Never/Aion

[Boe]

in John 11:26:

and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Now I think the word for never here is "aion"

What aion does this refer to?
It's very frustrating when I see the word "never" because I do not know specifically what it is referring to.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Boe!   :welcome: to Tentmaker! :hithere:

in John 11:26:

and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Now I think the word for never here is "aion"

What aion does this refer to?
It's very frustrating when I see the word "never" because I do not know specifically what it is referring to.

NEVER is an unfounded English term and is actually quite BOGUS!  For there is NOTHING that can be considered as "NEVER"... it just proposes misunderstanding...

ALL those who JESUS spoke to in the above verse, ...DIED (physically)... therefore the word NEVER in His statement, either meant...

:mnah:   (1) no DEATH at all shall occur for them...  :mnah:  ...or
:mnah:   (2) will not remain DEAD on a continuing basis (eternally)...   :mnah: ...or
:nod:  (3) that they would not EVER die again SPIRITUALLY... for BELIEVING and confessing, has resurrected them from "SPIRITUAL death"...  :nod:

There are TWO DEATHS that ALL DIE...

The 1st Death is of SPIRIT, which CHRIST died (to redeem us from) ...FOR US ALL... 

The 2nd Death is of PHYSICAL, which we ALL DIE for ourselves... (which He did NOT die to redeem us from - for FLESH & BLOOD shall NOT INHERIT the Kingdom of God)

I prefer #3 as the proper understanding of the word (aion) which was translated NEVER... for in observing LIFE... each human being at least dies PHYSICALLY, so He could NOT have been eliminating the DEATH of the FLESH for it not only occured to those He spoke to, but this DEATH, ...continues to occur for EVERY HUMAN BEING...

When we believe Him to be speaking of #3 above... the word NEVER can be understood EVER... and the RESURRECTION of the SPIRIT is then found in the RESURRECTED LIFE of CHRIST, in which there is NO DEATH...

Hope this does not sound confusing Boe...  :blush: it is hard to put into words...  :mblush:

pEAce...  :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS...willieH :gamer:

[Craig]

NEVER is an unfounded English term and is actually quite BOGUS!  For there is NOTHING that can be considered as "NEVER"... it just proposes misunderstanding...

When can you go back in time and change your mistakes? NEVER.
Can you dictate what God does? NEVER.
How long does it take to be perfect within your own power? NEVER.
Never is a real word, it isn't bogus.

As for the AION and NEVER, there is at no time in any age, that you will die if you trust in the Lord. The phrase in John 11, is "ou me eis aion apothnesko". If we translate it word for word, it say ou me="no, not" eis="in, to, into, toward, against, etc." aion = "Age" Literally says, "No no in age" Which makes no sense in English.

It actually says in Greek. "Never at any span of time."

So
John 11:26 says,
And everyone who lives and believes in Me will 'never at any span of time' die. Do you believe this?"

Just as
John 3:16 says
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not die but have eternal life."

Never does mean never.

[Boe]

Thank you both. :-)

Never does mean never.

This is quite suprising, I didn't think Universalists thought this.
This does raise problems though, because in Mark 3:28-29 most translations use the word "never" and it is used in a way which would refute the universalist position.

[SeekerSA]

This is quite surprising, I didn't think Universalists thought this.
This does raise problems though, because in Mark 3:28-29 most translations use the word "never" and it is used in a way which would refute the universalist position.

Mar 3:28  Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29  But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

never forgiveness,^{3756, 859, 1519, 165}

phrase comes from 4 words

aiōn is but one.

eternal¹⁶⁶ damnation:²⁹²⁰

G166 αιώνιος aiōnios ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

G2920 κρίσις krisis kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

So what is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Comes from this clue.

Mar 3:30  Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Attributing the workings of the Holy Spirit to the workings of satan.

Eternal damnation, don't think so but this is a topic on it's own, word choice to support the RCC hell doctrine IMO.

BIC

[Craig]

Thank you both. :-)

Never does mean never.

This is quite suprising, I didn't think Universalists thought this.
This does raise problems though, because in Mark 3:28-29 most translations use the word "never" and it is used in a way which would refute the universalist position.

Mark 3:28-29
I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Since no interpretation of prophesy or Scripture on is it's own. We have to look at what that means in a whole.

The never, once again is: ou eis aion

It means never at any span of time. It is a noun phrase that truly is never in the very essense of the word.

The key is this noun phrase, ETERNAL SIN. Eternal sin is: aionios krisis

Some AIONIOS history:
When it comes to AIONIOS, we all know there is war over this word. Many people do not understand aionios, and continue to make the mistake that it means perpetual duration, or as some insist, something that only lasts an age. The problem with these two definitions is both are correct depending on the noun aionios is describing. Adding aionios to any word, creates a noun phrase which tells us that the duration of that noun will last until that noun is no more. So, AIONIOS ZOE, means life never ends. AIONIOS KOLASIS, means correction has an end. So the key here is AIONIOS KRISIS, or Judgment which lasts as long as judgment lasts.

So now here is the literal translation:
"Whoever blasphemies against the Holy Spirit will "never at any time" be forgiven, he is guilty of "judgment which lasts as long as it lasts.""

So explaining it, I will tell you, they will not be forgiven they will and must enter aionios krisis. If they are forgiven, then there can be no entering into judgment. If he endures judgment, when he is forgiven, then the judgment is unjust. Does the judgment last perpetually? No, all judgment serves a purpose and all things end in God, who is the Alpha and Omega. Therefore, judgment ends in God, and all who fell under Judgment are reconciled by the one who took upon Himself the judgment of all mankind, a ransom to be testified in due time.

So lets continue; next, we need to know who Jesus was talking about. As SeekerSA shown us earlier:

Mark 3:30  Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Who is they?

Mark 3:22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem

It was talking about the Saducee and Pharisee, the teachers of the Law of God. They were the moral authority in the spirituality of Israel.

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

So let me sum this up for you.

Mark 3:28, 29, Jesus was talking about the Pharisee's rejection of Jesus being the Son of God, as testified by the Holy Spirit. They rejected the testimony of the Holy Spirit, and were fulfilling the judgment of Gehenna against them. Jesus was confirming, testifying, concerning the previous judgments by Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc, a judgment called Gehenna, which was prepared for Israel because of their sin.

It is a sin which could not and will not be forgiven, beause they have to go through the judgment in order that the world will be reconciled. It is never forgiven because this sin brought about the judgment which RECONCILED THE WORLD! It lasts until all come to the acceptance of this wonderful fact, Jesus is the Savior of all mankind. In the end, as you know, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, in heaven, on earth and under the earth, that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of the Father.

So there is no controversy, just misinterpretation of this passage.

Never means never.

[Craig]

For those who missed it.

Mark 3:28-29
I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

It is good for all mankind, that Israel was never forgiven for blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It is because of their rejection of Jesus Christ and the Testimony of the Holy Spirit, that reconciliation of the world has come. In the end, that judgment lasts until all have come to acceptance of the knowledge of Jesus Christ, and we all know Scripture testifies, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. That acceptance brings Israel out of that judgment and into life.

The 'never' does means never, they will not be forgiven because to forgive them would nullify the judgment, and without that judgment, salvation would not have come to the Gentiles. Never is not a bad word, sometimes never is a necessity in the bigger picture. So that eternal sin, lasts until they accept the Testimony of the Holy Spirit. Everything from the Law and the Prophets spoke concerning this promise, that promise is salvation comes through none other than Jesus Christ, a righteousness that comes by faith, of which all mankind will one day accept.

If we did not know that eternal sin would result in salvation for all, we would read, Mark 3:28-29 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.", in horror. The reality is, those who trust in the Lord will not be ashamed, which means, those who did not, must be and who Jesus was talking about, and concerning was not the gentile people who did not have the truth, but Israel, the lost sheep who had the truth and were fallen away, cut off from God.

Isaiah 45:23-25
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.'
All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Brother C... :hithere:

As is usually the case, we find disagreement... but thats okay... I don't mind corrections for that is how I learn...

As for the ENGLISH WORD Never...

NEVER is an unfounded English term and is actually quite BOGUS!  For there is NOTHING that can be considered as "NEVER"... it just proposes misunderstanding...

When can you go back in time and change your mistakes? NEVER.

Correct, but CHRIST ...DID... correct those mistakes!  The application of never here is applicable only to the finite... which presently, I AM, however, we are all destined to be INFINITE once TIME ENDS... Which is the binding force of NEVER... For NEVER is a term which, when properly applied means AT NO ...TIME...

Can you dictate what God does? NEVER.

Now this is true Craig... but why would I wish to DICTATE to God?  Again, applicable to TIME and those bound to it...

How long does it take to be perfect within your own power? NEVER.

Again, you apply this word to TIME... "how LONG"... NEVER is a bogus word, for its only applications can be made in TIME... and it implies something that is ETERNAL... which has no beginning or ending...  Once time has been dissolved, NEVER as well as all things done in time will be dissolved WITH IT...  :thumbsup:

Never is a real word, it isn't bogus.

So is the word FAIRY, or the word GHOST... but these terms lie in the world of unreality... which is what TIME ends up to be (it was only created to give the Children of God, the Knowledge of Good and Evil)... ETERNITY is the only realm that is REAL for it is the realm in which GOD dwells...

As for the AION and NEVER, there is at no time in any age, that you will die if you trust in the Lord. The phrase in John 11, is "ou me eis aion apothnesko". If we translate it word for word, it say ou me="no, not" eis="in, to, into, toward, against, etc." aion = "Age" Literally says, "No no in age" Which makes no sense in English.

I am no Greek linguist, but I do know enough about foreign language (took Spanish in school, did a little study of Russian with a friend, and learned a little German while in Germany for 2.5yrs), and WORD for WORD is NOT typically how foreign languages are phrased nor translated to ENGLISH...

You and I have chased this goose around the mulberry bush a few times eh Craig?  Again, in order to find a place for DEATH it must be amongst TIME... or some form of it (i.e. aion/age, or never/at no TIME)... for only in TIME does DEATH exist... once TIME ends (on the LAST DAY = no MORE DAYS), so does all terminology that pertains to it END as well...

It actually says in Greek. "Never at any span of time."

So
John 11:26 says,
And everyone who lives and believes in Me will 'never at any span of time' die. Do you believe this?"

Thanks, you just MADE MY POINT!  :bgdance:

Just as
John 3:16 says
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not die but have eternal life."

Once again Craig... this is speaking of SPIRTUAL DEATH... not PHYSICAL... for YOU WILL DIE a PHYSICAL Death... and in that death you will be done with both TIME, and DEATH...  :thumbsup:

Never does mean never.

And GHOST means GHOST, even though there aren't any!   :pointlaugh:

Peace bro...  :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS...willieH  :gamer:

[Craig]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, but  I do not subscribe much to that theology WillieH, as it was rebutted soundly by myself and others when L Ray Smith wrote it the first time it was presented. Presently my position is held through orthodoxy and cannot be rebutted by any who have tried, this is how I know it holds to the truth. None of your objections, which you have brought up, actually apply to my belief but are strawman arguments which justify and rationalize why you believe what you do. When you find a valid argument, that is an argument which doesn't cause you to presuppose a position in order to debunk it, then I will take the time to explain my position more thoroughly. So, instead of taking the time to undo your argument. I will just leave it as it is, and let others decide what is more reasonable.


An easy question to rebuttle if never applies to time, when will never not apply to time? Or vise versa, if you say the answer is, never, you have lost your argument. :)

[Boe]

Hello Craig,
I'm not sure if you think the blasphemy mentioned of is a continual state rather than a one time action. The problem with that is blasphemeo translated as blasphemy is in the verb - aorist active subjunctive - third person singular - I believe aorist means a point in time. So I think it's singular act. This is probably irrelevant to what you're saying anyway.

I assume you're saying that this sin is a special kind of sin which does not involve Christians today, rather, it has something to do with Israel? am I correct?

So, in short I am confused a bit.

[Craig]

Hello Craig,
I'm not sure if you think the blasphemy mentioned of is a continual state rather than a one time action. The problem with that is blasphemeo translated as blasphemy is in the verb - aorist active subjunctive - third person singular - I believe aorist means a point in time. So I think it's singular act. This is probably irrelevant to what you're saying anyway.

I assume you're saying that this sin is a special kind of sin which does not involve Christians today, rather, it has something to do with Israel? am I correct?

So, in short I am confused a bit.

No, not at all. It doesn't matter the blasphemy, it doesn't matter the eternal sin. We have been taught Christianese so long, we think that these things are what we were taught. Jesus was not talking about some 'special' sin, he was prophesying against the apostate Jew, He came for the lost sheep of Israel, and those words were particularly directed against Israel.

