Answering Matt Slick's article against Universalism

[pneuma]

This perspective comes from the teacher believing that they are safe from hell.   All the words of Love, all the great testamonies, all that comes from believing that they either are fortunate to have been selected as the elect, therefore safe or that they were wise enough (as compared to someone who currently hasn't accepted Christ yet) to come to Christ and that pleased God and they are safe

Hi Paul, ya this seems like alot of christians I have spoken to, I'm saved, your not, God loves me but He does not love you, but He will love you if you accept Him, if you don't into the fire with ya.

Yet I am one who has accepted Christ but because I beleive in the salvation of all according to Matt I never accepted Christ and so Gods going to barbaque me.

Their not really talking about accepting Christ, thier talking about accepting THIER doctrine, and unless you follow what they themselves beleive you are not saved but a heritic and into the fire you must go.

We have already seen Matt do this, you cannot be a christian unless you beleive in the trinity, you cannot be a christian unless you beleive Jesus physically rose from the grave etc.

They want to set the standard of what makes one a child of God and god forbid someone disagree with thier standard.

This is the exact same thing that the inquisitions should have taught us is so very wrong.

Because they to thought that unless you beleived like them then you were a heritic and that made you worthy of death, thus they killed all in the name of God. Gods going to do it, so were just giving Him a helping hand. Like father like son.

[pneuma]

Objections Answered to the paper:
Is it God's will that all people be saved?


Basically all Matt does here is make a reply to a Universalist who made a reply to Matt's paper against Universalism. As I am making my own reply I am not going to go through all this again here, as all Matt does is just reaffirm the same things he has already written to which I have already given answer to. But for those who would like to read Matt's reply here is the link

http://www.carm.org/uni/allmensavedobjections.htm

Matt closes the link by saying

This person's attempt to answer the paper fell short. It did not refute the original conclusion, but, in fact, only affirmed it. Also, something rather disturbing was that other universalists agreed with this person in affirming his "refutation" as excellent. I fail to see that with his comments.

For myself I agree with Matt here, the Universalist that made this reply to Matt's paper failed in my opinion to make his point.

That said Matt is speaking of ONE Universalists reply to his paper, even though he says other Universalists agreed that his refutation was excellent.


But Matt does not give the reader any names of these other Universalists, or for that matter the name of the Universalist who made the refutation.

For all we know Matt made this refutation up and said it was by a Universalist and that other Universalist agreed with him. I mean if you are going to quote someone should we not expect to see the name of the one who is quoted?

After all many people make an argument for and against their own belief in order to make what they believe to stand out over the counter argument.

This all said Matt's refutation of the Universalists refutation is just as bad as the Universalists, neither one of them made their points in my opinion. 

[pneuma]

A look at the word "aionion"
Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.
To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is "aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.


Matt says "does not always mean eternal", but as I have already pointed out it NEVER means eternal but is AWAYS used of a LIMITED time period ie AGE.

The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.


Context does NOT determine the meaning of the word, the meaning of the word determines the CONTEXT.


With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.
This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers.

Hardly, men like Clement, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa etc. were well versed in the use of aionion and they will all tell you that it is used in a limited sense.

It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age, does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example consider this verse that is speaking about God:
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)
The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature.

No aionion it is NOT speaking of God eternal nature here, it is speaking of God having honour and might during the ages or age-during.

Young's Literal Translation has it

16who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen.

If the reader want to see Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being, I refer you to the word immortality in the same verse, which in the Greek is ANTHANASIA and means undying, immortality, everlasting, and is NEVER used with Gods punishment.

If Paul wanted to show Gods honour and might in this verse to meaning undying or unending surely Paul would have use the word ANTHANASIA.

So as Paul did not use ANTHANASIA but rather aionion this tells the reader something.
That being, that Paul was making it clear there is a difference between Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being then to the honour and might given to Him throughout the ages.

The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator, without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion.

Don't know where Matt got his Greek athanatos from, both VINE and STRONG has the Greek ANTHANASIA, but used in the negative the word is as Matt says thanatos  and Matt's reasoning here is correct, immortality is speaking of Gods deathlessness.

But Matt tries to say ANTHANASIA is the SAME as aionion but as the reader has already seen this is just not the case. Matt must mix and match these words in order to make them say what he wants them to say, which is a clear case of handling Gods word in order to make it fit his theology.


The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal.
The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal.

If the best way to translate aionion is eternal, why is it that when one keeps to a literal translation they use age-during? Could it be it is because age-during is the meaning of the word.

Matt must really hate Young's and Rotherham's literal translations of the scriptures.

Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.


Now what is wrong with saying God has dominion through the ages? Absolutely NOTHING, "everlasting God" is literally "God of the ages".

[pneuma]

How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?
The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.


As I have stated more then once the Universlist does NOT have any problem with aionion, in every scripture Matt brings up below it is and ALWAYS will deal with a limited time period i.e. age or ages.

So lets go ahead and look at those scriptures Matt gives, but we will not just be looking at them  through the New American Standard Bible which Matt's quotes come from, but will also look at them through Young's literal translation.

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

47`Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is believing in me, hath life age-during;

John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

The scripture Matt is referring to here is actually Jn.10:28

28and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."

48And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during;


Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."

7to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility -- life age-during;

Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

21that even as the sin did reign in the death, so also the grace may reign, through righteousness, to life age-during, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."

26and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

I will also add verse 27

27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to him [be] glory to the ages. Amen.

Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."

8because he who is sowing to his own flesh, of the flesh shall reap corruption; and he who is sowing to the Spirit, of the Spirit shall reap life age-during;

1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."

16who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen.

1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"

2and the Life was manifested, and we have seen, and do testify, and declare to you the Life, the age-during, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us --

1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."

11and this is the testimony, that life age-during did God give to us, and this -- the life -- is in His Son;

The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.



Do they or do they divulge the nature of age-during damnation?
Lets look and see.

Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.

8`And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during.

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

41Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."

46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."

29but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.

30who may not receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brothers, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and in the age that is coming, life age-during;

Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."

30who may not receive back manifold more in this time, and in the coming age, life age-during.'

2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."

7as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.
_______________
All Bible quotations taken from the New American Standard Bible.

Just as I suspected every verse according to the literal translation state age-during.
Aionion  ALWAYS deals with an AGE and NEVER in the sense of without beginning and without end.

Now lets look at a few other scriptures

Romans 16:25
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Young's literal translation

25And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,

And as scripture shows aionion has a beginning does not this scripture put to flight all fancy that aionion means without beginning and without end as Matt would have the reader to believe.

Earlier Matt said that aionion was translated age here was because of context.
Yet even if context defines the meaning of the word as Matt assumes ( its really the other way around) in verse 26 this same word aionion is applied to God, and this is done in ONE sentence. There is no period after the word began at the end of verse 25 only a comma.

Thus Matt here is changing the meaning of the word aionion within one sentence in order for it to line up with his theology. Something he has been fond of accusing the Universalist of doing.

Tim.1:9, and Titus 1:2  also state aionion has a beginning, thus we have 3 scriptures bearing  witness that aionion has a beginning. Thus putting to rest the argument that aionion is without beginning and without end.

One more thing I will point out here is Matt quoted Jude 7 which states

7Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 

So if Sodom and Gomorrah are suffering torment without end why do the scriptures tell us Sodom will be restored?

Ezekiel 16:53-55
53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: 54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. 55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Is it not obvious to the reader that aionion is used in a limited sense, if Sodom and Gomorrah are to be restored after they endured aionion fire how can aionion mean without end?

[Moshood]

My understanding concerning "Eonian Life"

The saints are given Eonian Life [ Life for the Eon(s) ] and Immortality [ Imperishable Life ]
therefore, even though Eonian Life ends the saints live on because they're Immortal.

[pneuma]

My understanding concerning "Eonian Life"

The saints are given Eonian Life [ Life for the Eon(s) ] and Immortality [ Imperishable Life ]
therefore, even though Eonian Life ends the saints live on because they're Immortal.

Exactly Moshood :thumbsup:

[pneuma]

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion"
Universalists place a great deal of weight on the word "aion" which means "age." From the Greek root "aion" we also have the word "aionion" which is translated in most instances in most Bibles as "eternal."
The significance of this is that Universalists maintain that there is no eternal punishment in hell fire. Therefore, they assert that the word "aionion" is in reference to "age duration" and can have temporal duration. With this assertion they try to substantiate their theological position that all people everywhere will ultimately be saved.
But, what do Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons have to say about the words and phrases used in Greek that are translated into the English "age", "world", "eternal," "forever", "forever and ever," etc.? Let's find out.
aion - , - age, world
"for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
aionion, aionios - - eternal
"aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
Eis tous aionios ton aionion - - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
"unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - 'always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
These few references and quotes should be ample evidence that eternal hell, eternal fire, is real. It is a terrible reality and it is all the more important to preach the gospel. The universalists are wrong and their theology only dilutes the need to come to Christ.

Matt fails to realise that in each of those definitions that they pertain to an age.

The word "Aionios" by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless"--Canon Farrar -

"The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages."--Rev. J. S. Blunt-- Dictionary of Theology.

" 'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop Rust, "that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by 'olam' (the Hebrew word corresponding to "aion"), and aion mean any remarkable period or duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity."

Aionios Repeatedly Applied To Things That Have Long Ago Ceased To Exist

As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint)--in common use among the Jews in our Lord's time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point--these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.

Thus

The Aaronic priesthood is said to be "everlasting," -Numb.25:13-

The land of Canaan is given as an "everlasting" possession, and "for ever" -Gen. 17:8...Gen. 18:15-

In Deut. 23:3, "for ever" is distinctly made an equivalent to "even to the tenth generation."

In Lamentations 5:19, "for ever and ever" is the equivalent of from "generation to generation."

The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen "for ever" -Lev. 25:46-

In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant "for ever."

Caleb obtains his inheritance "for ever" -Joshua 14:9-

And David's seed is to endure "for ever," his throne "for ever," his house "for ever;" nay, the passover is to endure "for ever;" and in Isa. 32:14, the forts and towers shall be "dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us."

So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.--(Ezek. 16:55)

Christ's Kingdom Is To Last Forever & Yet

And Christ's kingdom is to last "for ever," yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.--(I Cor. 15:24) Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.

NOTE:

Thus Josephus calls "aeonian," the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.

Aion Either Means Endless Duration Or It Does Not

Further, if this translation of aionios as "eternal," in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity.

In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the "eternities." We can comprehend what "eternity" is, but what are the "eternities?" You cannot have more than one eternity. The doxology would run thus: "Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, unto the eternities."

In the case of the sin against the Holy Ghost, the translation would then be, "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity nor in that to come."

Our Lord's words, (Matt. 13:39), would then be, "the harvest is the end of the eternity," i.e., the end of the endless, which is to make our Lord talk nonsense.

Again, in Mark 4:19, the translation should be, "the cares," not of "this world," but "the cares of this eternity choke the word."

In Luke 16:8, "The children of this world," should be "the children of this eternity."

In 1 Cor. 10:11, the words, "upon whom the ends of the world are come," should be: "the ends of the eternities."

Take next, Gal. 1:4: "That He might deliver us from this present evil world," should run thus: "from this present evil eternity."

In 2 Tim. 4:10, the translation should be: "Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present eternity."

And "Now once at the end of the ages hath He been manifested," should read, on the popular view, "at the end of the eternities."

Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration as its necessary, or at least its ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise;

Difficulties

1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?

2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?

3. How come such phrases as for the "aion" or aions and beyond?--ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.--(see Sept. Ex. 15:18...Dan. 12:3...Micah 4:5)

4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?--Matt. 13:39-40-49;...Matt. 24:3...Matt. 28:20...1 Cor. 10:11...Hebr. 9:26.

5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19...Acts 3:21...Rom. 12:2...1 Cor. 1:20...1 Cor. 2:6...1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.

If Aion Is Not Infinite

But if aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms "eternal" (when used as the equivalent of "endless") and "everlasting?"

Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible.

They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of "the ages." This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios.

Turn to Matt. 24:3. There our version represents the disciples as asking "what should be the sign of the end of the world." It should be the end of the "age;" the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem.

In Matt. 13:39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the "world," but of the "age," an important change.

So John 17:3, "this is life eternal," should be "the life of the ages," i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out.

Or take Heb 5:9; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 13:20, "eternal salvation" should be "aeonian" or of the ages; "eternal redemption" is the redemption "of the ages;" the eternal covenant is the "covenant of the ages," the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption.

In Eph. 3:11, "the eternal purpose" is really the purpose of "the ages," i.e., worked out in "the ages."

In Eph. 3:21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question), by our version, "until all the generations of the age of the ages." Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering "throughout all ages."

In 1 Cor. 10:11 "the ends of the world" are the "ends of the ages." In 1 Cor. 2:6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated "world," it should be "age' or "ages" in all cases.

And here it is impossible to avoid asking how--assuming that aion does mean "world" in these cases--how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as "everlasting?" If it mean "world," then the adjective should be "worldly," "of the world." And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering "age."

-Christ Triumphant by Rev. Thomas Allin-

Here is a link to very good study about the word aion/aionion by Louis Abbott for those who want to see the absurdity of translating aionion to mean endless.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

[pneuma]

Forever and Ever
Is the English phrase "forever and ever" a proper translation of the Greek? Does it mean without end? Is it ever used of something not eternal? Does it refer to eternal torment? These questions are important because the universalist position denies the eternality of hell fire. Universalists take the literal Greek phrase of "eis tous aionas ton aionon, -- into the age of the ages" which is commonly translated as "forever and ever," "forevermore," and state that it refers to an age of time, a finite period of time.
It is true that the basic root of "aion" means age. But it is not true that all words derived from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase means "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - 'always, forever, forever and ever , eternally."'1
Additionally, the phrase is used to describe both God's eternal attributes and His eternal nature as well as eternal torment.
Following is a table containing every single usage of the Greek phrase "eis tous aionas ton aionon -- into the age of the ages." It clearly shows that it means "forever," "without end." The first two verses deal with eternal condemnation and judgment. The next 16 deal with God's Glory and honor.

"into the age of the ages"
Translated as "forever and ever"; "forevermore"
"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever," (Rev. 19:3).
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).
"to whom be the glory forevermore, Amen" (Gal. 1:2)
"Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (Phil. 4:20)
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
"The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (2 Tim. 4:18).
"equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (Heb. 13:21).
"Whoever speaks, let him speak, as it were, the utterances of God; whoever serves, let him do so as by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen," (1 Pet. 4:11).
"and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen," (Rev. 1:6).
"and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades," (Rev. 1:18).
"And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever," (Rev. 4:9).
"the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne," (Rev. 4:10).
"And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever," (Rev. 5:13).
"Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen," (Rev. 7:12).
"and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer," (Rev. 10:6).
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever,'" (Rev. 11:15).
"And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever," (Rev. 15:7).
"And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever," (Rev. 22:5).

Clearly, the phrase "forever and ever" is a correct translation of the Greek ""eis tous aionas ton aionon -- forever and ever" Every instance of the phrase shows eternality.
But, a word of caution. The Universalist may say that Rev. 19.3 is not eternal because it is the description of smoke from the City of Babylon. But, the judgment that is cast upon her is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked, indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.
The phrase is always speaking of eternal duration.
Universalism is incorrect because not all will be saved because:
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

Matt makes absolutely no point here, all he did was quote scripture and say see the scripture says eternal. But if the reader just looks up each of those scriptures in Young literal translation they will see that Matt's reading is greatly in error.  Matt further compounds his error by saying it must mean endless because the devil is cast into the fire. Seem Matt forgets the scriptures that state every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Isa.45:23, Ro.14:11 & Php.2:10 That confession is made unto salvation Ro.10:10 and no one can say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost 1Co.12:3

So again I will refer the reader to Louis Abbott link

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

[pneuma]

Scriptures that say not all are saved
Universalists believe all people will be saved. They often complain against the contrary teaching that people go to hell by posing questions such as
"Do you really believe that God is going to lose most of mankind in hell and that only a few are going to be saved?"
"If most go to hell, doesn't that mean that Satan wins since God only gets a few compared to the majority who are lost?"
Of course, these kinds of questions are the wrong ones to ask. What they are doing is using emotionalism to sway someone's beliefs.


Matt would have the reader believe it is wrong to ask these type of questions because they use our emotions, but our emotions are given to us by God and Jesus Himself used them to get us to understand the Father better.

Luke 15:4
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Can the reader not see here Jesus using the emotional plea for the lost sheep?
He say WHAT MAN of YOU, Jesus wanted them to understand the emotion that one feels towards the lost sheep.

Now take special notice of what is being said here.

The man in reference here is Jesus Christ, the lost sheep is one wondering in sin.

So who loses something here, is the loss mans soul or is it Jesus Christ's loss? 

It is not speaking of the loss of the soul of man, it is speaking of divine loss, it is speaking of Jesus Christ losing the man.

If the sheep is not found it is Christ's loss.

Does the reader really believe Jesus Christ can lose anything? Nay, the scriptures state He will go after the lost sheep until He FIND IT. Halleluiah, Jesus will lose none of which He came to save, and almost every Christian ( except the Calvinist, who believe He only came to save the elect) believes just as the scriptures proclaim He came for the salvation of the world.

So as the reader can see Jesus used emotion in the case of the lost sheep, so as He used emotion there is nothing wrong with the questions that the Universalist ask that are based on emotion.


The real reason Matt does not want the reader to ask themselves these type of question is because they will undoubtedly lead the reader to question the false belief in eternal torment.



What they should be asking are questions like these:
"What does the Bible teach about damnation?"
"Does the Bible tell us if most will be lost or saved?""Does it tell us that all will be saved?"

It is always good to ask questions and there is nothing wrong with the questions Matt say the reader should ask. As a matter of fact they are good question.
So what does the bible teach about damnation?
Lets look and see.

Matthew 23:33
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark 3:29
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Damnation in both cases above is the Greek word krisis and means judgment.
It is the same krisis used in these verses.

Matthew 12:18-20
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment(krisis) to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment(krisis) unto victory.

Here we see Gods judgment is unto victory

But what is this judgment unto victory?

John 12:31-33
31 Now is the judgment(krisis) of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33  This he said, signifying what death he should die.

It is the judgment of the CROSS for the WORLD, for Jesus said NOW is the JUDGMENT of this WORLD and this He said signifying what DEATH He should die.

Thus the judgment of God for the WORLD is the cross.

What does the judgment of the CROSS do in mans life?

It separates out of His kingdom which in in you the wheat from the tares. It separates all those thoughts which are the children/tares of the devil from the thoughts which are the children/wheat of God.

Thus all the works of the devil are burned up in the fire.

Now then does this damnation/judgment/krisis only come upon those that know not Christ? Which is what Matt would have the reader to believe.

Hardly, for this damnation/judgment/krisis is the righteous judgments of God that the child of God MUST go through. His damnation/judgment/krisis is OUR manifest token of His righteous damnation/judgment/krisis 

Token-evidence-proof.



2 Thessalonians 1:4-6
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment(krisis) of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

So then the reader can see that Gods damnation/judgment/krisis is the evidence/proof upon us so that we may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God.

And how is it we are made worthy?

By the removal of all the tares in His kingdom which is IN YOU.

All Gods judgments are corrective in nature, and it is because Matt and others like him who believe in eternal torment do not see and understand this that they make a mockery of the CROSS of our Lord.

The means to good biblical theology is to examine the whole of scriptures without bias so that proper and correct doctrines can be determined. Of course, no one is without bias. But, that does not mean that we should give up trying to be objective. We must endeavor to let God's word lead us rather than our emotionalism and personal preferences make decisions for us, especially about doctrine. At least, that should be the goal.


I agree, and as the reader has just seen Gods damnation/judgment/krisis upon His children is the EVIDENCE that makes us worthy of His kingdom.

So it would seem it is Matt who lets his bias cloud his understanding of the damnation/judgment/krisis of God and it purpose.

What matters is what God has revealed in His word. So, are there scriptures in the Bible that plainly state that not all are saved? Yes, there are.
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).
"For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).
"And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' 26"Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; 27and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).
"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).
These verses are plain and clear. Not all are saved; in fact, few are.

This is the area Matt makes his biggest mistake, those scriptures do not say not all are saved they are talking about the difference between the elect who are the first fruit or overcomes who are saved first in this age as a promise of the whole harvest in the ages to come.

These sets of scriptures are talking about entering into the kingdom of heaven by the strait gate or by way destruction. It is speaking of the difference between the overcomer and the Christian who does not overcome.
The overcomer enters into the kingdom of heaven by the strait gate all other Christians as well as those who know not God enter into the kingdom of heaven by way of destruction.
This is easily seen in Rev.2 & 3, Jesus speaking to the CHURCHES (that would be Christians) says "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."
Therefore we can see that Christians who do not overcome go through the second death, if this was not so then Jesus would not have warned the CHURCHES that they must overcome.

I am going to paraphrase Mt.7:13-14 in order to show this more fully.

As I already said it is speaking of entering into the kingdom of heaven so lets look at it in this light.

Enter ye into the kingdom of heaven at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which enter into the kingdom of heaven that way: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.  

Note: does the reader really believe only a FEW will be saved? God sent Jesus to save the world, Jesus came to save the world, but He could only save a FEW. Does the reader really believe this? Did Jesus somehow miss the mark? God sent Him to save the world but somehow He just was not able to do it. Is not missing the mark the definition of sin?
Does the reader believe Jesus is a sinner? Of course not, then is it not incumbent upon you to believe in the salvation of the world? Anything less then the salvation of the world make Jesus miss the mark. He is the saviour of the world reader, believe it.

So as the reader can see both gates lead into the kingdom of heaven, but only a FEW enter in by the strait gate, all others are hurt by the second death.

This is seen more fully when we look at Revelation 22:14-17
After everything is said and done, all judgment passed, all that go into the lake of fire already placed within we read.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Can the reader not see for themselves that those without the gates if they keep His commandments still have right to the tree of life and can enter through the gates into the city?

Who are these people outside the gates of the city?

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Can the reader not see those outside the city gates are the dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

It is to these people that scriptures proclaim if they keep His commandments they have right to the tree of life and can ENTER the city.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Can the reader not see here that the Spirit and the bride still say COME, and whosoever will can COME and take the water of life FREELY.

Brothers and sister the message is clear, until the last sheep is in the fold the Spirit and the bride say COME and take of the water of life FREELY. Praise God He NEVER gives up on us, even when we give up on Him.

Jesus first recorded words are I must be about my Fathers business, what was the Fathers business? The salvation of the world, and when Jesus laid down His life His last recorded words were IT IS FINNISHED, what was finished? His Fathers business the salvation of the world.

Now some might say if the salvation of the world is finished as you are saying how come is it that not everyone is saved yet?

I'll let the writer of Hebrews answer that question.

Hebrews 2:8-9
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 




Whether or not we think this makes God a failure, or that it makes us sad, or upsets us, isn't really that important. If the Bible says it, that settles it. What is left is to make adjustments in our understanding and feelings in order to bring more in line with what God has stated.
After all, we do not know the mind of God. His ways are higher than our ways. I prefer to accept what it says than feel my way through theology.

Well if we do not know the mind of God what in the world are you doing stating God is going to eternally torment anyone?

Matt biggest problem if he could only see it is the difference between the age we now live in to the ages which are to come. If he could understand that God is literally the God of the ages as scripture attests to he would come into a closer understanding of why indeed God has a first fruit and there purpose.

[nightflight]

I really hate the Matt Slicks of the world.  The John Hagees.  The Billy Grahams.

Spiritual terrorists, all of them. 

[Craig]

Universalists believe all people will be saved. They often complain against the contrary teaching that people go to hell by posing questions such as
"Do you really believe that God is going to lose most of mankind in hell and that only a few are going to be saved?"
"If most go to hell, doesn't that mean that Satan wins since God only gets a few compared to the majority who are lost?"
Of course, these kinds of questions are the wrong ones to ask. What they are doing is using emotionalism to sway someone's beliefs.

Matt would have the reader believe it is wrong to ask these type of questions because they use our emotions, but our emotions are given to us by God and Jesus Himself used them to get us to understand the Father better.

Pneuma, you took Matt's bait and gave the wrong answer. Those questions he poses that we pose have nothing to do with 'emotionalism'. It is wrong to use emotional appeal, but the questions, "Do you really believe that God is going to lose most of mankind in hell and that only a few are going to be saved?" and "If most go to hell, doesn't that mean that Satan wins since God only gets a few compared to the majority who are lost?"are not emotional appeals so don't answer as if they are. He is trying to set you up.

If God is all powerful, and God is all knowing, then if it is His will to save all mankind, then all will be saved in due time. If God is the winner, and Satan is the loser, then Satan will have nothing at the end, including any souls he suppose to have 'won'. This is the answer. The question does not hinge on emotion, it hinges on fact and common sense. To disqualify them as emotionalism or emotional appeals, shows that Matt either doesn't know what he is talking about or he is purposely being deceitful and hoping someone will take the bait claiming emotions and emotional appeals are legit reasons (which they are not). It is a straw man argument.

Though, it is good you go back on track, and show us the character of Jesus, who will leave the saved 99 and find the lost 1.

[nightflight]

Matt would have the reader believe it is wrong to ask these type of questions because they use our emotions, but our emotions are given to us by God and Jesus Himself used them to get us to understand the Father better.

Jesus wept.  He should have talked to Matt Slick first.

[pneuma]

Universalists believe all people will be saved. They often complain against the contrary teaching that people go to hell by posing questions such as
"Do you really believe that God is going to lose most of mankind in hell and that only a few are going to be saved?"
"If most go to hell, doesn't that mean that Satan wins since God only gets a few compared to the majority who are lost?"
Of course, these kinds of questions are the wrong ones to ask. What they are doing is using emotionalism to sway someone's beliefs.

Matt would have the reader believe it is wrong to ask these type of questions because they use our emotions, but our emotions are given to us by God and Jesus Himself used them to get us to understand the Father better.

Pneuma, you took Matt's bait and gave the wrong answer. Those questions he poses that we pose have nothing to do with 'emotionalism'. It is wrong to use emotional appeal, but the questions, "Do you really believe that God is going to lose most of mankind in hell and that only a few are going to be saved?" and "If most go to hell, doesn't that mean that Satan wins since God only gets a few compared to the majority who are lost?"are not emotional appeals so don't answer as if they are. He is trying to set you up.

If God is all powerful, and God is all knowing, then if it is His will to save all mankind, then all will be saved in due time. If God is the winner, and Satan is the loser, then Satan will have nothing at the end, including any souls he suppose to have 'won'. This is the answer. The question does not hinge on emotion, it hinges on fact and common sense. To disqualify them as emotionalism or emotional appeals, shows that Matt either doesn't know what he is talking about or he is purposely being deceitful and hoping someone will take the bait claiming emotions and emotional appeals are legit reasons (which they are not). It is a straw man argument.

Though, it is good you go back on track, and show us the character of Jesus, who will leave the saved 99 and find the lost 1.

HI Craig be that as it may, there is NOTHING wrong with an emotional plea based on scripture which is what I showed.

