What Defines Heresy?

[Jerm]

This is something that has confused me ever since I started believing in UR:  Why is UR considered heresy?  I just don't get it.  I mean, most Calvinists simply consider Arminians to be mistaken and in the same manner, Arminians consider Calvinists to be sincere, but mistaken.  But when UR comes into play, it is deemed a doctrine of demons that will do nothing but endanger souls.  It seems like as long as you believe someone is going to hell, you're good.  So what's the deal here?  Why do so many people consider UR to be a dangerous heresy, whereas other views are simply seen as mistaken, but heretical?

[Sarah]

I don't think most people can articulate it.  It reminds me of a book that I read when I was 17 called The Kingdom of the Cults.  It had this overwhelming pointed finger toward any group that did not believe as the author did.  I couldn't help feeling a little weirded out by how many similiarities the 'cults' had with my religion expect that 'we were right'. 

Universal Reconcilliation shakes motives to the core and puts a persons self-worth and self-purpose on the witness stand.  Why serve God if everyone is going to make it?  Why witness?   If the carrot of heaven or crowns is suddenly offered to everyone, then the true motives of my heart are revealed.  What is my purpose if not to secure my heavenly salvation and obtain as many as possible? 

After the initial shaking, we are left with our life's purpose;  to love God and to love others.

It just occured to me last night that we are to worship God.  Worshipping God isn't necessarily a mantra running in our head of adoration to God, but it is being who he created you to be and seeing it in awe.  And seeing others through His eyes and being in awe of Him through His creation.

Whereas an alternate denomination just presents different ways of looking at something.  Lifes purposes are not put on the jury stand, just denominational beliefs.

[martincisneros]

This is something that has confused me ever since I started believing in UR:  Why is UR considered heresy?  I just don't get it.  I mean, most Calvinists simply consider Arminians to be mistaken and in the same manner, Arminians consider Calvinists to be sincere, but mistaken.  But when UR comes into play, it is deemed a doctrine of demons that will do nothing but endanger souls.  It seems like as long as you believe someone is going to hell, you're good.  So what's the deal here?  Why do so many people consider UR to be a dangerous heresy, whereas other views are simply seen as mistaken, but heretical?

A lot of this comes from a bad history, as far as the denomination considered to be the Universalist in this country having merged with the "anything goes, spiritually" Unitarians.  A lot of the rest of it is that Universalists have given the impression that they ignore all other Biblical doctrine except for their version of eschatology/atonement.  Arminians and Calvinists don't spend all of their time discoursing about ET, but I surprise people over and over and over again by being Word of Faith, Postmillenial, in the inerrancy of Scripture camp, and a bunch of other things as far as affiliations, perspectives on Scripture, etc., etc., etc. PLUS Universalist.  Most Arminians and Calvinists honestly believe that your average Universalist can't get through the whole Bible without a hop skip and jump down all of their proof texts and alleged refutations of Arminianism and Calvinism.  We're thought heretical not necessarily because of how we believe it'll all turn out, but because we've never successfully and consistently demonstrated that we pay the least bit of attention to all of the other teachings of Scripture regarding our daily lives, responsibilities to one another, responsibilities to evangelism and discipleship, sanctification, etc.  They hear so little from us on those other things, so they think we're not sound in a Biblical faith.

[AbbasChild]

This is something that has confused me ever since I started believing in UR:  Why is UR considered heresy?  I just don't get it.  I mean, most Calvinists simply consider Arminians to be mistaken and in the same manner, Arminians consider Calvinists to be sincere, but mistaken.  But when UR comes into play, it is deemed a doctrine of demons that will do nothing but endanger souls.  It seems like as long as you believe someone is going to hell, you're good.  So what's the deal here?  Why do so many people consider UR to be a dangerous heresy, whereas other views are simply seen as mistaken, but heretical?

A lot of this comes from a bad history, as far as the denomination considered to be the Universalist in this country having merged with the "anything goes, spiritually" Unitarians.  A lot of the rest of it is that Universalists have given the impression that they ignore all other Biblical doctrine except for their version of eschatology/atonement.  Arminians and Calvinists don't spend all of their time discoursing about ET, but I surprise people over and over and over again by being Word of Faith, Postmillenial, in the inerrancy of Scripture camp, and a bunch of other things as far as affiliations, perspectives on Scripture, etc., etc., etc. PLUS Universalist.  Most Arminians and Calvinists honestly believe that your average Universalist can't get through the whole Bible without a hop skip and jump down all of their proof texts and alleged refutations of Arminianism and Calvinism.  We're thought heretical not necessarily because of how we believe it'll all turn out, but because we've never successfully and consistently demonstrated that we pay the least bit of attention to all of the other teachings of Scripture regarding our daily lives, responsibilities to one another, responsibilities to evangelism and discipleship, sanctification, etc.  They hear so little from us on those other things, so they think we're not sound in a Biblical faith.

:thumbsup: That's an important point! Well said!

[Our Wings are Burning]

I don't think most people can articulate it.  It reminds me of a book that I read when I was 17 called The Kingdom of the Cults.  It had this overwhelming pointed finger toward any group that did not believe as the author did.  I couldn't help feeling a little weirded out by how many similiarities the 'cults' had with my religion expect that 'we were right'. 

Yeah, my pastor had me read sections of that book after I discussed UR with him.  It didn't seem to make very good points to me.

I'm currently in a debate / discussion with someone on another forum, and I keep getting things like Universalism is an attack on the Gospel, the two aren't consistent, it's heresy, etc.

After he's repeated his same points about 'aion' several times, I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall.  I'd already established that I don't believe aion means eternal, yet he continues to harp on the fact and quote verses, saying, "look, it says aionion- Eternal!"  I'm trying really hard not to be a brick wall as well and see where he's coming from, but when the same arguments get used over and over, the discussion kind of breaks down.

A direct quote from him, "I believe Universalism is ultimately a rejection of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for a false gospel of God is nice. It removes the teeth from the Gospel and the necessity of even simple belief in Christ from soteriology. Considering that Christ Himself taught about Hell - and used the same words to describe the length of time the unbelievers would spend in Hell as He did to describe the eternity of Heaven - and considering that the remainder of the New Testament is filled with passages that teach that faith is a must for any person to become a part of the Christian religion, I believe that it is more than fair to say that Universalism is not the Gospel, and is ultimately an apostasy."

:dontknow:

Oh well, I'm doing my best, anyway.

If you want to read it, go here: http://www.tourniquetdz.net/bb3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2030

(let me know if i've said anything stupid)

[Average_Bear]

What's Heresy?

This reminds of something which I hear declared from the pulpit at the AG church,

If it's new, it isn't true. If it's true, it isn't new

Yeah, right :laugh: :laugh2: :LH: :pointlaugh: These folks strongly believe in the rapture and pre-millenialism - which was unheard of before the mid 19th century. And of course, for those of you who've taken time to study UR, you realize that ET didn't take hold until the 5th century when Augustine successfully pushed in on the church.

[Jerm]

Yeah, one of the arguments that drives me nuts is "If you're denying that there's a hell, then you're denying any sort of justice in the end.  How is it just that sinners get the same reward as saints?"  All I can think is "What do you think happened at the cross, nothing?" It also gives me the impression that someone holding to this argument feels cheated or something.

[Our Wings are Burning]

Yes, indeed.  The feeling of being cheated is a huge motivation, but you'll never get anyone to admit that as their primary motivation explicitly.  If everyone is saved, then their sense of "special worth" goes out the window, because they need to feel more special than others.

[reFORMer]

I like to say that "orthodoxy" is just the majority opinions of those who believe they should hold the microphone at any given time.  Titles of honor that men give to one another doesn't qualify as authority for me, specially when some of those are names of blasphemy because they're stolen from the only Lord to whom they rightfully belong.

What counts is this life that is God Himself coming into manifestation.  That experience often happens with people who disagree with one another on what is right to be or right to do.  It is nevertheless what we are to be pressing into.  The discernment of Him Who is made unto us "righteousness" is paramount to making progress in God and His puposes.  Our gifts and our rights have been taken and given to an elite gang of professionals.  Take back your authority in Christ!  You are a Judge of men and angels, a determiner of the course of the entire world!  What is true "orthodoxy" and "orthopraxy," the exhibiting presence of the Lord Himself with any of us, you must see for yourself.

[martincisneros]

I couldn't resist meddling with this one.  This isn't directed at Our Wings are Burning, but at the unbelieving quotation that's typical of ETers that they've encountered:

A direct quote from him, "I believe Universalism is ultimately a rejection of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for a false gospel of God is nice. It removes the teeth from the Gospel and the necessity of even simple belief in Christ from soteriology. Considering that Christ Himself taught about Hell - and used the same words to describe the length of time the unbelievers would spend in Hell as He did to describe the eternity of Heaven - and considering that the remainder of the New Testament is filled with passages that teach that faith is a must for any person to become a part of the Christian religion, I believe that it is more than fair to say that Universalism is not the Gospel, and is ultimately an apostasy."

I might say something like:

So, you're saying that the eternal security of the righteous isn't built upon Jesus Christ, but upon the security of the eternal damnation of all of those that are damned?  If we were all once children of wrath, even as the others, prior to the invasion of Jesus Christ into our lives, then what's the matter with believing that the same patience and intervention that's been worked out in our lives will be worked out in their lives?  Are you saying that the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ necessarily is opposed to the glorious Gospel?  Didn't Jesus say "Can't I do what I want with what's mine?" and doesn't the Scripture declare Him to be heir of the heathen in Psalm 2?

Does the Gospel need teeth or preachers who will share it with those that the wrath of God abides on already because they've not believed in the Name of the Only begotten of the Father?  I find nowhere in Scripture where the Gospel needs teeth.  On the contrary, I find where the Mosaic Law had not only teeth, but stones to throw and that has been taken away in Christ according to St. Paul's epistles.  The very point of Christ coming was to remove the teeth from the Word of God and to bring truth and healing grace.

Is no punishment for sin adequate unless it's eternal?  Is a child not fully spanked by it's parent unless the child is beaten to all of eternity for as long as God exists?  Or does it remove from the glory of parenting if the sentence isn't executed to all of eternity?  Will God damn a parent who doesn't beat their children for as long as He exists?  Faith is a must, but faith is the gift of Jesus Christ and not a matter of our production.  It's not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God Who shows mercy.  We're saved by the grace and faith of Jesus Christ and not by anything of our own merits.  Except Jesus Christ provides the faith, we're all lost.  This is in harmony with the Gospel.  This is the Gospel.  We're saved by the Man, Christ Jesus, according to 1Timothy 2, and not by anything of our own wisdom or any of our own inherent sufficiency.

So, your Gospel has teeth, huh?  I thought that the book of Revelation said that the curs were outside of the Holy City.  Too bad your Gospel doesn't have Jesus Christ, otherwise you'd of changed the world with it by now.  If any are saved, whether one or all, it's all by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.  The number of the finally saved does not work against the preaching of the Gospel or in any way inhibit God's glory.  That is a serious fallacy for you to assert such a thing.  All of the promises of both destruction and restoration in the Scriptures shall be fulfilled.  All of them.  How dare you to imply that God will leave any of it unfulfilled?  Every sin and disobedience shall receive a just recompense of reward, whether yours or mine.  Jesus Christ isn't a sanctuary from the consequences of sin.  All of our sins will be exposed and punished on that day.  Whom the Lord loves, He chastens -- and rebukes every son whom He receives.  Nothing of all of God's parenting skills will go unutilized.  Every letter of Scripture will be fulfilled in each of our lives, from rags to riches.  Jesus Christ will deal with all of our presumptive natures and then alone will His Blood finish it's most powerful work in each of our lives and make us all fit for eternal glory.

If we're to learn anything from the fall, the incarnation, and Paul's language of the resurrection, it's that humanity falls and rises together.  Father won't allow it to be any other way!  Why do you think He's been soooo longsuffering, according to 2Peter 3, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance?  Does this subvert the Gospel?  Then it's subverted at the hands of Jesus Christ Himself.  God will have all of His prodigals back, inspite of your language -- the language of the elder brother who is worried that he's never had a goat like himself.  What's the difference between a sheep and a goat?  A goat doesn't like the Shepherd's stern and merciful handling of all of the other sheep and goats!

[Sarah]

Yes, indeed.  The feeling of being cheated is a huge motivation, but you'll never get anyone to admit that as their primary motivation explicitly.  If everyone is saved, then their sense of "special worth" goes out the window, because they need to feel more special than others.

This is so true.  It is also true that many times we aren't conscious of our motivations.  Just as the preacher who said that hell was the 'teeth' of the gospel doesn't realize his motivation is control and fear-based.

Martin, you made great analogy in comparing the idea of an eternal hell with the justice of a parent.  The logic among those who hold such justice is that if I am going to enjoy life eternal, well then the extreme opposite of that is an eternal life of suffering.   

I find it ironic that Christ went to hell for us who believe, but ironically he isn't in hell still as the is 'the price' of sin.  Christs suffering would be a walk in the park compared to what unbelievers would suffer for all eternity.

[fullarmor2]

   I understand what your going through in your debating.  I'm sure most of us have had our times of spirited discussion with friends or family! It really can be tough. And potentially harmful to relationships if we are not careful.
Its amazing to me how big of a difference there is between believing in ET or believing in UR.  It really is a huge difference!   I mean think about how one or the other of the two view points will affect  a person who embraces it!   Everything , it seems,  that a person believes theologically is impacted by what they believe regarding eternal judgment,   whether unending or  not unending.   This is why debates get so heated.  Or why UR was banned on CARM for example. And CARM still allows Atheist, New Age, cults, Satanists, Witches,  Etc.... to discuss,  but no more UR! What does that tell you? 
   Essentially what is on the line here is,  what is or is not the correct understanding of Jesus Christ himself.  And Christ's purpose and plan for people.  And the UR message cuts very deeply into ET theology.   Its no surprise that its not received very well.
 

[Taffy]

This is something that has confused me ever since I started believing in UR:  Why is UR considered heresy?  I just don't get it.  I mean, most Calvinists simply consider Arminians to be mistaken and in the same manner, Arminians consider Calvinists to be sincere, but mistaken.  But when UR comes into play, it is deemed a doctrine of demons that will do nothing but endanger souls.  It seems like as long as you believe someone is going to hell, you're good.  So what's the deal here?  Why do so many people consider UR to be a dangerous heresy, whereas other views are simply seen as mistaken, but heretical?

Hi Jerm

Lets for one minute forget what MEN think and call heresy..or being a heretic...and lets consider what scripture defines it...

Consider the book of Titus

Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 



simply put... A heretic was one who caused division  being those who came from the circumcision....Drawing men away FROM TRUTH....now, those who drag those from the WAY, the LIFE and Truth LEAD men to death...spiritually speaking that is...One who HATES his brother really means to commit him to DEATH .....for there is NO Eternal life( christ ) in them.

Forget the dogmas of men...The only evidence we have is In Titus.....and its not that complicated.

Blessings
Taffy

[edward]

This is something that has confused me ever since I started believing in UR:  Why is UR considered heresy?  I just don't get it.  I mean, most Calvinists simply consider Arminians to be mistaken and in the same manner, Arminians consider Calvinists to be sincere, but mistaken.  But when UR comes into play, it is deemed a doctrine of demons that will do nothing but endanger souls.  It seems like as long as you believe someone is going to hell, you're good.  So what's the deal here?  Why do so many people consider UR to be a dangerous heresy, whereas other views are simply seen as mistaken, but heretical?

First off.. Hersey is just a made up word used to describe people who dont believe the same as they do. Just another label to be used to divide humanity

But if your wanting to know its because UR believe all are saved already, where as traditionalist believe some are and some arent and that saying a prayer is what lets you enter into the work Jesus did giving you salvation

[WhiteWings]

"all are saved already"

But that doesn't mean that some do and some don't get punishment/correction before entering Heaven. Whatever hell is, it's something to avoid at all cost. So living according to Jesus teachings certainly makes a diffrence.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Sarah... :hithere:

Several good observances in your post!  :boydance:

I don't think most people can articulate it.  It reminds me of a book that I read when I was 17 called The Kingdom of the Cults.  It had this overwhelming pointed finger toward any group that did not believe as the author did.  I couldn't help feeling a little weirded out by how many similiarities the 'cults' had with my religion expect that 'we were right'.

I believe that the naming of "CULTS" shall be found to be one of God's greatest "pet peeves", because all it amounts to is INVALID Judgment BY one RELIGIOUS grouping, of another...

What DIVINE directive was given BY GOD to those who NAME others as CULTS, and have the authority to determine what a CULT is?   It is just RELIGIOUS "name calling"... and is only determined by the comparision of their SELF RIGHTEOUS religious view TO the one which is determined a "CULT"... 

Universal Reconcilliation shakes motives to the core and puts a persons self-worth and self-purpose on the witness stand.  Why serve God if everyone is going to make it?  Why witness?

I love these words Sarah... Bravo!

I have spent much time over the last several years on NON-UR forums... and the first thing said is:

"If EVERYONE will be saved in the end, ...why not do whatever YOU WANT?"

My answer to anyone saying this is... you are revealing by such a question, ...that OBEDIENCE to GOD, is NOT what YOU WANT... For you therein note that there is other that YOU WANT, if your SALVATION is available without your SERVICE...

And futhermore, that you "OBEY", NOT because you LOVE GOD, but in order to gain SALVATION...  For you recommend that if EVERYONE is SAVED, then WHY OBEY?  Those who TRULY LOVE GOD, obey because they LOVE HIM... and it is their LIFE's desire to do HIS WILL, ...whatever they DISCOVER, along the way, that WILL to BE...

Those who shall give you the "why serve if everyone makes it in the end" speech... are not of the CHOSEN... they have been called... for they have CONFESSED JESUS CHRIST as Lord, but their heart's true motive is revealed in such a question...

If the carrot of heaven or crowns is suddenly offered to everyone, then the true motives of my heart are revealed.  What is my purpose if not to secure my heavenly salvation and obtain as many as possible?

This is a CARNAL thinking (not that it is yours, Sarah)... for it notes it to be MAN's WORK to SECURE SALVATION by OBEDIENCE, and by "obtaining" as many as possible...  Which shows them "working their way" to Heaven... instead of YIELDING to, and CREDITING the one which actually DOES the GOOD WORKS... from within... (Gal 2:20)

After the initial shaking, we are left with our life's purpose;  to love God and to love others.

It just occured to me last night that we are to worship God.  Worshipping God isn't necessarily a mantra running in our head of adoration to God, but it is being who he created you to be and seeing it in awe.  And seeing others through His eyes and being in awe of Him through His creation.

:clapping: :Urock: :boogie:

It is easy to see why you believe in UR Sarah... I believe that everyone who is given the SIGHT of UR... is given the true vision of GOD (seeing others through HIS EYES), which says:

(2 Pet 3:9)  The Lord is not slack concerning His promise as SOME MEN count SLACKNESS, but is LONGSUFFERING to us-ward, ...NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentence

peAce...
willieH  :icon_jokercolor: