What has the dogma of eternal separation from God done to children?

[martincisneros]

I'm starting to use the term "eternal separation" because it best describes much of the current eternal punishment and eternal death and destruction teaching that's been going on in the Body of Christ.  Not as many who hold to a version of "eternal separation" are as acquainted with the darker presentations of it in former generations as some of us would think.  It's been watered down into a philosophical thing through C.S. Lewis and various others so that the sting of the Scriptures that it was originally a misinterpretation of aren't really associated with it any more, except in the form of "proof texts" of the doctrine that never really bare any reality on the type of preaching that goes on in Churches these days that believe in "eternal separation."  Eternal Torment is seldom taught these days.  Now the idea is more of people allegedly choosing to be eternally separated from God, and I'll refrain from an explicit commentary at this point of what I really think of that error, lest it be claimed that the error of "eternal separation" must be maintained in order to maintain godly sanctification among the Christian flock by any pastors and theologians who while intellectually holding to the traditional view are lacking in passion about their conclusion which has prima facie support from the "Authorized Version" of the Scriptures.

However, whether Christians are preaching their Hell as being inherently hot, cold, or lukewarm, or like sorta waiting in an elevator or a doctor's office throughout all of eternity -- what is this doing to children to hear that God is, at last, content with the sin and misery of this world and does nothing further in trying to reclaim the lost after a certain point, but simply eternally separates them from Paradise so that He at least doesn't have to mess with them any more?  It's rhetorical to ask if it really produces the Christian world that pastors, teachers, and evangelists are eager for while they're promoting such an error, when evil men are continuing to wax worse and worse in deceiving and being deceived under the dim light and bland salt of such a "Gospel."  But what does this actually do to children?  To their relationship with God?  Their relationship with one another?  Their outlook on life?  Their passion about reaching others with the love of Christ?  It's obvious that it doesn't promote Christian sanctification to view God as being a God Who washes His hands of vast portions of humanity as though He were an Almighty Pontius Pilate announcing His innocence of the blood of the sons of Adam and the daughters of Eve.  But what does it do to people on all levels to believe such a thing of God on any level, up to and including their ability to look in the mirror with self-respect that they're in the image of this God through Jesus Christ?

[anti_nietzsche]

I was never convinced of the idea of Eternal Separation, because I felt that the passages in the bible describing damnation really meant endless suffering in the form of encompassing pain. (That is to say, I never believed in damnation with my heart, I always remained hostile to this idea and couldn't reconcile it with the God I knew.)

I know from some people that they had nightmares with this for years. Others felt so repulsed from God that they went into atheism or chose another religion (I too felt that pull). Last but not least, I think this teaching, when accepted, can have a bad influence on one's character. It may make you judgmental and generally unfriendly to other people.

Personally, it's been giving me a conflict. I was drawn to God, and in the same felt vehement opposition to this God. I felt like I must love God, without really finding in me the will to do so. It all became very stressful. I looked at other christians how they celebrated their salvation from ET through Christ, but just could not emulate that. I was less concerned about my own salvation, of which I was, absurdedly, very certain. I was more concerned about the salvation of humanity, including my own family which is largely atheistic/agnostic. It was a terrible, terrible conflict.

I've read that once in the christian church there was much debate going on between believers in ET and believers in UR. The ET believers resorted to character assassinations and other grim stuff. Particularly Augustine is to blame there.

When you believe in UR, anything sort of falls into place. The human sense of justice, and God's sense of justice don't seem to be so incompatible anymore. It's like you now have a safety net. Falling is bad, but it's not so ultimately bad anymore.

[Paul Hazelwood]

As you say, I am seeing a lot less fire and brimstone teaching as well.   I think the shift comes from a younger generation of preachers who probably are having a hard time reconciling their predecessors continual contradictions.

But after having some conversations with people I constantly hear  "but what if your wrong".

I've had ET believers state to me that they cannot argue with the scripture message I gave them, but could not agree just based on the fear of the possibility that it wasn't correct.