Just look how Jesus wept over Jerusalem, if that ain't an emotional plea I don't know what is.

So you may disagree with the way I answered bro, ( we all see things a little differently) but that does not mean I gave a wrong answer.

[pneuma]

Matt would have the reader believe it is wrong to ask these type of questions because they use our emotions, but our emotions are given to us by God and Jesus Himself used them to get us to understand the Father better.

Jesus wept.  He should have talked to Matt Slick first.

Jesus wept

Exactly NF. :thumbsup:

[pneuma]

How many ages are there?
" . . . and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come" (Eph. 1:20b-21).
This verse speaks about Jesus being seated at the Father's right hand and that He (Jesus) is above all rule and authority in this age and the age to come. Jesus' dominion will never end. Therefore, the age to come, singular, will not end either. This is why God the Father says of the Son, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever," (Heb. 1:8). Also, ". . . so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen," (1 Pet. 4:11).

Let's take a look at what the Bible says about "This Age and the Age to Come."
This Age   The Age to Come
We will receive 100 times as much as what we lose (Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30).
People are given in marriage (Luke 20:34).
The wisdom of this world is the wisdom of this age (1 Cor. 1:20).
The rulers of this age are coming to nothing (1 Cor. 2:6).
Satan is the god of this age (2 Cor. 4:4).
Jesus rescued us from the present evil age (Gal. 1:4).
The end of this age occurs at the return of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:23-24).
The tares are gathered and burned in the fire (Matt. 13:39).    We will receive eternal life (Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30).
We do not marry, (Luke 20:35).
Note that in the Greek, the phrase "the age to come" is always in the singular. It is speaking of a singular age to come where we will have eternal life.

As you can see, "this age" is obviously about the present time period because in it we have marriage, rulers, evil, etc. In the age to come, however, we receive eternal life and no marriage occurs. The future reference of receiving eternal life does not mean that we do not posses it now. 1 John 5:13, says we do. Rather, Jesus is speaking of the completion of our redemption which includes our bodies as well. "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body," (1 Cor. 15:42). In the age to come, we enter into eternity because it is when we are resurrected. This happens at the return of Christ.


Matt's problem here stems from his erroneous belief that aionios means without beginning and without end. But I have already shown aionios ALWAYS deals with a limited time period and to change its meaning is to play with words to make them fit ones doctrine.

So lets take a look at the scriptures Matt provided to prove Jesus dominion is without end and see if that is really what those scriptures say.

Ephesians 1:20-21
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

This scripture says not only in this world/age but also in that which/world or age to come.
This scripture says NOTHING about Jesus dominion being without beginning and without end. It simply is saying that Jesus has dominion in this age and also in the age to come.

&

1 Peter 4:11
11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

This scripture says Jesus will have dominion to the ages of the ages. The words ever and ever in the Greek is aion and aion and ALWAYS denotes an age.

Young's literal translation has it

11if any one doth speak -- `as oracles of God;' if any one doth minister -- `as of the ability which God doth supply;' that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory and the power -- to the ages of the ages. Amen.

So if one reads ever/aion to be eternal as Matt would have you read it then Jesus dominion is from eternal to eternal. Can there be more then one eternal? Hardly, for if eternal is without end how can there be more then one.

Both scriptures Matt used speak of Jesus having dominion throughout the ages.

Matt also say concerning these scriptures that they state Jesus dominion will never end. He does this because of the poor use of translating aion to mean without end.

But can those scriptures really mean what Matt says they do. Hardly for we read in 1Co.15:24-26



1 Corinthians 15:24-26
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

So then how long is Jesus to have dominion or how long does Jesus reign according to the scriptures?

Until DEATH is DESTORYED.

What happens after DEATH is destroyed?

Jesus delivers up the kingdom to God the Father.

This should tell the reader a few things.

First: that Jesus reign is NOT without end as He delivers up the kingdom to the Father after DEATH is destroyed.

Second: that DEATH is destroyed, it does not continue on without end as those who believe in eternal torment would have you believe.

Third: if DEATH continues without end, this scripture will never be completed.

These things should put to rest the fancy that aion or aionios means without end, for it is clear that there is an END "then cometh the END when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father. Thus the mystery of the AGES is then complete.

[Taffy]

Hi Guys...

The topic has been split and for time being placed in the members lounge AS "observation"

[pneuma]

The unforgivable sin and the age to come

The Universalists teach that all people will eventually be saved through the atoning work of Christ. Proponents of universalism must, therefore, maintain that there is no unforgivable sin. For if there were, then their theory that all people will be saved would be proven wrong.
Jesus said there was a sin that would not be forgiven in "this age or the age to come," Matt. 12:32:
"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come."
A parallel passage is found in Luke 12:10. Jesus said,
"And everyone who will speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him."
Jesus stated, in Matt. 12:32, that there is a sin that is not forgivable either in "this age or the age to come." In Luke 12:10, He says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven at all.
The universalist qualifies their belief by stating that "the age to come" is a future age which will terminate. Therefore, they conclude that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will be forgiven after the end of "the age to come." Therefore, when they say read Jesus' words in Luke 12:10, instead of them concluding that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit won't be forgiven, they conclude it will.
The important question then becomes "What is meant by 'this age and the age to come'?" Is Jesus dividing time into two periods? Are there only two ages or are there more than two? Does either or both of these ages end?
I believe that the Jesus divided time into two ages and that all other ages mentioned in scripture fall within these two over-arching categories. Furthermore, "this age" is the time period we are in now, and "the age to come" is that future time when the Lord returns and eternity begins. Therefore, "the age to come" is without end.


Didn't we already cover this? Yes we did, but as Matt likes to repeat himself I shall repeat my answer also.

But before I do I'll point out that Matt again seems to have changed his mind concerning there being more then one age. Earlier Matt complained that the Universalist breaks aion into different ages and now he says there are different ages, but of course he limit's the aions to just two. Seems to me he cannot make up his mind.

Lets look at those same scriptures from Interlinear Original Language Texts

Amen/verily I am saying to you/to ye that all shall-be-being-from-let/shall be being pardoned to the/the sons of the humans the miss-effects/penalties of sins and the harm-averments/blasphemes as much as/whatever if ever they shall be harm-averring/the shall be blaspheming

Who yet ever should be harm-averring /should be blaspheming into the spirit the holy not is having from-letting/pardon into the eon but liable is of eonian miss-effect/penalty of the sin.

Again we can see no mention of a sin that NEVER can be forgiven. Again we see EON or AGE in place of the word NEVER and we also see that it is an EONIAN/AGE-LASTING sin, not a sin without end.

Thus Matt's case for a eternal sin falls flat, what Mk.3:28-29 is really saying is that if one blasphemes the Holy Spirit one is not forgiven in this age or in the age to come.

Note: before the death of Christ everyone was under the age of the law, after Christ death everyone is under the age of grace. It is these two ages Mark is speaking of, blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven under law, nor is it forgiven under grace, for everyone reaps what they have sown. But during the age of Judgment or as some call it the millennium age those still in sin are pruned without the gate and once the pruning is complete they have right to the tree of life as I already have shown in Rev.22.

But lets just suppose there is a sin that NEVER can be forgiven as Matt says, what would happen?

Jesus Christ is then being eternally tormented for if we do not forgive men their trespasses then neither will the Father forgive us.Mt.6:15

Therefore if Jesus does not forgive us then He is not forgiven Himself and must be then eternally tormented.

But the good news is Jesus forgave even those who crucified Him saying Father forgive them as they no not what they do.Lk.23:34

[pneuma]

Eph. 2:5-7
There is one verse the New Testament that mentions ages in a future sense. The phrase is "ages to come" and it only occurs in Eph. 2:7
"even when we were dead in our transgressions, [He] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."
This statement is not saying that there are future ages, plural, which are not defined in scripture, anyway. Rather, it is a declaration that in the future state, the Christians will enjoy the "surpassing riches of His grace" -- in the totality of the future. The phrase "ages to come" is merely an expression.


It is hardly just an expression, Matt must play with words again in order to get the meaning he wants the reader to come to.

Young's literal translation has it

7that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

It is clear this scripture is speaking of future ages.


This type of usage of "ages" to describe a very long time is also seen in Romans 16:25, "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past," In Greek, "long ages past" is "cronos aioniois," which is literally "time eternal(s)".

Again and again Matt's problem is his erroneous translation of the word aionios, as I have shown time and again aionios always deals with a limited time period. And to change it's meaning is to play with words.

Lets also read this from Young's

25And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,

So the translation is cronos aionios, but cronos aionios does not mean time eternal, it means time age.

Thus in all the past ages this mystery was kept hidden.


This phrase is not saying that there are literally eternal past "ages," but that in long times past, the mystery was hidden.

Well of course its not saying there are literally eternal past ages, the word eternal is nowhere in the equation, it is however saying in the past ages. 


Other verses with the same usage of ages past are 1 Cor. 2:7; 10:11; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:26; Titus 1:2; and Heb. 9:26.
We can see from the table above, that all the ages past are under the umbrella of "this age" in which we have evil, suffering, etc.

Hardly, if all the ages past are under Matt's umbrella the scriptures would not have referred to them as PAST ages, but rather as present ages. If something is PAST it is over, Matt wants the reader to believe that PAST and PRESENT have the SAME meaning.
So not only does Matt have to play with the Hebrew and Greek words in order to get the reader to believe what he does, he now is also playing with English words after the same fashion.

[pneuma]

The End of This Age
It is important to understand when "this age" ends because it will effect our understanding of the nature of "the age to come" and further clarify that the age to come is without end.
I have compiled a chart below to make this easier to see. The left column contains the events (resurrection, rapture, condemnation, etc.). To the right are the phrases used in the Bible to describe the event. With them are the verse locations.
The Event   Phrase and location describing when the event occurs         
   End of
this Age   The Day of
the Lord   Last
Day   Last
Trumpet
Resurrection of the dead         John 6:39,40,
44, 54;
11:24;    1 Cor. 15:52;
1 Thess. 4:16
Harvest/Rapture
(thief in the night)   Matt. 13:39   1 Thess.
4:16-5:2      
Gathering of elect   Matt. 24:3,31   1 Thess.
5:2      
Condemnation      1 Cor. 1:8   John 12:48   
Wicked burned
with fire   Matt. 13:40; 49-50         
Destruction
and Salvation      1 Cor. 5:5      
Sun to darkness,
moon to blood      Acts 2:20      
New heavens and New Earth      2 Pet. 3:10      

From the above chart you can see that all the events happen at the same time. The Resurrection occurs on the Last day (John 6:39-40), which is also the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:52). The resurrection is just before the rapture (1 Thess. 4:16-5:2) which occurs on the Day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:2) when Jesus returns (1 Thess. 4:16-5:2).
It is with/after Jesus' return, which is simultaneous with the rapture, the harvest, etc, that we receive our resurrected bodies and are forever with the Lord. It is then, the "age to come." This age will not end.
It is in "the age to come" that blasphemy is not forgiven. In other words, it isn't ever forgiven.


I have already spoken on the age and the age to come, but will add this here.

The people in Jesus day were living in a transition period, that transition being that they lived to see the end of an age and the start of another. The end of the age of the law and the start of the age of grace.

Thus when Jesus speaks of the age to come, He was speaking of the age of grace to come upon His resurrection. 

It is not speaking as Matt would have the reader to believe of the age of the millennium.

That age (millennium age) is one of the ages spoken of  in Eph.2:7

Ephesians 2:7
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

I will also point out Matt's unbelievable inconsistency here.

Matt has gone to great lengths to try to prove aionios means eternal and does not pertain to an age. Yet here he is telling us that the AGE to come is eternal. In other words Matt is telling us that aion means aionios. Therefore making them both pertain to eternal in the sense of without end. Thus even in the scriptures relating to blasphemy Matt must change the meaning of the word to fit his theology. For he has just finished saying that one AION/AGE ended and the next AION/AGE is without end. By doing this he is changing the meaning of the word aion in one sentence to make it fit his theology. Which is something he say we are not to do. Talk about being inconsistent

And the word NEVER as I have pointed out twice already in the Greek is AION/AGE and has nothing to do with never being forgiven.

[Craig]

Matt has gone to great lengths to try to prove aionios means eternal and does not pertain to an age. Yet here he is telling us that the AGE to come is eternal. In other words Matt is telling us that aion means aionios. Therefore making them both pertain to eternal in the sense of without end. Thus even in the scriptures relating to blasphemy Matt must change the meaning of the word to fit his theology. For he has just finished saying that one AION/AGE ended and the next AION/AGE is without end. By doing this he is changing the meaning of the word aion in one sentence to make it fit his theology. Which is something he say we are not to do. Talk about being inconsistent

And the word NEVER as I have pointed out twice already in the Greek is AION/AGE and has nothing to do with never being forgiven.

:thumbsup:

[pneuma]

Heb. 6:6 and Heb. 10:26
There are two other verses which also mention a unforgivable sins.
"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame," (Heb. 6:4-6)
"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries," (Heb. 10:26-27).
In the case of Heb. 6:6, repentance is an impossibility with those who have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and then have fallen away. If this repentance is impossible, then so is forgiveness.
Likewise, in Heb. 10:26, "if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." The universalists want to have the sacrifice of Jesus cover, pay for, and remove the penalty of all people's sins who have ever lived. But, according to this verse, there is a point when the sacrifice of Jesus is no longer available to a person.

First thing I'll point out about these scriptures is that they are NOT speaking about those who do not know God, they are speaking of the Christian. Can the unsaved be said to be enlightened, tasted of heavenly gifts, made partakers of the Holy Spirit and received the knowledge of the truth? Hardly, yet this is the way many read those scriptures, thinking that they are speaking of the unsaved or of those who only profess to be Christians but are not. They are either trying to deceive or are deceived themselves. Does the reader really believe the unsaved of fake Christian have partaken of the Holy Spirit? Yet if the reader believes this is speaking of the unsaved or fake Christian then the reader must believe the unsaved or fake Christian is enlightened, tasted of heavenly gifts, made partakers of the Holy Spirit and received the knowledge of the truth.

So then there is a sin unto death which ONLY those who know God can commit.

This sin which is unto death is to wilfully sin against God.



1John. 5:16



16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

The sin NOT unto death are the sins that we commit because of the old man nature (law of sin) in our members.

The sin UNTO death which we are not to pray for is to sin wilfully against God. There is NO more sacrifice for wilfully sinning against the will of God.



Heb.10:26-27

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.



ONLY those who have had their will set free by Jesus Christ and come into the knowledge of the truth can commit this sin.

To know the will of God and to wilfully go against it is the sin unto death.

Think of Adam

Adam wilfully sinned which is a sin UNTO death.

There was no more sacrifice for Adams sin.

Death was promised as punishment and death came.

The only sin for which a man is beaten with many or few stripes is the sin (wilfully) UNTO death.

This sin UNTO death is blaspheme against the Holy Ghost which is not forgiven in this age or the next, but we must reap what we have sown.

This does not mean by any means that we who have committed this sin UNTO death cannot be saved, all it is saying is if you wilfully follow the old man nature instead of the Holy Spirit is that you will reap the rewards for that sin. How many times you reap that sin will determine how many stripes you will receive.


Conclusion
Therefore, the teaching that everyone will eventually be saved cannot be true.
This age and the to come are two over-arching categories that divide human existence.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the age to come.
At the end of this age, "the age to come" begins and it has no end.
Heb. 6:6 and Heb. 10:26 also show us that there are conditions of non-forgiveness.
Universalism is not true.

The only reason Matt says Universalism is not true is because of his insistence on his erroneous use of the words aion and aionous, his constant changing of the meaning of the word even within one sentence and his unclear hearing which boarders on unbelief in John testimony of the lamb that takes away the sin of the WORLD.

Reader I have given you a different understanding to all the scriptures Matt has brought up, it is up to you to decide who's testimony you are going to believe, that of John's which testifies the lamb takes AWAY the sin of the WORLD, or that of Matt's  which testifies that the lamb will bear with sin for all eternity worlds without end.

P.S. this must be just Matt's conclusions so far, as he keeps going in his refutation of Universalism, which I'll make a reply to as time permits.

[pneuma]

Does God hate anyone?
The universalists repeatedly say things like, "God loves us all so much that He will save us all"; or "He hates the sin, but loves the sinner"; or "God is love, and will not send anyone to hell."
Universalists teach that God is so full of love, that He simply cannot send anyone to eternal hell fire. It is against His infinite love. They want God to forgive all, even those who openly reject Him and die cursing God.
I must admit, it is nice to think of God's love being so infinitely great that all will ultimately be saved. Hell is a terrible place and I don't want anyone to go there. But it does not matter what I think. It matters what the Bible says.
God is love (1 John 4:8), but God also punishes the sinner and hates all who do iniquity. God is not one sided. He is not simply an infinitely loving God. He is also infinitely just. He must deal with sin. He must punish the sinner.
In the truth of God's word, we find that the Lord has provided one way by which we may be saved. That single way is through Jesus' sacrifice. For all who trust in Him, salvation will come. But to those who turn away, God's wrath abides upon them: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him," (John 3:36).
Does God hate anyone?
Does God hate anyone? The answer is yes.
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."
Are these verses hard to read? Do they make you feel uncomfortable? They should. God hates sin. But, He does not punish sin. He punishes the sinner. Sin cannot be tied up and thrown into a fire. It cannot be put in a box or glued to a stick. It is rebellion. It is rebellion in the heart. It is breaking God's Law. Sin occurs inside the heart and mind of people. Therefore, God must punish the sinner. Why? Because He is both Holy and Just and the person who sins offends God. God's Holy and Just character will not allow Him to ignore this offense. Why?....



Matt here is playing off an emotion (hate) to that which God is (love).
God is LOVE and Matt seems to want the reader to believe God is also HATE.
Thus making hate equal to or stronger then love which NEVER fails.

When people read the word hate they immediately apply it in the sense to hate with great intensity, but hate also means to find very distasteful, which is more in the lines of God very nature which is LOVE.

So God does punish the sinner, but Gods judgments as I have pointed out time and again is always corrective in nature.

What does Jesus says about hate

Luke 6:27
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

If we are to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us, should it not go without saying that God MUST do this also? Or does the reader believe we are to love and do good where God does not? Do as I say not as I do? Are we to be more loving then He who is LOVE? Of course not, so how does one go about reconciling Gods judgments which scriptures testify to that God will pour out on the sinner?

The doctrine of eternal torment cannot reconcile them, for then they must call evil good and good evil. For if God is going to eternally torment those who hate Him, that torment must be good in their eyes, for the scriptures state that God delights in the judgment of the circumcised and the uncircumcised.

Jeremiah 9:24-25
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. 25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; 

So if God finds delight in eternal torment should not all His children find the same delight? Not many reading would dare to say they would find delight in God eternally tormenting their own loved ones.

So how does one reconcile doing good to those who hate us and the delight God finds in judgment?

The answer is really simple if one can just see ALL Gods judgments are corrective in nature. Thus when He judges the sinner it is for their good and that is why scripture tells us God finds delight in His judgment on both the circumcised and uncircumcised.

God will mend and restore us in the fire of His judgment.

[pneuma]

God's Law is Perfect
When God said, "Let there be light," it happened. When He commanded that the oceans be, they came into existence. God's word is powerful. What He says is never futile, empty, or without power.

Yet when God said Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth Matt says it isn't going to happen, therefore Matt talks a good talk but does not really believe what he says.

Isaiah 45:22-23
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Matt will say something alone the lines of I do to believe every knee will bow and tongue confess, but that bowing and confessing does not mean that they will be saved, all that scripture is saying is that those people will have no choice but to bow and confess.

Matt seems to forget that confession is made unto salvation. Ro.10:10

And that Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 1Jn.4:15.


The Law is a reflection of God's character. It is pure and perfect. It is powerful. The Ten Commandments reflect God's holiness and justice. These commandments are not without punishments. A law without consequences is only an empty slogan.
To sin is to break God's Law and offend His character. To sin means to challenge His character and authority. It means you go against His word. But God is not a liar. His word is true. He has said He will punish the lawbreaker.

I don't know how many times the Universalists have to tell people this before they actually here it, but most Christian Universalists believe in Gods punishment for sin.
We just disagree that it is an eternal punishment without end. We believe God punishes the sinner in order to correct them of the error of their ways, just as any good father would correct their children.

But it does not seem to matter how many times this is repeated to our adversaries they either refuse to hear it or hear it and refuse to acknowledge it.

Matt has talked with many in Universalist circles and he is well aware of the fact that most Christian Universalists believe in God punishing sin, but he writes with the impression that the Universalist does not believe in the punishment for sin, he does this in order to get the reader to think this way so they come to the conclusion that the Universalist does not believe in Gods justice. Which is baring false witness no matter what way Matt wants to cut it.

But, praise be to God, that while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us (Rom. 5:6).

Not only for us but for the whole world. 1Jn.2:2

The belief today of eternal torment is one of separation that states, God is our God but He is not the God of the sinners. God did this for US, but not for the sinner, His promises are for US but not for the sinner etc. etc.

This is exactly the same reasoning the Israelites of old had, God is our God, but He is not the God of the Gentiles, The messiah was promised to US, not to the Gentiles, etc. etc.

And it was in part, because of the hardness of Israel's heart concerning those outside the covenant that God cast them off until the fullness of the gentile come in.

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mt.8:12

He that hath an ear, let him hear

There is no way we can appease God. That is why God became one of us (John 1:1,14; Heb. 2:17), to take our place and become sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21). Therefore, people have two options:
Trust Jesus, God in flesh, as your savior and put your faith in the sacrifice that He made on the cross and in nothing you do.
Reject the cross and let the penalty of the Law fall upon you.

Already just finished saying we reap what we sow.
Matt on the other hand only believes the sinner reaps what they sow and the Christian gets a get out of jail free card.

Let me give the reader an example:
The Universalist is always asked this question " are you saying Hitler will be saved after all the crap he did?"
The Universalist will say yes, after he has reaped what he sowed.

On the other hand lets suppose just before Hitler died he excepted Jesus Christ into his life, those who believe in eternal torment would say then his sins are forgiven and he does not have to go through the fire.

So which scenario portrays Gods justice? The one of the Universalist who states we reap what we sow or the eternal tormentist who state Hitler would not have to face Gods justice?

You the reader will have to decide which scenario fits with Gods love, mercy and justice.


Either God pays, or you do -- forever. Which will it be?

Nonsense, throwing children into the fire to appease an angry God never entered into the mind of God. Jer.32:35




"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," (Heb. 10:26). If there is no sacrifice available for you, then God's wrath abides upon you because He hates sin and your sin is not removed (John 3:36). Trust Jesus alone or the wrath of God will abide upon you forever.

The above scripture quoted by Matt proves my point, that the Christian must reap what they have sown, just as the sinner does.

Unless the reader of course wants to believe that the sinner has received the knowledge of the truth.

Matt complains a lot about context, context, but as the reader can see Matt applies Heb.10:26 to the sinner, but the writer of Heb. Says for if WE go on sinning, thus applying it to those already in Christ.

Conclusion
The sobering fact is that God is so holy and righteous that He hates the sinner (Psalm 5:5; Lev. 20:23; Prov. 6:16-19; Hos. 9:15). Some say that we should say that God only hates the sin but loves the sinner. But, the above scriptures speak contrary to that. But it is also true that He is love (1 John 4:8). It is better to accept the love of God found in Jesus than to reject it and suffer His wrath.

Already covered all this, and the reader can judge for themselves whether God hates in the manner Matt speaks of or whether when it says God hates it is speaking of something distasteful to God.

[pneuma]

Is Hell Eternal?
The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just ( Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ez. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).
The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).
Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.

First things first, let the reader be aware that the word hell used in scripture is a pagan word not found in the original language. The word hell in the original language are sheol, hades, tartarus, and gehenna. Each of these words are translated hell in the KJV and other translations of the Bible. So to understand hell one must look at each word that is translated hell for they do not relate to the same thing.

For instance those who believe in eternal torment use the parable found in Lu.16:19-31 concerning the rich man in hell to support people being tormented forever in the lake of fire. But the hell mentioned here is hades and CANNOT be the lake of fire, for we are told in Rev.20:14 that hell/hades is cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
Thus the support that those who believe in eternal torment think they find in Lu.16:19-31 is unfounded.

The doctrine of eternal torment actually comes from heathen beliefs found in Egypt, Babylon, Greece and Rome. Thus the foundation of eternal torment that we find in the churches today are founded on heathen beliefs. And all the reader has to do is to quickly scan the myths belonging to Egypt, Babylon, Greece and Rome to see this. And these beliefs of eternal torment were believed long before the time of Christ.

Which bring up two points.

First: as Israel knew of these myths, being that they were held captive to Egypt, why is there no mention of eternal torment in the Old Testament? Surely if there was any truth to the myth of eternal torment men like Moses, Joshua etc. would have mentioned it. But we hear nothing from them concerning it.

Second: if Christ taught eternal torment, His gospel was based on Egypt, Babylon, Greece and Roman myths for they were around long before His time.

Does the reader really believe the gospel is centered around the myths of these heathen beliefs? As always this will be up to the reader to decide.

There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer.
That is why the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is so important, because it saves people from eternal damnation:
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life, (John 5:24).

How many times must the word eternal/aion/aionios be covered? As I have explain more the once in this rebuttal aion and it adjective aionios NEVER mean without end but is always applied to that which is limited in duration. 

And it is because the words aion and aionios are so misunderstood that the churches have come to believe those myths of heathen origin.

Does the reader not find it ironic that those who believe in the salvation of all are called heathens by those who believe in a gospel of heathen origin?



Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.
"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).


Again and again this understanding above by Christians comes only because of the error in translating the words aion and aionios.

And this is easily seen if we look and see that people are delivered out of hell.
In Jonah 2 we see Jonah in hell, and after his repentance we see hell spit him back out.
In Psalms 86 we see were the Lord delivers ones soul from the lowest hell.
In Psalms 116 we see how the Lord delivered on form the pains of hell.

These are only a few scriptures that state hell is not eternal, for we see how the Lord delivers out of it.  Take special notice of Jonah and how upon his correction ie change of mind/repentance that he was delivered out of hell. And thus like him so to all who are held in bondage to hell will be delivered upon being corrected and have a right to the tree of life. 

[WhiteWings]

Not sure this is a read-only thread...

We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved .... Not only is God loving ... merciful ... hates sin.... God punishes the sinner
Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.

God says He's love and kindness. He (severely) punishes sin. But also is filled with mercy.
Does Matt accuse God of lying? Breaking His word of mercy? God has a split personality. God has a failing memory?

I'm a absolute scripture newbie but even I understand such things.
If you state you truly believe every letter in the Bible then you have to puzzle as long as you find a theology that uses all verses in the Bible.
All verses are the word of God. All are equally true and unbendable. If certain verses don't find in your doctrine then choose:
a] God is a liar. Or makes mistakes.
b] You don't understand the Bible.

Take your pick.

Good luck with your battle pneuma.
I think it's easier to convince a KKK priest that Negroes are better than whites....