In order to understand what Jesus was talking about, we have to understand there was a judgment against Israel, made hundreds of years later in the Valley of Ben Hinnom. In this valley, the priests, and teachers of the Law, turned from God and began to worship false gods and sacrifice their children in fires they built in Topheth [Topheth means place of burning], killing prophets that came out of Israel who prophesied against such acts. As a result, out of this valley came a judgment against Israel, that even King Josia tried to make amends by reinstating the Passover, throwing out and killing the false prophets and descrating the Topheth and the Valley of Ben Hinnom turning it into a garbage dump we all know as Gehenna. Nevertheless, the Lord's anger could not be satified and the Lord promised, that which He has said will come to pass, His anger would burn against Judah, just as Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple, he would reject them all because they rejected Him. 2 Kings 23)

So when we read Jesus talking about Gehenna, or the fires of Gehenna, or the judgment of Gehenna, he isn't talking about what the Jews used the valley for at that time, a valley where they threw their garbage and dead bodies of criminals. He was talking of the reason it was a valley they threw their garbge and dead bodies of criminals, He was there to execute the judgment against all Israel, Judah, Jerusalem, and the Temple. They were to be cut off, seperated from God.

I understand it quite well, I was a Christian for 20 years before facing the reality, that I have been taught wrong about the eternal judgments. When I confronted the crisis, I asked the Lord for wisdom and knowledge concerning this. In three days, the Lord confirmed it and then He told me not to read, or talk about, or listen to any teacher conerning UR, but that He would show me what Scripture actually said concerning all the 'questionable' passages used to enforce we are going to hell if we don't believe. He then went on to show me Gehenna, and showed me where translators replaced Gehenna with Hell. So he directed me to study Gehenna and why it came to be and who was it reserved for, etc. Out of this, I realized we have been taught so wrong from the beginning, that without a crisis of faith, and a sincere heart to search out and understand, it is very difficult to see anything than what we have been taught.

There is much more of this, but you will be told by many, that this is not what Jesus was talking about. That many of the things Jesus spoke of, concerned us as Christians. Yes his words have meaning to us today, but there are particular things in Scripture, where his words in the Gospels was a prophesy or testimony against the apostate Hebrew people.

Read this carefully, clear your mind of all presupposition and previous teachings of Christianity and see.

Malachi 4:1-5
"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them.  But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says the LORD Almighty. "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

"See, I will send you the prophet Elijah [John the Baptist] before that great and dreadful day of the LORD [Jesus Christ] comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."

Luke 24:44
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

Matthew 11:12-14
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

Luke 12:48-51
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote"Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

Matthew 15:24
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother C... :hithere:

Thanks for taking the time to reply, but  I do not subscribe much to that theology WillieH, as it was rebutted soundly by myself and others when L Ray Smith wrote it the first time it was presented. Presently my position is held through orthodoxy and cannot be rebutted by any who have tried, this is how I know it holds to the truth.

This is a lot of yadda-yadda bro... You have not "rebutted" what I have said by any means...  :Whistle:

It is a matter of Biblical reference that TIME shall end... and the only place in which DEATH is present is within TIME...

The word NEVER is only applied to TIME... and therefore, once TIME is dissolved, then, "NEVER", and all other terminology pertinent to TIME,  shall cease to be as well...

None of your objections, which you have brought up, actually apply to my belief but are strawman arguments which justify and rationalize why you believe what you do.

The very same things can be said of your words Craig...  I can show verses which state TIME shall end... JESUS stated there will be a LAST DAY (John 6:44 / John 12:32) ... if DAYS therefore end, then TIME ends with them... for DAYS are the pivitol measurement of TIME...

TIME and DAYS are THINGS Craig... 1 Pet 4:7 ...but the END of ALL THINGS is at hand...

The fact that there was a FIRST DAY, indicates BY that notation, that there will BE a LAST DAY (which was noted by CHRIST)...

In anything so noted where something is FIRST, logic dictates some part of that notation will be LAST... beginning and end... anything that has a BEGINNING, shall have an END...  We are destined to END where we BEGAN... in ETERNITY which is where we ALWAYS ARE... So simple, a child can see it...  :gsmile:  :sohappy: :gsigh:

Also... though symbolic, this end of TIME, ...is noted in Rev 10:6... The MYSTERY of GOD which should be finished, is the TEACHING of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL unto His Children...  Which is the little "Book" which tastes SWEET in the MOUTH (evil - SIN found to be pleasureable for a "season"/Time) but, afterwards makes the BELLY BITTER... (manifestations of sufferings for a TIME - see Ecc 3)

Within that MYSTERY is contained DEATH... which amounts to the absence of LIFE... which for a PERPETUAL scenario as is ETERNITY (LIFE continuous without INTERRUPTION), is found to be MYSTERIOUS...

When you find a valid argument, that is an argument which doesn't cause you to presuppose a position in order to debunk it, then I will take the time to explain my position more thoroughly.

More "hoo-ha" bro... no presupposition... I have presented my belief and displayed the LOGIC within it... you have hardly "rebutted" anything...  :laughing7:

So, instead of taking the time to undo your argument. I will just leave it as it is, and let others decide what is more reasonable.

Again... you are unable to do so, and therefore, wisely bow out from that DISABILITY... which I commend you for...  :boyheart:

An easy question to rebuttle if never applies to time, when will never not apply to time? Or vise versa, if you say the answer is, never, you have lost your argument. :)

NEVER is ONLY applied to TIME... and TIME is a speck of existence, which shall END and is only TEMPORARY... it was preceeded by ETERNITY and shall be REPLACED by ETERNITY... we END where we BEGAN (concerning "time"), and resume the state of ETERNITY where we ALWAYS ARE, only having obtained by this little sidetrack, the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... and are COMPLETED by that knowledge as PERFECT MIRROR images of YHVH... His Children, reflecting Him in EVERY WAY!  As was noted (in the BEGINNING) in Gen 3:22...

May His Peace be yours brother...  :Peace:

in  JESUS...willieH :gamer:

[Craig]

Thanks for your reply.

Your position is not relevant to the context of Jesus's words, as I have already shown what they meant without needing to into metaphysical science and rhetoric. You make it much more complicated than what Jesus was explaining to a simple people. Jesus was not expounding some philosophical theory of how time will cease at death, he was simply stating that Judah, Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple, will have committed an unforgivable sin and will be rejected by God until the whole world came in, they are guilty of an anionios judgment, a judgment that resulted in reconciliation of the whole world. To the people who were not his people, they are called the sons of God.

Again thanks for your reply.  :cloud9:

Craig

[laren]

Thanks for your reply.

Your position is not relevant to the context of Jesus's words, as I have already shown what they meant without needing to into metaphysical science and rhetoric. You make it much more complicated than what Jesus was explaining to a simple people. Jesus was not expounding some philosophical theory of how time will cease at death, he was simply stating that Judah, Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple, will have committed an unforgivable sin and will be rejected by God until the whole world came in, they are guilty of an anionios judgment, a judgment that resulted in reconciliation of the whole world. To the people who were not his people, they are called the sons of God.

Again thanks for your reply.  :cloud9:

Craig

good post Craig.  I think Romans 9-11 is a pivotal set of chapters in the whole bible.  Praise God for the "cutting off" of His people.  Reconciliation for the world.  And their recption, LIFE from the dead. 

Yahoo. 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

Thanks for your reply.

Your position is not relevant to the context of Jesus's words, as I have already shown what they meant without needing to into metaphysical science and rhetoric. You make it much more complicated than what Jesus was explaining to a simple people. Jesus was not expounding some philosophical theory of how time will cease at death, he was simply stating that Judah, Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple, will have committed an unforgivable sin and will be rejected by God until the whole world came in, they are guilty of an anionios judgment, a judgment that resulted in reconciliation of the whole world. To the people who were not his people, they are called the sons of God.

Again thanks for your reply.  :cloud9:

Craig

A SON of God Craig... is one which REFLECTS YHVH... ALL men qualify as NOT being Sons of God... It is CHRIST within, that causes that REFLECTION... not the being which is REGENERATED by that presence...

For CHRIST reflected the HOLINESS and PERFECTION of YHVH... and it is via CHRIST that all other subsequent "sons" are wrought...

Of course, you and I have thoroughly discussed this idea several times before... and though it is somewhat a redundant issue... there are readers here that must consider all options of thought, that the Lord might provide them the truth either by the presentation of those options, or that they might find the truth OUTSIDE the ones presented...

TIME is a CREATED element... which had a BEGINNING... it is therefore disqualified in the arena of ETERNITY, which has neither beginning or end...

That is has a beginning, necessitates an END, when Eternity is considered...

we could go back & forth, but (IMHO) that fact remains...

JESUS plainly noted there would be a LAST DAY (at least on 2 different occasions)... you cant get around that...

And His statement that ones who BELIEVE in Him shall "NEVER" die, is concerning SPIRITUAL BELIEF not Fleshly PHYSICALITY... for ALL MEN, continue to DIE (including believers), a PHYSICAL DEATH which is the FULFILLMENT of YHVH's words that we ARE DUST, and to the DUST we shall RETURN...

So any terms in the Word of God which are translated NEVER... are concerning themselves with SPIRIT and its applications, not PHYSICAL and its applications...

When CHRIST noted "never die"... He was speaking of SPIRIT, not flesh... and His death in the flesh, was on behalf of the SPIRIT portion of men (vessel of honor), ...not on behalf of flesh portion of men (vessel of dishonor)...

He did not DIE to save FLESH, ...which is appointed to DIE (Gen 3:19)... He died to save SPIRIT which is appointed to LIVE... (Rom 9:21-23)

Peace

In  JESUS...willieH :gamer:

[Craig]

Nothing has changed from my position, let me repeat it again.

Your position is not relevant to the context of Jesus's words, as I have already shown what they meant without needing to into metaphysical science and rhetoric. You make it much more complicated than what Jesus was explaining to a simple people. Jesus was not expounding some philosophical theory of how time will cease at death, he was simply stating that Judah, Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple, will have committed an unforgivable sin and will be rejected by God until the whole world came in, they are guilty of an anionios judgment, a judgment that resulted in reconciliation of the whole world.

[willieH]

Nothing has changed from my position, let me repeat it again.

Your position is not relevant to the context of Jesus's words, as I have already shown what they meant without needing to into metaphysical science and rhetoric. You make it much more complicated than what Jesus was explaining to a simple people. Jesus was not expounding some philosophical theory of how time will cease at death, he was simply stating that Judah, Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple, will have committed an unforgivable sin and will be rejected by God until the whole world came in, they are guilty of an anionios judgment, a judgment that resulted in reconciliation of the whole world.

:msealed:  I see in your words, ...No explanations forthcoming...  :prankster:

Peace

In  JESUS...willieH :gamer:

[Craig]

None needed, I have already explained what it meant. Your reply has no relevance to the context of Jesus's words, nor my position. Therefore not much more to go into.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi C... :hithere:

None needed, I have already explained what it meant. Your reply has no relevance to the context of Jesus's words, nor my position. Therefore not much more to go into.

I believe it is you reply that evades JESUS words...

And this is your opinion bro...  :dontknow:  You are welcome to it!  :angel4:

I have stated what I meant as well... let the readers decide...  :thumbsup:

Peace

In  JESUS...willieH :gamer:

[Boe]

Hello Craig,
before I go further, do you think the promise of eternal/age-abiding life was for Israel?

Thanks

[Boe]

Hello Craig,
before I go further, do you think the promise of believing for eternal/age-abiding life was for Israel?

Thanks

[Craig]

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

[Taffy]

I concur with Craig
but just would care if I may to add this..along with what Craig has shared

1john 2...

Blessings Taffy

[Craig]

1 John 2, is an awesome chapter, read new things there as I went through it. It really enforces the answer to the question of who the 'all liars' were who get thrown to the 'Lake of Fire'. Just as I have taught for the last 2 years.

1 John 2:3-4
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We who believe have nothing to fear from the Lake of Fire, it was never reserved for us. John was talking about a judgment against the religious peopel, who say they know him, but does not do as he commands.

[Taffy]

1 John 2, is an awesome chapter, read new things there as I went through it. It really solves the question of who the 'all liars' were who get thrown to the 'Lake of Fire'.

Amen .along with ALL Murderers.....ALL" MEN"( Flesh) are liars..
a MURDERER BY BIBLICAL DEFINITION IS one who HATES his BROTHER...

Blessings
Taffy