I honestly think that ET churches, whether they teach fire and brimestone, or whether they focus upon Gods love and goodness and just very lightly and soberly talk about hell, that there are many members of a congregation that see the terrible contradictions in teaching, but just cannot get past that one emotion of fear.   "What if I'm Wrong"

As far as what it does do?   I have to admit this, only from my own perspective.   I have to believe that God wants some people to believe this way for a reason.  Because of that I do not think that we just sit back and not continue to speak what we believe to be the truth of scripture. 

This is really hard to put into words.  I think for me I do not focus upon the effects of the teaching simply because the counter arguments are just as valid given a perspective.

For instance, lets say we are wrong for the sake of argument.   If ET is true, are we not leading people astray?  Are we not helping people become even more complacent?   Are we not watering down the importance of getting people to understand the dangers of hell?

What is a bit of depression on earth compared to an eternity without God, without hope?


I know all those arguments can be debated and worked out,  but my point is if someone takes the scriptures, applies the Christendom methods of intepretation, from their point of view the human effect universalism has on people is even greater considering eternity is at stake.

[anti_nietzsche]

I've had ET believers state to me that they cannot argue with the scripture message I gave them, but could not agree just based on the fear of the possibility that it wasn't correct.

That's really the crux, isn't it, especially if you look deeper. I really notice it within me too. All these years wherein which I based my relationship with God on fear. I just could not get past the ET thing. Every time I thought about this I could not believe anymore that God is just. Justice and ET are incompatible.

But still I am sometimes compelled to slink back into the fear. It's simpler. And one can get used to it. I think it will take years until UR isn't considered such an obscure thing. Well, in truth it isn't so obscure, there are many christians who sort of believe in UR, they just don't know how to do it based on scripture, they try to tread lightly.

But there are other people. I've met a guy once who wished God would simply be overlord and that's it, that there wouldn't be this selfless love thing. Apparently for some people fire and brimstone preaching doesn't have adverse effects on them. They're not bothered about it so much.

While that bother has to be there for someone to convert from ET to UR, imho.

[Michele]

To be honest I think a lot of ET believers actually wait to talk to their kids about Hell.  Probably because most little kids don't even know that people die yet. 

I remember when teaching children's bible class a mother got upset with one of the teachers for talking to the kids about Hell.  It's strange when I think about it now becasue I'm pretty sure that the mother believes in ET.

[Michele]

However, whether Christians are preaching their Hell as being inherently hot, cold, or lukewarm, or like sorta waiting in an elevator or a doctor's office throughout all of eternity

:laughing7:  Sorry....can't help but laugh here.  It sounds like Hell is just this really boring place.....but remember the old saying -- Only boring people get bored.  Seems I have to remind my 6 year old this pretty often.  :mblush:

[Our Wings are Burning]

This is a really difficult subject for me, because although I don't teach in my Church's children's Sunday School class anymore I still help out by hearing the kids repeat their memorized Bible verses and such.  My Mom teaches the class and will sometimes say things that make me uncomfortable like "But does everyone get to go to heaven?" and all the kids will respond, "NOOOOoooo, they need to ask Jesus in their heart."  This is true in a sense, but I still get this uncomfortable feeling and I'll sometimes get the urge to yell something like, "But does God love everyone, kids?" "YES!"  "Would God ever send anyone to suffer for ever and ever in Hell?  NO!  He loves you too much!"  I hold it in though because I don't want the parents jumping down my throat about what their kids are being taught.

I'm hoping I'll be able to make it through the summer and will then end my involvement with teaching at the church, and will probably not be going to that church at all for at least a little while (I'll be going off to dorm at college).

[Raggedy Anne]

My personal experience was that the teaching of ET or Eternal Separation was extremely negative.  I think it really depends on the individual make-up of a person as well as childhood security or insecurity.  Having come from a broken family where I felt unloved and of little value, yet being a believer in God and in Christ from a very early age, the teaching devastated me for many years.   I never go back to the fear of ET that once held me prisoner.  But it seems Satan's new thing to use for my torment here on earth is the occasional question that pops into my mind: "What if God is not Real and there is no point to our existence."  I find that thought very depressing and never had it until about a little over a year ago (I'm 45).   I don't mean to change the focus of your thread, but thought I'd mention my most bothersome thought that I struggle with.   I feel like things are just falling apart in so many ways all around that there are times that I just wish this world could hurry up and be over with.  That's pretty negative, I know, but I do feel that way a lot.  I suppose you could say I've lost my joy. 

