A question that'll upset many I'm sure....

[trying]

Like many of you, I was raised in a "christian home" raised to believe the Bible and everything it said....

The problem is, however, I never once recall getting any sort of training as to its authenticity.... and foundation etc..

i.e. how any anyone be sure it's the book (collection of books) we're supposed to be reading to know the heart of God?

Folks say "it's God's word writted by men who were inspired by God".... How do we know that?

[aspiring son]

Trying,

That's an honest question that I'm sure many of us have considered if we are honest. But the way I approach the question is in it's consistency. Do any of the books really contradicit one another? The truth is, it's books span a time frame of hundreds and hundreds of years, yet flow and agree with one another allowing us to gain revelation of God by combinig them together. Man would have never been able to do that consistently for that long of a time. We don't have it in us to be as honest as Christ was about the sin in our lives. It's not a theolgical question, but a confirmation in the spirit. A holy book can only be birthed by a holy substance, in which by nature is not us. Pray and meditate on these thinngs.

God Bless

[Paul Hazelwood]

Like many of you, I was raised in a "christian home" raised to believe the Bible and everything it said....

The questions come up because many times what you was taught in church was doctrine that was said to be irrefutably from the bible. So when you study and find those conflicts you question if the bible is correct, when the issue was more about what you was "told" it meant.

The problem is, however, I never once recall getting any sort of training as to its authenticity.... and foundation etc..

This is true, few churches dig hard into this.  I do not think there is any one thing that this can be attributed to. What I found is that the more I dig into scripture, study of the history, study of its words, seeking contradiction, the greater love I found for the Father and the more suspect religion became.

[WhiteWings]

Another thing is; how can I know the Bible I have is (overly) complete?
I'm not talking about the things like aion translations but whole books.
Revelation for example almost didn't made it as an official Bible book.
I also have 'The book of Enoch' and 25 so called 'Lost Books'
Perhaps all those books are for real and Revelation is just a hoax.
I lack all the skills to verify that. So I just read the Books that 'everyone' reads so it should be ok.
But can I/we really know it's the correct Bible we read?

The Bible is inspired by God. But how many really have seen that Bible? Most of the world reads translations that are written in the style of "mmmm, I guess God means .... here" (read the whole eon discussions) And even those who can read Hebrew and Greek just read copies.

I just do the best I can. And if I ever reach the level of deserving the title relegious and at judgement day it appears I alwayd was reading (and so acting to) the wrong Bible I sure God won't judge me on those mistakes.

[martincisneros]

I'll not lock the thread, but I'm not opposed to any of the moderators doing so if they feel like they need to for whatever reason.  I noticed in the Christian Life-General board that Pierac locked a thread that Peacetroll had started on Jesus being the Father, and he was referring people over to the Father's Love forum at http://fatherslove.freeforums.org/portal.php where that subject could be explored more freely and without [nearly as many] risks of sensorship.

Gary Amirault, the site owner, had stepped in a few months ago and had some of the boards shut down and requested that things get back on track with the purpose of the boards which he envisioned as leading people into UR.  So, I'll understand the basis for it and will support the decision totally of any moderators that feel like this topic wanders at any point a bit far and a bit into some of the history that we've just come out of on topics that got over-heated or that didn't maintain a high enough level of respect for the Scriptures.

I just want to see if this topic can abide by the newly redirected/clarified emphasis of the boards and stay fruitful and out of the ditch on either side of the road.  Some people thought when I was made admin that I was coming in as gestapo and crushing all discussions that I personally had issues with, which was a misinformed judgment about me.  I had to come in kicking a few doors in and taking names on the Eliot Ness schtick 'cause I didn't know to what degree I was being watched and if I'd carry out what had been passed on to me about the redirection of the boards.  No one tests limits and why they're there more than me.  With very few exceptions, I've always wound up coming back to a few fundamentalist conclusions about the integrity of the Written Word of God because of the supernatural type of Christianity that I've always waded in by choice or by a short leash on Abba's part. 

To me, personally, it's all a bunch of odious crap if the Book's not reliable.  At the same time, I realize that not everybody that comes to these boards is there yet.  But I've not liked any of the alternatives to what's sneeringly been called on these very boards a few months ago the Magic Book (i.e. a derogatory reference to the inerrancy of Scripture doctrine).  Everything else has always PROVEN to me to be sinking sand.  Translational, interpretive, and point of view issues are genuinely 99% of the issues -- and then if He ever shows up in your life at all or not.  My personal experience has always been that the people that I've known personally that have had problems with the Book have usually had currently ongoing issues with the God of the Book, viz., some unanswered prayer or expectation, or some frustration that was building elsewhere and while they were in that emotional anticlimax the last thing that they wanted to hear were the basic instructions before leaving earth that "if you abide in Me and My Words abide in you...." or "we have a more sure Word of prophecy..." which contextually is the Written Word being held up by St. Peter as superior to eye-witness testimony of His Majesty Himself in His transfigured glory (2Peter chpt 1).  And the Book was simply taking some heat for what they were going through or unanswered questions about evil and suffering, or expectations of Him that lacked a firm foundation in the promises, or -- and usually -- IMPATIENCE...

LORD, I WANT PATIENCE AND I WANT IT NOW!!!!!!!!!! AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[martincisneros]

And I realize that my previous comments speak volumes about the veracity of the Old Testament, but that Peter and Paul with their comments about all Scripture being God-breathed doesn't totally let the New Testament off of the hook because they were primarily speaking about the Old Testament.  That still leaves open the questions about the general Epistle of Barnabas, Clement of Rome's first Epistle, Gospel of Nicodemus, the Book of Enoch, etc.  But I'm personally comfortable with the New Testament canon as we have it, after having explored "Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden," and various other collections.  I'm equally comfortable citing those areas of Enoch, Clement, Barnabas, and other writings that add weight as early Church witnesses to other things that I'll actually be deriving in their entirety from the acknowledged canon of Scripture with it's 66 books. 

I do it rarely for credibility [and for personal clarity] reasons, but more like St. Paul in adjusting my method (but never my message) to my audience.  Online, for the most part, isn't the place for permanent documentation of giving a tad bit of credence to various extra-biblical writings as being edifying except perhaps in forums that are specifically devoted to the additional "resources."  But in a private conversation or in a Bible teaching environment in person, I'll cite what I please in laying before people evidences of what I'm saying from a particular Biblical text, but I'll work 10 times as hard to prove I'm producing Biblical thought before I'll bring in "other witnesses."  St. Paul, it can be said, encouraged establishing things through the testimony of multiple witnesses and WHEN IT WAS APPROPRIATE & WHERE IT WAS APPROPRIATE would cite heathen poets as easily and with as much freedom as he'd cite the poetry of King David in the Psalms.  If you cut very very firm lines regarding the Judeo-Christian Bible, most Christians aren't going to honestly care who else you cite all day long provided it's in such a balance to where it's obvious that your thinking is thoroughly Biblical. 

I've cited Origen in the presence of a pastor from San Antonio by the name of John Hagee, but it was carefully selected quotes about the Cross of Christ that I knew pastor John would eat up like a steak even if he'd pee on Origen's grave over other stuff.  I spoke, one time, first service at a Church I formerly attended a few years ago and Pastor John was speaking during the second service, but he arrived earlier with his entourage than he thought he would, so that's the story on that.  They set up his book table while he sat in the service.  I don't have personal phone info or any type of ongoing contact with him.  He'd look at me like an expensive urinal from 300 years ago if he were to renew acquaintances with me and discovered the blatant Universalism.  You can get away with quoting just about anything in Church or in a conversation with Christians that you're already in relationship with if they know that whatever else you read and supplement your devotional life with that at the end of the day you're the person of one Book. 

There are exceptions and most of us here have already had our ears boxed by well-meaning Christians that thought we were heading straight to Hell for differing with them on the purpose and duration of present and future punishments.  I'm well aware of that.  Sometimes I think that this whole city that I live in is a Baptist Seminary.  Though some of us have taken it on the chin from clergy, most of the attacks have probably been from sheep that heard the earth was flat and that Hell was hot for the first 20 years of their lives, so it must be true, after all, so and so was a man of God that would never mislead on the current price of bacon (although he's not a butcher...I don't think), much less on matters of such consequence.  People only know what they've been taught by man or by God.  If God hasn't "gone there" with them yet, then they've got those areas where what He has taught them agrees with what others have taught them, and they get into the nonsequitar's thing of "if we've been right about all of this in our little church or movement, then surely we're right about matters of the afterlife as well, so there!!"  Never attribute to malice what's sooo easily explained by stupidity.

[WhiteWings]

Martin,

One little remark.
I think this topic is currently still in line with UR because like many UR articles on this site it is about what we read is what God wrote/dictated.
According to those articles there ar crucial transltion errors at several places.
So I think trying has a good question; but also a qustion that got a 1000 page answer in the form of downloadeble books at tentmaker.

[martincisneros]

Martin,

One little remark.
I think this topic is currently still in line with UR because like many UR articles on this site it is about what we read is what God wrote/dictated.
According to those articles there ar crucial transltion errors at several places.
So I think trying has a good question; but also a qustion that got a 1000 page answer in the form of downloadeble books at tentmaker.

I agree :Sparkletooth:

[Paul]

This is what L. Ray Smith (bibletruths.com) says:

Would an intelligent Creator at some point in time communicate with His higher creatures? I think so. The Scriptures are unique in the world of literature and writing. There are for example, numerous laws of science presented in the Scriptures that scientists have only recently come to understand with his combined knowledge of thousands of years. Primitive writers could not have known many of the things attested to in the Scriptures.

There are hundreds of prophecies in the Scriptures that have been fulfilled in minute detail many years and even centuries AFTER the known date of the writings.

...there is more real and absolute knowledge in the Scriptures regarding what man is and how he thinks and functions in a half dozen verses than can be found in all the psychology and philosophy books in the world.

http://bible-truths.com/email7.htm#believer

[WhiteWings]

This is what L. Ray Smith (bibletruths.com) says:

There are for example, numerous laws of science presented in the Scriptures that scientists have only recently come to understand with his combined knowledge of thousands of years.

It's even said the whole Biblical genealogy represents quantum mechanics.
http://www.abarim-publications.com/GenesisStandardModel.html (lower half of the page)

The four horsemen of the Apocalyps represent the formation of the universe.

(I have the whole site organized in a Word and pdf document. Contact me if you like a copy)

[joyful1]

Hello trying! :icon_flower:
Despite, or because of, its mistranslations and mishandling, God has still obviously chosen to use our various Bibles as the tool through which to speak to us. I say "obvious" because it still transforms believer's hearts and minds and brings us ever closer to the image of Christ. I think this has to be a personal experience. You must judge for yourself if the word in written form is  indeed "transforming" you into the image of Christ. I think this begins with Him "bearing witness" with your spirit that you are a child of God.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I must testify that indeed, the Word is doing that in me, albeit, gradually, and in small steps. I was helpless to change who I was/am. I believe that the Word is renewing my mind and transforming me into His image. I believe that He is living IN me, by the grace of God. And though, if you knew me, you might not be so impressed with my progress, I feel compelled to testify that at least I am in the process of being changed in ways that I could not produce by myself.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Sorry for the length! Hopes this helps!
Joyce :)