ever" and "eons and eons" thing to a bunch of Christians, and they asked me, "well, uh, what does being tormented day and night for the 'eons of the eons' mean?" And I said "well, Mr. Cisneros from tentmaker.org thinks the Lake of Fire will last somewhere between 30 minutes and 5 months" I think we all know what the reaction to that would be.

I'm not trying to be rude, it's just that replacing the words "ever and ever" with "eons and eons" DOES NOT BY ANY MEANS remove the concept of a place where you burn alive for a ridiculously long time.

Peter Ruckman expressed the reality of an everlasting Lake of Fire in a video of his. He said something to the nature of "you're gonna be there for billions and billions and billions of years and it's still not gonna be over. You're gonna look up and see that new Jerusalem, and say God, is it ever gonna end. It'll never end."

Well, if Dr. Ruckman believed the Concordant Literal Version was the Word of God, he'd say it would eventually be over. But burning alive "just" for billions and billions of years is still an unthinkable concept. It's still Hell. So, I'm afraid I fail to see how Universalism holds up. Tormented day and night for eons and eons... Unless someone can give me a substantial abstract meaning for this seemingly very literal verse, I'm afraid I can't take Universalism seriously.

[Craig]

Paul, do you mind me asking you questions then. Answer them honestly, and the answers will drive understanding. They will be meant to put pressure on you, that pressure is good, since most people are only motivated by pressure or crisis to change their minds. It is not meant to make you feel or look silly or foolish, nor is meant to say that I know more than you. The purpose is to bring clarity to a thing which you are still in the dark concerning.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Paul,

I have a question concerning your point of view.

I think you are biasing your own perspective by thinking that an eon may be for billions of years. 

Of course,  I am not saying I know exactly how long it is.  But, I do know that growing up,  when my father would correct me, it seems like ages before it ended.

With that said, lets just deal with what scripture may say hence my question. 

Some universalist may believe we are still tortured, but not for eternity, most I believe have seen the scriptures as correction or "for our benefit".  The negative connotations seem more about what happens to the evil in us when it is destroyed more so than seeing in scripture that we will be tortured.

The clay pot that the potter makes must be "fired" before it's true potential can be realized, that fire is for the pots benefit.

But for the sake of argument, we will use the word punishment nevertheless generally speaking.

If you can't take universalism seriously based upon punishment ending then do you take eternal punishment seriously, or are you a non believer?

[Paul]

SOTW: Ask away.

most I believe have seen the scriptures as correction or "for our benefit".

The clay pot that the potter makes must be "fired" before it's true potential can be realized, that fire is for the pots benefit.

This sounds about right. Now it's just a matter of substantiating that view with the Scriptures.

I'm agnostic, by the way.

[joyful1]

Hi Martin! :icon_flower:
You said earlier in this thread:
"A few people around here don't take the Lake of Fire as something futuristic, but as reflecting how God is dealing with sin in this present world.  I'm still working through what I believe about it based on various passages of Scripture."

I would be one of those that believe that the elect are being judged now and that the rest of us will endure the LOF later.
http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/What_Is_The_Lake_Of_Fire.php

Here is a brief portion of the above article with key scriptures included for your consideration:

If we are not "dying daily", then we are not being judged now, and we will be judged later in the lake of fire. Both are judgments of 'fire.' But what is that 'fire?'

I Cor 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Cor 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Cor 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What is this fire? Here is what 'fire' is in scripture:
1 Pet 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

It is through our trials that God's symbolic 'fire' burns the wood, hay and stubble out of our lives. It is through "filling up in our own bodies that which is behind of the sufferings of the Christ," that we are judged now while yet in this "vessel of clay." Here it is, in this same chapter:

1 Pet 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Just thought you might like seeing this.

Paul and SOTW....interesting discussion.
Joyce  :icon_flower:

[Paul Hazelwood]

most I believe have seen the scriptures as correction or "for our benefit".

The clay pot that the potter makes must be "fired" before it's true potential can be realized, that fire is for the pots benefit.

This sounds about right. Now it's just a matter of substantiating that view with the Scriptures.

I'm agnostic, by the way.

1Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Proverbs 17:3 The smelter for silver and the crucible for gold, Yet Yahweh is testing hearts.

Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Titus 3:3 For we'  also were once foolish, stubborn, deceived, slaves of various desires and gratifications, leading a life in malice and envy, detestable, hating one another.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,


Re 20:12 And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And the scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts.


Titus 2:11 For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity,


Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)




That may not be the end all of scriptures,  but there is definatly talk in scripture of the judgment of God being for our benefit as opposed to being the deciding point of our eternal destiny.

[Paul]

Thanks, Paul.

L. Ray Smith believes we're killed in the Lake of Fire--that only the "unholy trinity" is tormented day and night for the eons of the eons: http://pages.citebite.com/i6l2g0w1aofk

And none of those three are even concious beings, I don't believe.

[WhiteWings]

Thanks, Paul.

L. Ray Smith believes we're killed in the Lake of Fire--that only the "unholy trinity" is tormented day and night for the eons of the eons: http://pages.citebite.com/i6l2g0w1aofk

And none of those three are even concious beings, I don't believe.

The beast is a spiritual being, right?
Fire only has effect on material things. That alone proves that we are not dealing with fire as we know it in this world.

[meerkat]

The word "forever" in the KJV is never attached to the Lake of Fire.  But the phrase, in the English, "forever and ever" is applied to it, which is the Greek compound "aiona ton aiona."  It's not specifically applied to the Lake, per se, but those who've taken the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 14:11 are said to be tormented "forever and ever" in fire and brimstone. 

Martin,

Rev 14:11 says "the smoke of their torment rises up into the ages of ages"  (ice aion aion) 

εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literallyor figuratively.

The mistranslation is where it is assumed that because it is assumed that the smoke rises eternally the the torment happens eternally. 


Doesn't this sound a lot like the spirit rises up to eternal life..  I believe that the resurrection of the wicked happens at this point ....they are raised from the "lake of fire", not raised to go into the "lake of fire"

The torment is not for ages and ages - the spirit rises into the ages of ages

[Craig]

SOTW: Ask away.

I lost track of this thread, sorry Paul.

[WhiteWings]

To measure out how long an age lasts, we need to know what it is that the age is attributed to. As you mentioned, a geological age is millions of years, but the age of human is about 70 years, the age of a fruit fly is 24 hours. As you can see an 'age' is ambiguous, it doesn't mean anything on it's own.

You are now comparing with earthly things. After death eternity starts so times can get extremely large.
Heaven is a place of extreme happiness; but how can the people in heaven be so happy if they know their loved ones (90% of humanity) is being punished for the next 5 billion years.
Surely God has the power to make the ones in heaven temporarily forget the others. Or perhaps punishment lasts only 1 second viewed from heavens perspective but it feels much longer to the one punished.

Well, if Dr. Ruckman believed the Concordant Literal Version was the Word of God, he'd say it would eventually be over. But burning alive "just" for billions and billions of years is still an unthinkable concept. It's still Hell. So, I'm afraid I fail to see how Universalism holds up. Tormented day and night for eons and eons... Unless someone can give me a substantial abstract meaning for this seemingly very literal verse, I'm afraid I can't take Universalism seriously.

Unthinkable, but still less unthinkable than eternal punishment.
I'm starting to feel more and more that there is no real fire in hell. Throughout the Bible God is often symbolized by fire; just as Jesus is symbolized as a lamb.
Hell might 'just' be a spiritual lake of fire.
Real fire has no corrective/learning ability. When you are drowning in a lake a lava I doubt you will start to learn "Biblical behavior"
Your only thought, or should I say instinct, will be somehow getting out of that fire. Even by brute force if that would help. And brute force is one of the things you have to 'unlearn'

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'm starting to feel more and more that there is no real fire in hell. Throughout the Bible God is often symbolized by fire; just as Jesus is symbolized as a lamb.
Hell might 'just' be a spiritual lake of fire.

It is.

[joyful1]

When you are drowning in a lake a lava I doubt you will start to learn "Biblical behavior"

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/568/568363v9kx6xu2g5.gif)
good one, white wings!

[WhiteWings]

The crux of the Universal Reconciliation argument is that words like ever, never, everlasting, forever and eternal are mistranslations.

I think UR has 2 main pilars.
a] The ever translation issues you mentioned.
b] The verses that all will be saved.

a and b strengthen eachother imo.
If you believe in ET you also have to explain away all the 'God saves all' verses.