Anne

[Raggedy Anne]

To be honest I think a lot of ET believers actually wait to talk to their kids about Hell.  Probably because most little kids don't even know that people die yet. 

I remember when teaching children's bible class a mother got upset with one of the teachers for talking to the kids about Hell.  It's strange when I think about it now becasue I'm pretty sure that the mother believes in ET.

Yeah, its funny to think there are things ABOUT GOD that are so bad that we must not tell our children about them - that we must PROTECT our children from TRUTH.  Seems ludicrous now.  Seems like such a no brainer.  I must have been pretty stupid to have drunk the ET koolaid all those years. 

Anne

[martincisneros]

I can't even begin to get into how much I was tormented by that and what that did to me as a child.  Everything was thrown in my face, from the preaching of Jonathan Edwards and other "Great Awakening" preachers that were esteemed as oracles; New Testament prophets.  Peter Cartwright, Dr. Gill, and basically anybody else you'd care to mention from the 1700s, down into the "Second Great Awakening" with Charles Finney and other preachers that were likewise esteemed a third Biblical mountain top.  I had everything thrown at me in my youth.  You'd be surprised (some of you) as far as how many and which doctors of damnation were a part of my Christian catechism.   All kinds of alleged visions of Hell were preached as Scripture and prima facie proof of the validity of eternal hell torments. 

There aren't words for the emotional deadness that that can impart at times when I wasn't filled with religious self righteousness for however long it was that certain sins didn't have power over me in my youth.  As long as God was feared, nobody seemed to care about anything else.  You had to repent.  You just had to because God was the biggest boogey man that all boogey men feared.  If enough people in the country didn't repent, God would burn all of us the way that He did Sodom and Gomorrah. 

The Blood of Christ was precious, but Hell was bigger.  Just that one reality about that paradigm should make it suspect, even if you don't yet know how to reconcile all areas of doctrine, Bible translation, your own thoughts, and your conscience.  But then again, what did conscience mean, although St. Paul's writings were filled with it.  The prophet Jeremiah supposedly pronounced a greater truth than the Gospel in hastily saying that the heart of man is deceitfully wicked above all things, who can know it? 

A pure conscience didn't mean anything in the teaching of a little kid.  Billions were going to die and go to hell, and Jesus was going to come back any second to catch away the Christians that were living right, so that God could torture the world for 7 years and for 7 years there'd be perfect peace between God and the devil (seemingly) as they both had the same agenda of pouring out their wrath upon the earth and driving men into the insanity of cursing God, while death would have fled from them.  If I go much further, I'll vomit that I ever went through all of that and nobody called Child Protective Services to come and get me out of those "Revival Services."

[Paul]

Jesus Camp is a great exposé on how it affects kids.

[HappyBoy!]

It affected me in a big way.  I remember seeing the rapture movies "Thief in the Night" and "A Distant Thunder" as a youngster.  After that, every time mom or dad wasn't where I expected them to be I was worried I had been left behind.  Once my brother even left the lawn mower running unattended, just like in the movie.  That scared me good.

There were plenty of hell sermons to go along with it.  I didn't think about what it all said about God and his Character, but rather, selfishly what I could do to get out of it. 

Regarding the "What if you're wrong" question.  It seems to me everyone has to deal with this. 

For the Catholic - "Protestants say you're not saved because you trust in works.  What if you're wrong?"

For the Protestant - "Catholics say you're not saved because you're not correctly baptised.  What if you're wrong?"

For any Christian - "Islamics say you're not saved because you believe Jesus is the son of God.  What if you're wrong?"

For the ET believer - "What you are saying about Jesus' character is that He will miss the mark and not save the world as He said He would.  What if you're wrong?"

I think we all have to deal with that question.  I started as a Protestant asking myself, "If 1.1 Billion Catholics can be wrong, why can't I be?"

Good thread - thanks.

[martincisneros]

Once my brother even left the lawn mower running unattended, just like in the movie.  That scared me good.

:mrflo: