exclusivism in the Gospel

[anti_nietzsche]

I've recently talked a bit with a calvinist woman who believes that Jesus died only for His church, and for no one else. She cited the following scriptures to support her argument:

"I lay down my life for my sheep..." (John 10:!5)

"I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me...I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine...And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth." (John 17:6,9,19)

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matthew 26:28)

"For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45)

She put particular emphasis on the word "many". Is that a translation error like in other portions of scripture where there should be a "the" so that it reads "the many"? If not, how do you interpret these passages.

[reFORMer]

There are some places where attention to detail makes "many" (Greek:  polu) virtually all like in Romans 5 where either many plus Jesus or many plus Adam is in both cases all.

Many believe in Jesus today; but, many more will tomorrow.  One day, all will.  Many who do not know Him today will know Him tomorrow.  This does not preclude the ultimate "unto me shall all flesh come . . . every knee shall bow, every tongue confess," a clear "word of God" in both Hebrew and Greek Scripture.

I always drive my car to the store for groceries.  That doesn't mean I'll not drive my car across the continent someday.  Of all the creatures known to exist, many have more than 4 legs.  The understanding of "many" must fit with the many times "all" is used in relation to God's inclusive work and it's ultimate outcome.  We can't just dump "all" because there's a "many!"  Look for instance at these verses from

1 Timothy 2:1-6:
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This last verse 6 not only puts in it's place Mark 10:45, "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many," it also suggests His ransom sacrifice includes more than mankind as is clearly stated elsewhere (such as Hosea 2:18.)

After 14 years of being a believer who also read and studied Scripture I accumulated some problems with finding actual words of Scripture to make statements concerning the doctrine of God being the Ceasless Torturer.  I ignorantly placed too much value on "for ever, everlasting, eternal" and such words at that time, though they are one way to determine the matter decisively.  So, I had just then studied the Greek word "eon,-s,-ian" when I hit the verses:  "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach."  (1 Tim 9-11)  For the first time in my life I believed what this says.  I knew that meant I'd crossed the threshold and was now outside of Institutional Christianity, a reject forever, so I looked at my watch to note the time:  3 am, July 18, 1981.  Sometimes "the many" reference what in these verses is seen as special to believers, though including all.

[Craig]

Oh, you are just speaking to Calvinists.

I had a former Calvinist friend, former because I made it that way, who said, "I thank God for Him saving me through His Son, the deaths of billions going to hell in contrast to one soul being saved was worth it."

Meh, Calvinists.

[martincisneros]

Oh, you are just speaking to Calvinists.

I had a former Calvinist friend, former because I made it that way, who said, "I thank God for Him saving me through His Son, the deaths of billions going to hell in contrast to one soul being saved was worth it."

Meh, Calvinists.

:eeew: :omg: