Jesus will reign forever in the Kingdom of God, contrary to 1 Cor 15:24

[Peacetroll]

Know that Paul either wrote the following as to throw some off on purpose, or it was injected by those who wish to deceive ...either way, it is but one scripture verse a myriad of opposing scriptures stating that Christ's reigns forever in the future kingdom...

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he (Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.



What is true is that Christ IS the Most High God in the flesh....and his kingdom is eternal (without end) I give several 'witnesses' against (contrary) to the one witness given supposedly by Paul in the above Cor verse.  I am clearly stating that Christ Jesus will rule forever in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Notice how the masses did not comprehend who he actually was....

Matthew 21:9
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Who did Christ tell us he truly was?

Matthew 22
42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?


Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord('my Lord' is What David called Christ! see last verse), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.


Ephesians 1:20-22

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church

Colossians 2:9-11

9For in him (him = Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord,(O Lord is the same one David called Lord) to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Daniel 4:
2I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.

3How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

Daniel 7:14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daviel 7:14 speaks of JESUS CHRIST!  As is perfectly corresponding and in perfect agreement with the following statement by Peter.....

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:1
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

And blessed are you if you know who Christ Jesus really is........

John 20:
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[Paul Hazelwood]

For the most part I agree with this.

I am not in agreement with your comment I quoted below though.

Know that Paul either wrote the following as to throw some off on purpose, or it was injected by those who wish to deceive .

I am quoting from the transliterated scripture which to me gives a different picture

1 Corinthians 15:24

"There after the finish  whenever he may be beside giving the kingdom to the God and Father whenever he should be down un-acting every original and every authority and ability"


There is one fact,  if the above verse actually is intended to say that Jesus does not reign in a never ending capacity then it blatently contradicts scripture in Daniel 7:14. 

Even though "olm" should be eon / age rather than everlasting, the qualifier is "which shall not pass away". 

When we read in
1C 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1C 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

Once all enemies are destroyed, Jesus reign does not end, but the duties in which that reign requires will not longer be necessary.

[meerkat]

Paul

What I thought that this meant is that the kingdom never ends but his ruling with a rod of iron does end when he has put all enemies under his feet and that is the end of that age, but not the end of the kingdom. 

[Molly]

Exciting stuff, PT! 




11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

--Revelation 5



Peace on earth!  Good will toward men!

[martincisneros]

Know that Paul either wrote the following as to throw some off on purpose, or it was injected by those who wish to deceive ...either way, it is but one scripture verse a myriad of opposing scriptures stating that Christ's reigns forever in the future kingdom...

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he (Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.



What is true is that Christ IS the Most High God in the flesh....and his kingdom is eternal (without end) I give several 'witnesses' against (contrary) to the one witness given supposedly by Paul in the above Cor verse.  I am clearly stating that Christ Jesus will rule forever in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Notice how the masses did not comprehend who he actually was....

Matthew 21:9
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Who did Christ tell us he truly was?

Matthew 22
42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?


Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord('my Lord' is What David called Christ! see last verse), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.


Ephesians 1:20-22

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church

Colossians 2:9-11

9For in him (him = Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord,(O Lord is the same one David called Lord) to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Daniel 4:
2I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.

3How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

Daniel 7:14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daviel 7:14 speaks of JESUS CHRIST!  As is perfectly corresponding and in perfect agreement with the following statement by Peter.....

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:1
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

And blessed are you if you know who Christ Jesus really is........

John 20:
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

His Kingdom is a Kingdom that spans an age of ages, according to Ephesians 3:21, and not eternity by any remote stretch.  Think of it this way.  God appointed Him to reign so that He'd subdue and reconcile sinners.  Saying that He reigns forever, even under your paradigm, means that there never comes a close to His subduing and reconciling of sinners.  It's self-defeating even to your paradigm.  1Corinthians 15:28 says when all things are subdued, in the way that He's subdued to the Father, then God will be all in all, and will alone reign by consequence.  His Kingdom ends as surely as ours does, since the saints only reign as His image.  The Father alone will be all in all.

[Molly]

23But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming.

24After that comes the end (the completion), when He delivers over the kingdom to God the Father after rendering inoperative and abolishing every [other] rule and every authority and power.

--1 Cor 15



"the end (the completion)"

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

[Molly]

Isaiah 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.




20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.["aion aion"]  Amen.

--Eph 3

[martincisneros]

23But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming.

24After that comes the end (the completion), when He delivers over the kingdom to God the Father after rendering inoperative and abolishing every [other] rule and every authority and power.

--1 Cor 15



"the end (the completion)"

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Telos can also be translated as completion, as the Amplified Bible points out, meaning that all of those who've not been made alive up until then would then be made alive.  Check out how "telos" is used in the Septuignt and in the Greek Classics for countless examples of it meaning "the rest."  Because it does flat out mean "everybody else" in this passage in 1Corinthians 15.  And from the bottom of my heart, I genuinely would love for you to be able to find rest in that, once you've verified that for yourself.  Your definitions are simply incomplete.  Telos is one of those words like agapeo or like soteria, or like Hesed in Hebrew, that is soooo big that you're studying that one for a while to get to the bottomline on the appropriate meaning in the context under discussion.  The idea of "telos" is more akin to accomplishment, taking it's idea more from the intent of the one under discussion than how things may appear to anyone else.  This is one of those sticky words that forces you to either choose UR or a Hyper-Calvinistic double-election, because in this instance in 1Corinthians 15 is the implication that all are saved at that point that were intended to be saved.  In this passage, it takes it's force from the intent of the Father and of Christ and not from a nonsequitarian argument that because we don't yet see all sanctified, therefore all shall never be sanctified.

As far as your quotation of Ephesians 3:21 from a bad translation, like the NKJV or whatever that's from:

aion ton aiona can't be properly translated as "world without end" as aion ton aiona would have been understood between the 5th century BC and the 5th century AD.  That is a word game out of the Reformation that got so embedded into theology as theologians were transitioning from the Latin back to the Greek of the New Testament and early Church Fathers that now in modern English Greek "aion" means eternal.  But it didn't mean that 2000 years ago in a single instance.

As I noted on another thread, regarding the power of theologians to shape language over the centuries, (can't remember which thread), the Rabbis did the same thing to where now Isaiah 7:14 is in dispute among them because they've recrafted Hebrew to where "almah" no longer means "virgin," as that was it's only meaning to the time period that Isaiah wrote to and that would have been the only first century understanding of it.  The other word they contend for that would have meant "virgin" (according to them) actually means a "widow" ("Bethulah," if I remember right without notes or finding my old comment on this), so ah-well....God bless the theologians of the Judeo-Christian faith for having confused everybody :laughing7:

age or even ages and eternity are opposites.  There is not a single language that you can point to where any single word means both one thing and it's diametric opposite by itself depending on arbitrary context.  That's a theological shell game as the old Latin theology tried to deal with the return to the Greek during the Reformation.  Your only conceivable genuine objection to that is the passage in Romans 16 about God being the God of the ages, which means that He's working out the redemptive purposes of the previous 15 chapters through the ages and not through eternity.  He's called the Immortal God elsewhere, which is stronger in the Greek, but there's not a single reference to Immortal punishments.



My silly butt wrote modern English when aion's not an English word, hence the edit...

[Peacetroll]

Revelation 21:22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Jesus Christ is the Glory of God. World without end. The only true God and Savior.
God is Love--

John 15:12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Jesus Christ, the new Adam, the first born Son of MAN, which is in heaven, and all who are in Him when this is over are the rest of the family.

Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name [MAN] one.

  Jesus Christ, the beginning of the creation of God, MAN.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

[Molly]

Thanks, Martin.

I was looking and looking at that last night.  All of a sudden I was seeing ["the completion"] telos as being the beginning, not 'the end.'   I was seeing it as the goal of the age and ages that have come before--to produce this outcome, --the Father's kingdom being complete and finished--without spot or blemish, if I could say that, like Christ himself.  No more of this nonsense that we have to put up with today,-- the strife caused by so many competing and sinful and willful elements.  Thus, 'world without end' was meaning to me, --'now the good stuff starts,'-- because everything of Christ is so good and so wonderful, and to have nothing else detracting from it would be heaven.  Paul does not really go into detail about how this occurs in 1 Cor 15: 23-24 (except in a general way of Jesus abolishing everything contrary to it) , or what it will look like when it occurs, --which he puts under the big umbella of 'the end,'-- telos.   Thus I don't think you could safely build a theology like Calvinism or UR on this passage.  It's too open ended (not the whole story).

I'm using E-sword, which is easy to use, but maybe not as deep as it should be.  Yet, I find it helps a lot because English is such a crude and inaccurate language.  I think you are saying that 'world without end' does not mean 'eternity,' yet for me it hardly matters at this point, because the span of time that ages and ages could possibly encompass is already so huge as to be not meaningful to my human mind.  I see it as time going on until the concept of time itself becomes meaningless. 

Paul is saying the same thing in 1 Cor 15  as Isaiah 45 really.  Once God's kingdom is complete--the 'end' (telos)--we then go forward from there--'world without end.' But, the question of how the kingdom becomes completed (and who is in it) is where all the theological sparring occurs.



15Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

16They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

17But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

19I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.--Isaiah 45

[Paul Hazelwood]

I personally am seeing how scripture tells the story without contradicting. At this point find no evidence that anyones words in the bible have been said in the past or allowed in the canon to deceive us.  If that is true then we cannot trust any of it.   Some people seek various methods to try to show the scriptures cannot be trusted as we have them now today.

I find no reason to not believe scripture, since any attempt so far to show this has been met with better supporting evidence to the contrary.


In daniel,  if we take the position that age / ages is the proper wording we are still left with the uncontested translation of the phrase "which shall not pass away".

If we take a look at the word reign,  there is a part of reigning that requires action.


If reigning over a kingdom is for the purpose of defeating enemies, then what action will be required once all enemies are destroyed?   I think the scriptures are telling us that Jesus will always be known to reign, but the actions of his purpose are no longer necessary.

[laren]

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 

[Peacetroll]

Right on Paul!  You've got it.

And Laren...Absolutely correct.

Jesus Christ's words will never pass away. His word IS the authority on all things contained in the scriptures.
As for no contradictions, under the old covenant with Death they are everywhere. Saying that the children's teeth would not be set on edge when their father had eaten sour grapes, sinned, and much later in time holding the children of those who offended to the third and fourth generation.
In the old testament repenting of what God said He was going to do is everywhere. And no forgiveness. Remember this scripture?

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

In the new also, in the writings of Paul, for his stated purpose, to be a deciever yet true, for the elects sakes. All part of the plan.
Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and forever. No repenting, no contradictions. A just God and the savior.


Again, another contradiction I would like to bring to your attention:

Ezekiel 14:14
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

We see here that this Lord God is saying these 3 men are saved by 'their own righteousness'!

Is this in line with other scriptures?

Lets see..

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

There is only righteousness for anyone IN Christ through faith...

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

No one is righteouss but he.

[jabcat]

I personally am seeing how scripture tells the story without contradicting. At this point find no evidence that anyones words in the bible have been said in the past or allowed in the canon to deceive us.  If that is true then we cannot trust any of it.   Some people seek various methods to try to show the scriptures cannot be trusted as we have them now today.

I find no reason to not believe scripture, since any attempt so far to show this has been met with better supporting evidence to the contrary. 

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 

:thumbsup:, Thanks for meeting the need of pointing out the necessity of seeing things in context.  Otherwise, we can end up with this...."ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." – 2 Timothy 3:7

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

No one is righteouss but he.

IMO, this seems like a pretty good conclusion.  Hopefully, continued textual criticism is not the goal, PT. 

[meerkat]

PT

Ezekiel 14:14
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

We see here that this Lord God is saying these 3 men are saved by 'their own righteousness'!

You have inserted own into that text.  Their righteousness was not their own it was their righteousness due to their faith in God. 

[martincisneros]

Thanks, Martin.

I was looking and looking at that last night.  All of a sudden I was seeing ["the completion"] telos as being the beginning, not 'the end.'   I was seeing it as the goal of the age and ages that have come before--to produce this outcome, --the Father's kingdom being complete and finished--without spot or blemish, if I could say that, like Christ himself.  No more of this nonsense that we have to put up with today,-- the strife caused by so many competing and sinful and willful elements.  Thus, 'world without end' was meaning to me, --'now the good stuff starts,'-- because everything of Christ is so good and so wonderful, and to have nothing else detracting from it would be heaven.  Paul does not really go into detail about how this occurs in 1 Cor 15: 23-24 (except in a general way of Jesus abolishing everything contrary to it) , or what it will look like when it occurs, --which he puts under the big umbella of 'the end,'-- telos.   Thus I don't think you could safely build a theology like Calvinism or UR on this passage.  It's too open ended (not the whole story).

I'm using E-sword, which is easy to use, but maybe not as deep as it should be.  Yet, I find it helps a lot because English is such a crude and inaccurate language.  I think you are saying that 'world without end' does not mean 'eternity,' yet for me it hardly matters at this point, because the span of time that ages and ages could possibly encompass is already so huge as to be not meaningful to my human mind.  I see it as time going on until the concept of time itself becomes meaningless. 

Paul is saying the same thing in 1 Cor 15  as Isaiah 45 really.  Once God's kingdom is complete--the 'end' (telos)--we then go forward from there--'world without end.' But, the question of how the kingdom becomes completed (and who is in it) is where all the theological sparring occurs.



15Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

16They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

17But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

19I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.--Isaiah 45

:goodpost: Molly,

I guess I'd be considered a Universalist, although I shiver sometimes at the label because of the label's association with all things Unitarian these days, including the new age.  But as a Universalist, being totally conscious of all of these references to ages from Genesis to Revelation and believing that the Glory of God, the eternity of His Throne, the blessings of Redemption, etc., are built upon other language of greater permanence than derivates of olam and aion.  One thing that's been growing abundantly clear to me, since I am used to looking at all of these passages as related to "ages," is that I'm starting to see the doctrine of the ages in Scripture not just as giving us a dispensational way of looking at things, that we have periods of blessing and cursing; reward and punishment, followed by the Restoration after all of the destruction has had it's season because the sentence of the law has been executed to the last letter of it's jurisdiction and just demerit against our sins (Romans 6:23) -- I don't see all of these age references as being limited to giving us time intervals any more, within which God's acheiving His purposes.  They obviously include that, in many if not all instances, but I'm starting to see them as being inclusive of the enormity of the inheritance that's ours in Christ, since Astronomy teaches us that time and space are interchangable.

[martincisneros]

As for no contradictions, under the old covenant with Death they are everywhere. Saying that the children's teeth would not be set on edge when their father had eaten sour grapes, sinned, and much later in time holding the children of those who offended to the third and fourth generation.
In the old testament repenting of what God said He was going to do is everywhere. And no forgiveness. Remember this scripture?

Actually, the passage in Jeremiah 31 is relating to the New Covenant that under the new covenant the children's teeth would not be set on edge when their father had eaten sour grapes.  And the third and fourth generation reference to punishments (which hopefully doesn't totally escape your notice -- third and fourth generation, not eternally :Sparkletooth: ), that's straight from the Mosaic Law, the dispensation of condemnation -- the ministry of condemnation, which is the basis of all judgment in the Scriptures.  The ministry of righteousness exceeds it in glory, according to 2Corinthians 3, which is what you read in Jeremiah 31 that the children aren't taking the heat for their parents.  Not forgiven in this age or in the age to come is a reference to the third and fourth generation principle from Moses that Jesus was going to the Cross for, in order to bring about Jeremiah 31 and the City made without hands, Whose Builder and Maker is God.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

I don't see your point in this Scripture.  Proverbs says that a man forms his plans, but God directs His steps.  This is perfectly consistent with this passage in Isaiah that you've mentioned.

Again, another contradiction I would like to bring to your attention:

Ezekiel 14:14
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

We see here that this Lord God is saying these 3 men are saved by 'their own righteousness'!

Is this in line with other scriptures?

Lets see..

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

There is only righteousness for anyone IN Christ through faith...

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

No one is righteouss but he.

Yeah, you really are reading their own righteousness into the passage when if you examine each of their lives the Lord was their righteousness and there was no feigned righteousness on their parts.  As far as that passage, God was highlighting a particular judgment, and not the so-called "last judgment" when He was talking about these men could find deliverance in a generation like He was addressing, but they couldn't help anyone else within that generation that was going to face the judgment that God was specifically speaking to back then that they did face and come through a horrendous judgment.  It's contextual for back then because it was all about to hit the fan, and apparently the degree of their wickedness meant that it was impossible to reclaim them from their wickedness apart from destruction (Psalm 90:3; Psalm 103:4).  I don't know as much about Ezekiel as I wish that I did.  He may have even been specifically speaking of the Babylonian captivity that they were about to be freed from.  'Cause I think I've heard it said that Isaiah was written prior to that captivity, that Jeremiah was written during that captivity, and that Ezekiel was written as they were about to come out of that captivity.

As far as your quotation of Romans 3:10-11, that was specifically a reference to the hardened Jews of Paul's day that had to face 70AD because they wouldn't repent.  They were the "none righteous, no, not one."  We're seeking after God, aren't we?  Then Romans 3:10-11 isn't universally applicable.  As far as none being righteous, righteousness is the free gift of God's grace in Romans 5, and those who are new creatures in Christ are the righteousness of God in Christ according to 2Corinthians 5:17-21.  Noah, Daniel, and Job obviously weren't walking in that back then, yet they were far enough along in their walk with God that God was saying that if they were miraculously living in the wicked generation that He was about to judge in that passage in Ezekiel that you've brought up, then their intercessions would deliver their own lives alone.  They lacked what Christ would bring that would be the power to transform and to conform all things into His own image (Philippians 3:21).

[Peacetroll]

Good grief, I know they were from the old covenant, and there are many contradictions. The teeth on edge had NOTHING to do with the testament of Jesus Christ.

Can't you see that their own righteousness means their OWN righteousness under the old covenant as that was what they were all under? :sigh:

[martincisneros]

Good grief, I know they were from the old covenant, and there are many contradictions. The teeth on edge had NOTHING to do with the testament of Jesus Christ.

So are you saying that you don't believe that the Old Testament prophesied about the New?  And if you grant that it prophesied about the New, is it not possible that this resolves many of your thoughts about contradictions in the Bible?

Can't you see that their own righteousness means their OWN righteousness under the old covenant as that was what they were all under? :sigh:

I was just saying that the passage in Romans 3:10-11 was contextually about the Jews of Paul's day who were rejecting the Gospel -- whether his or the preaching of ANY of the Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers of the day.  The context for Romans 3:10-11 began with the second chapter where he was beginning his discourse to those Jews who prided themselves on their understanding and adherence to the Law.  And he quoted from the Psalms in Romans 3 to essentially say that they were all a bunch of phonies.  He definitely wasn't implying that he didn't seek after God in the assertion that "none seek after God" in what he was quoting from the Old Testament, as though it were universally applicable.  That's all that I'm saying.

[Peacetroll]

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[/color] Ofcourse they testified that He, Jesus would come. But almost all of it is under the ministration of Death. You can find all of the things concerning Jesus in the old if you can descern good and evil, Light speaking, and Darkness speaking. Other wise one has confusion of faces as Isiah said about knowing the face of God.

[martincisneros]

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[/color] Ofcourse they testified that He, Jesus would come. But almost all of it is under the ministration of Death. You can find all of the things concerning Jesus in the old if you can descern good and evil, Light speaking, and Darkness speaking. Other wise one has confusion of faces as Isiah said about knowing the face of God.

In what you've said here, we're in total agreement. :cloud9:

[reFORMer]

Know that Paul either wrote the following as to throw some off on purpose, or it was injected by those who wish to deceive ...either way, it is but one scripture verse a myriad of opposing scriptures stating that Christ's reigns forever in the future kingdom...

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he (Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.



What is true is that Christ IS the Most High God in the flesh....and his kingdom is eternal (without end) I give several 'witnesses' against (contrary) to the one witness given supposedly by Paul in the above Cor verse.  I am clearly stating that Christ Jesus will rule forever in the Kingdom of Heaven.

What peacetroll has not recognized here is what God is like.  This has lead to his error, denying the Sacred Scripture and preferring his own imagination instead.  To revile some of God's very ultimates being brought into view is such arrogance and is really quite shamefull.

In this revelation, Paul by the Holy Spirit says, (1 Co 15:24 CLV):  "...thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."  While it continues, going into, "...placing all His enemies under His feet," I am certain that it is not only enemy sovereignty, enemy authority and power that are in view, though that is included.  What we are coming to is where there is no sovereignty but the many membered Son in Whom we will fully be and Who will fully be in us.  We are coming to where there is no authority and power except the many membered Son Himself and we are in total union with Him.  This entity will subject all to itself.  Then He gives "up the kingdom to His God and Father."  "...that God may be All in all" (vs. 28)

When, "The earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" (Hab 2:14) and it is fulfilled, that He has, "...ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things" (Eph 4:10), then everything will by nature be perfect and will freely do everything perfectly.  With all existing completely filled with God and immersed in God, nothing will have to rule and nothing will need to be instructed or ruled over in the "glorious liberty" that is opened already in the ascended Jesus.  Paul in Romans 8 includes all creation in this "glorious feedom of the children of God."  This freedom is why "every sovereignty and every authority and power" has to be eliminated, even that of The Sonship Realm.  Sovereignty, authority and [it's] power imply something external to another, subject to another.  This will cease in the Absolute Liberty inherent in Total Oneness.

(It's so glorious just to describe even this little bit I can almost not endure it!)

[Molly]

Yes,  too much to comprehend really.  Jesus gives us a glimpse of it.


1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.--Matt 17



"transfigured"

G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-fo'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure, transform.



.... we shall all be changed. (1 Cor 15:51)

[Peacetroll]

Jesus Christ is the Head of the body forever. If you are not a member of that body, where He will be all and in all, you will not exist, as you have been metaphoricaly cast into the outer darkness, Death forever. Won't happen to any decendant of Adam who was given the breath of life from the Lord. Those who will be cast out came from that spirit. Darkness. The one who wants to destroy humanity.

Luke 9:54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

[reFORMer]

Jesus Christ is the Head of the body forever. If you are not a member of that body, where He will be all and in all, you will not exist, as you have been metaphoricaly cast into the outer darkness, Death forever. Won't happen to any decendant of Adam who was given the breath of life from the Lord. Those who will be cast out came from that spirit. Darkness. The one who wants to destroy humanity.

According to Ephesians 1:9-11 "...the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)" (vs.9) is, "To head up THE ALL in the Christ." (vs.10)  When all has been subjected to Him it is important to continue on into the manifestation of God as God has made known in, "...saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is OUTSIDE OF HIM Who subjects all to Him." (1 Co 15:28)  Therefore, subsequently He must give "up the kingdom to His God and Father" (vs.28) because nothing will remain outside Him.  For a Royal Priesthood to be reigning over others there must be a subjecting of those beneath and external to who rules.  This must cease when consumed by God.  With no kingdom there can be no royalty, no kings.  Priestly intercession is between two; but, the two must be made one. Intercession defines boundaries that must not prevail against the consummation.  Of necessity there can be no more Royal Priesthood because of the freedom of the glory!  "Whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him," and it is so, '...that God may be All in all" (1 Co 15:28) which is "INWARDLY AND OUTWARDLY:  THE DEIFICATION OF EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE."

TOTAL LIBERTY!!!